Hicks Placed On DL, Buxton Coming Up

[USAFChief]

Serious question - do you think that the twins management are actively trying to lose, or are you just saying that they are inept? I've seen other posts from you or others that also seem to imply that the FO aren't trying to win or are trying to lose. Just want to clarify that, perhaps I'm misinterpreting.

I don't have any idea. I just question what I view as decisions that don't seem likely to help win the most games.

 

Do you think they make mostly good decisions? Honest question.

[twinsnorth49]

 

A third different thing is to save all your chips, so that when you have a real chance to win the pot, you can stay in hand until the end. 

If you trade away prospects that you may need later, so that you whiz-away your future chances, THEN YOU ARE JUST IMPATIENT AND STUPID!

Who said anything about trading away all your chips? Did you see what quality relievers went for at the deadline? Some might say a lot less than we even paid for Jepsen.

[jimbo92107]

 

" I don't get Tonkin, he has the talent, he has velocity yet he cannot seem to put it together on the mound in the big leagues"

 

Sometimes the Success-Confidence-Success cycle is hard to break through.

Tonkin (like many others) may just doubt whether he has big league skills, and that doubt destroys confidence, which is CRUCIAL for success.

He needs to succeed (by accident, if necessary) and that success may break the cycle.

Or he needs to convince (fool?) himself with false self-confidence.

That technique has worked for many athletes in many sports.

Reminds me of the advice that you should act like what you want to be, and over time, you will become it.

[USAFChief]

I hope this was sarcasm. You really don't understand why they kept him at AAA? It could have been when he was up in June he hit .189 with a lot of stike outs, it could have been he missed a month and a half and it could have been he had only played 3 games since coming off the DL. But lets not let obvious facts cloud our judgement

If he wasn't ready then, 10 games doesn't make him ready now. If he was kept in AAA because he isn't reaxy, he shouldn't be up now. If he is ready now, he was ready 10 games ago.

[jimmer]

 

Fair enough, I can understand that sentiment. I also really hoped that they would make a big splash and try to win, and it's clear that TR is uncomfortable making those types of trades. It's frusterating.

I tend to view the lack of moves this year more as part of an overall strategy than of pure ineptitude... I just can't see us winning a World Series this year without elite level performance from multiple players, and we don't have any truly elite players right now. I think that TR is betting on Sano, Buxton and Berrios being the guys to bring us a championship. When these guys are running the show, then it will be time to add anothe frontline starter and make a real run for a championship.

I think there is a distinction between squeaking into the playoffs, and having a legitimate championship contending team. I don't think adding Tulo and price would have made us a legitimate contender for the series.

If TR ever made anything close to a bold move at the trade deadline in any of his years as GM, one might be somewhat inclined to believe it was part of an overall strategy.  He's had plenty of times where he could have taken an actual very good team and made it better for a playoff run and didn't. So I think it's less about picking his time as opposed to it just not being who he is.

 

And adding talent to the roster shouldn't have to happen ONLY when we are serious W Series contenders.  First, there's no guarantee if/when that ever happens and the more talent you get, the closer you get to being true W Series contenders.

[USAFChief]

Well since the starting staff, save for Santana today, hasn't been able to make it past the 5th inning for the last two weeks. That typically wears out a bullpen, so yea 13 pitchers does make some sense. Shane Robinson is a 4th outfielder... I'm not sure what your point is. Who would you have in his place (not including Buxton or Kepler because he needs to play every day?)

one reason the bullpen is worn out was the decision to start May last Friday. That's what I would call a decision that makes me question if they are trying to win.

[jimmer]

 

Who said anything about trading away all your chips? Did you see what quality relievers went for at the deadline? Some might say a lot less than we even paid for Jepsen.

Most of the quality players that switched hands did so at not such big cost. Price was probably the most expensive and it didn't cost Toronto a Berrios, Sano or Buxton type.

[SF Twins Fan]

 

If he wasn't ready then, 10 games doesn't make him ready now. If he was kept in AAA because he isn't reaxy, he shouldn't be up now. If he is ready now, he was ready 10 games ago.

Yea typically 10 games isn't a player ready, however Buxton isn't your everyday minor leaguer.  I'm assuming it had more to do with him being rusty vs. not actually being ready for the majors.  What was wrong with keeping him at AAA for more than 3 games so he could build up confidence after not playing for a month and a half?  And over the last 10 games he's proven to not be rusty and it hitting .400 with a 13 game hitting streak.

