Pelfrey needs a big start

[drjim]

 

More fragile flower nonsense, if they really believe that.   Purposely reducing the chances to win winnable games- like last Sunday and yesterday is indefensible.

 

May in 2015- 

 

K% in High Lev-   27% 

K% w/ RISP and 2 outs-  22% 

Slashline w/ RISP and 2 outs-  .200/.250/.367 

 

More stats that look pretty but have nothing to do with the reality of how they are going to use May in the immediate future.

 

He isn't going to warm up quick and enter with runners on base.

[Linus]

 

As Perkins and May are the only bullpen members with any reasonable ability to strike batters out, I would think they would be the only logical pitchers to bring in with runners in scoring position. 

 

I saw May in a bases loaded jam with no outs and with runners on 1st and 3rd with no outs in two of his last four starts.  He got out of both giving up nary a run and getting 5Ks in the process.  I'd say he's been in similar pressure situations before.

I completely agree with your observations about the ability to get a strikeout when needed.  I think the concern with bringing him in the middle of an inning is that he would have to get ready in a really short period of time (even compared to when they know he will start an inning clean) and if he can't do it, then the risk of injury goes way up.  None of us want to see that.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I completely agree with your observations about the ability to get a strikeout when needed.  I think the concern with bringing him in the middle of an inning is that he would have to get ready in a really short period of time (even compared to when they know he will start an inning clean) and if he can't do it, then the risk of injury goes way up.  None of us want to see that.

 

he could have been warming up at the start of the inning.......

[drjim]

 

I completely agree with your observations about the ability to get a strikeout when needed.  I think the concern with bringing him in the middle of an inning is that he would have to get ready in a really short period of time (even compared to when they know he will start an inning clean) and if he can't do it, then the risk of injury goes way up.  None of us want to see that.

 

Yes

[drjim]

 

he could have been warming up at the start of the inning.......

 

So now you want him to potentially start warming up multiple times a night?

 

Keep going around and around, they aren't going to use May this way.

[Mike Sixel]

 

So now you want him to potentially start warming up multiple times a night?

 

Keep going around and around, they aren't going to use May this way.

 

It was the 8th inning......so, no, I don't think that was the issue here.

 

And, if they aren't going to use him, he should be in AAA, and someone should be up here that will be allowed to pitch.

[jokin]

 

More stats that look pretty but have nothing to do with the reality of how they are going to use May in the immediate future.

 

He isn't going to warm up quick and enter with runners on base.

 

he could have been warming up at the start of the inning.......

 

He