[Bark's Lounge]

 

Well since the starting staff, save for Santana today, hasn't been able to make it past the 5th inning for the last two weeks. That typically wears out a bullpen, so yea 13 pitchers does make some sense.  Shane Robinson is a 4th outfielder... I'm not sure what your point is.  Who would you have in his place (not including Buxton or Kepler because he needs to play every day?)

The concept is this: You don't need a traditional 4th Outfielder with Buxton, Rosario, Hicks or Hunter. You have a rotation using the matchups to your advantage. No outfielder would miss more than a start or two per week and if someone is going to sit, it should be 40 year old Hunter. Important to note: Hicks can play the other OF positions, he is not glued to CF.

 

Also, you can get creative in the IF - for example: Hunter or Mauer on bench or DH, Plouffe to 1B, Sano to 3B, etc., etc...

 

No offense to Robinson, but there is no need for him when we have those other 4 guys. Buxton could certainly struggle again, but he needs to get up to speed up here, take his licks and be more prepared for the 2016 season.

[SwainZag]

 

Most of the quality players that switched hands did so at not such big cost. Price was probably the most expensive and it didn't cost Toronto a Berrios, Sano or Buxton type.

 

Norris was a Top 20 spec before the season by Baseball America and MLB.com...and he's a 2 month rental.

[SF Twins Fan]

 

one reason the bullpen is worn out was the decision to start May last Friday. That's what I would call a decision that makes me question if they are trying to win.

I'd agree with this 100%.  It really hurt not having May in the bullpen for the first 2 games of the Yankee series.

[sane]

"it didn't cost Toronto a Berrios, Sano or Buxton type".

ANY prospect given up in trade today is not going to help the Twins in the future!

[twinsnorth49]

 

Well since the starting staff, save for Santana today, hasn't been able to make it past the 5th inning for the last two weeks. That typically wears out a bullpen, so yea 13 pitchers does make some sense.  Shane Robinson is a 4th outfielder... I'm not sure what your point is.  Who would you have in his place (not including Buxton or Kepler because he needs to play every day?)

Self inflicted by the May spot start, followed by a planned short start by Duffey, followed by a BP start. This team has had an 8 man pen for the better part of the year and for the most part it's been unnecessary, but I guess if pointing to a lousy rotation is your defense of it, ok then, score one for TR.

 

To add, if they didn't feel the need to cart around an 8 man pen, there might actually be room for Buxton and Robinson on this roster. As has been stated ad nauseam  elsewhere, there is plenty of playing time between Hunter and Mauer days off for Buxton to get plenty of playing time every week. At least, there should be.

[jimmer]

 

Norris was a Top 20 spec before the season by Baseball America and MLB.com...and he's a 2 month rental.

The best prospect traded and look at all the talent that moved.  

[SF Twins Fan]

 

The concept is this: You don't need a traditional 4th Outfielder with Buxton, Rosario, Hicks or Hunter. You have a rotation using the matchups to your advantage. No outfielder would miss more than a start or two per week and if someone is going to sit, it should be 40 year old Hunter. Important to note: Hicks can play the other OF positions, he is not glued to CF.

 

Also, you can get creative in the IF - for example: Hunter or Mauer on bench or DH, Plouffe to 1B, Sano to 3B, etc., etc...

 

No offense to Robinson, but there is no need for him when we have those other 4 guys. Buxton could certainly struggle again, but he needs to get up to speed up here, take his licks and be more prepared for the 2016 season.

I agree, but being upset that after 3 games in AAA they kept him down there to gain his timing and confidence back to me is ridiculous.  He could easily stay up for the rest of the season and once Hicks comes back from the DL the outfield should be Rosario, Buxton and Hicks with Hunter playing a couple of games a week.

[Twins7]

I don't have any idea. I just question what I view as decisions that don't seem likely to help win the most games.

Do you think they make mostly good decisions? Honest question.

Maybe, it's hard to say. I also get pretty frusterated with a lot of their moves, especially with the bullpen, Mauer and hunter's place in the lineup, and buxton/Arcia sitting in AAA with Robinson getting starts. I just hesitate to label any move good or bad, when each individual move is so nuanced and requires so much information. I haven't been seeing Arcia or Buxton hit, I don't know how Boyer and fiens stuff looks relative to tonkins and oliveros, and I don't understand all the reasoning behind May over pelfrey in the rotation (manage innings/bullpen crumbling/veteran seniority). I just don't think I know enough to make the claim that the management doesn't know what they are doing or that they should get the benefit of the doubt on every decision.

 

Someone has to ultimately make that judgement (pohlad), and I think it's critical that that judgement is made correctly. Even in hindsight, it's not always obvious that a decision was bad or good, especially if I can only speculate at the reasoning behind it. I do enjoy speculating, though, and I hate seeing the twins give up their lead in the standings.

[sane]

 

Who said anything about trading away all your chips?

Nobody said that.

I said it would be a mistake to trade away ANY chips that you may need later to win a pot WHEN YOU ACTUALLY HAVE THE CARDS TO WIN A POT!!!

[twinsnorth49]

 

"it didn't cost Toronto a Berrios, Sano or Buxton type".

ANY prospect given up in trade today is not going to help the Twins in the future!

It wouldn't have cost anywhere near any of those three to improve the pen. On another note, you can't keep every prospect hoping someday he turns into a MLB player, just isn't going to happen.

[SwainZag]

 

The best prospect traded and look at all the talent that moved.  

Yes, you said it didn't cost them a "Berrios, Sano or Buxton."  Norris was rated higher than Berrios so......indeed it cost them a "Berrios."  

[jimmer]

 

It wouldn't have cost anywhere near any of those three to improve the pen. On another note, you can't keep every prospect hoping someday he turns into a MLB player, just isn't going to happen.

There is only so much room on the 25 man roster and the bust rate of even the highest prospects is pretty high.  

[SF Twins Fan]

 

Self inflicted by the May spot start, followed by a planned short start by Duffey, followed by a BP start. This team has had an 8 man pen for the better part of the year and for the most part it's been unnecessary, but I guess if pointing to a lousy rotation is your defense of it, ok then, score one for TR.

 

To add, if they didn't feel the need to cart around an 8 man pen, there might actually be room for Buxton and Robinson on this roster. As has been stated ad nauseam  elsewhere, there is plenty of playing time between Hunter and Mauer days off for Buxton to get plenty of playing time every week. At least, there should be.

You say score 1 for TR.  Our starting rotation was better than average the first half of the season.  And if today was any indication of how Santana can pitch it's tough to blame TR for Santana missing the first half of the season, which would have made our SP numbers even better.  They called Buxton up earlier in the season though, so they tried to get him up and get experience.  He then played pourly, struck out at a high rate and got injured. They brought him back and placed him in AAA so he could get his timing and confidence back....seems pretty logical to me.  He is now being brought back up after playing very well for 2 weeks at AAA and will most likely stay for the rest of the season.

[jimmer]

 

Yes, you said it didn't cost them a "Berrios, Sano or Buxton."  Norris was rated higher than Berrios so......indeed it cost them a "Berrios."  

Yes, Berrios and Norris were right there.  Cool. (and Norris has sucked this year, BTW.  Berrios, not so much). I did point out that was the highest price paid. Doesn't change the point. People keep tossing out how trading Buxton and Sano for an upgrade to make the playoffs this year would have been horrible.  They use those two names most.  And no one that good was traded even with all the quality moved.

 

And, also, not one Twins fan I read who pushed for trades suggested trading for a one year rental.

[Twins7]

If TR ever made anything close to a bold move at the trade deadline in any of his years as GM, one might be somewhat inclined to believe it was part of an overall strategy.  He's had plenty of times where he could have taken an actual very good team and made it better for a playoff run and didn't. So I think it's less about picking his time as opposed to it just not being who he is.

 

And adding talent to the roster shouldn't have to happen ONLY when we are serious W Series contenders.  First, there's no guarantee if/when that ever happens and the more talent you get, the closer you get to being true W Series contenders.

I agree, and I wish that TR would have signed Russell Martin and a higher caliber pitcher before this year. I think Santana was a decent signing, though; he had a sub 3 era season not long ago, and there was a chance we'd catch lightning in a bottle there.

 

I also think that TR's tendency to avoid signing big name free agents - guys that make 100mil or more - is more a function of Pohlads frugality than an overall strategy by TR. If TR were the Yankees or dodgers GM, I'd bet he would have taken on a lot more big talents than he has now. I just think his strategy reflects his resources more than his intelligence.

[twinsnorth49]

 

You say score 1 for TR.  Our starting rotation was better than average the first half of the season.  And if today was any indication of how Santana can pitch it's tough to blame TR for Santana missing the first half of the season, which would have made our SP numbers even better.  They called Buxton up earlier in the season though, so they tried to get him up and get experience.  He then played pourly, struck out at a high rate and got injured. They brought him back and placed him in AAA so he could get his timing and confidence back....seems pretty logical to me.  He is now being brought back up after playing very well for 2 weeks at AAA and will most likely stay for the rest of the season.

Pelfrey? Pulling May out of the roation when his peripherals were the best on the club? The Nolasco deal? Yes our starting pitching was better than average in the first half but there were many indicators it wasn't going to sustain itself, even more so with the pen.

 

Buxton should have remained with the Twins and a reliever optioned or released, at the very least it puts a capable player on the bench. Whatever he needed to get back up to speed on could have been done in Minnesota imo.

[LaBombo]

 

I hope this was sarcasm. You really don't understand why they kept him at AAA? It could have been when he was up in June he hit .189 with a lot of stike outs, it could have been he missed a month and a half and it could have been he had only played 3 games since coming off the DL. But lets not let obvious facts cloud our judgement

 

Nothing you said differentiates the way the Twins are handling Buxton from the way you'd handle an AAAA journeyman whose organizational role is outfield depth.

 

Buxton was called up when Hicks was hurt.     He was DL'ed when he was hurt.     With both Buxton and Hicks healthy, Buxton was demoted.    With Hicks hurt again,   Buxton is back up to the majors.

 

Of course the Twins don't really regard Buxton as a quad A player.    But they're treating him like one by using him as an injury sub.

 

Yes, there have been injuries, but to argue that extraordinary circumstances have forced the Twins into desperate measures in center field is to argue that they've been the victim of multiple lighting strikes at the same position over the past three seasons    (steaming bowl of Clete Thomas, anyone?).

[jimmer]

 

I agree, and I wish that TR would have signed Russell Martin and a higher caliber pitcher before this year. I think Santana was a decent signing, though; he had a sub 3 era season not long ago, and there was a chance we'd catch lightning in a bottle there.

I also think that TR's tendency to avoid signing big name free agents - guys that make 100mil or more - is more a function of Pohlads frugality than an overall strategy by TR. If TR were the Yankees or dodgers GM, I'd bet he would have taken on a lot more big talents than he has now. I just think his strategy reflects his resources more than his intelligence.

I have never once questioned his intelligence.  I question his nature in regards to it being a good fit in today's game.

[SwainZag]

 

Nothing you said differentiates the way the Twins are handling Buxton from the way you'd handle an AAAA journeyman whose organizational role is outfield depth.

 

Buxton was called up when Hicks was hurt.     He was DL'ed when he was hurt.     With both Buxton and Hicks healthy, Buxton was demoted.    With Hicks hurt again,   Buxton is back up to the majors.

 

Of course the Twins don't really regard Buxton as a quad A player.    But they're treating him like one by using him as an injury sub.

 

Yes, there have been injuries, but to argue that extraordinary circumstances have forced the Twins into desperate measures in center field is to argue that they've been the victim of multiple lighting strikes at  the same position over the past three seasons    (steaming bowl of Clete Thomas, anyone?).

 

Let's use some context.  He was in AAA for exactly 13 games following a 5-6 finger injury kept him out of the lineup.  He was also only on the big league club for 11 games and struggled mightily with the bat.  There is a lot more than went into those decisions other than, "they are treating him like an injury replacement."  

 

Clete Thomas....such a good baseball name, such a poor baseball player.

[SF Twins Fan]

 

Pelfrey? Pulling May out of the roation when his peripherals were the best on the club? The Nolasco deal? Yes our starting pitching was better than average in the first half but there were many indicators it wasn't going to sustain itself, even more so with the pen.

 

Buxton should have remained with the Twins and a reliever optioned or released, at the very least it puts a capable player on the bench. Whatever he needed to get back up to speed on could have been done in Minnesota imo.

They were in a push for the playoffs 2 weeks ago.  I'm sorry but no GM or manager on ANY team would bring back a rookie player (who only played in 10 games and played poorly) after not playing for a month and a half.  If you think that was what was best for Buxton's development then I'm glad you're not making the decisions for the Twins.  The correct action for his development is to send him down to the minors to get his timing right.  No star players in the majors ever come back after  month and a half and go right to the majors and you want to do that to a rookie?

[nicksaviking]

I haven't seen anyone mention what Hicks' injury is?  I didn't see the game, what's going on with him?

 

Also, Daniel Norris is way overrated from my view.  A 91 MPH fastball and a mere 2.59 K/BB rate in the minors?  That's the kind of stuff that tends to get results in the minors that major leaguers just laugh at.  Toronto knew what they were doing.

[Craig Arko]

I haven't seen anyone mention what Hicks' injury is?  I didn't see the game, what's going on with him?

 

Also, Daniel Norris is way overrated from my view.  A 91 MPH fastball and a mere 2.59 K/BB rate in the minors?  That's the kind of stuff that tends to get results in the minors that major leaguers just laugh at.  Toronto knew what they were doing.

Hamstring, I think.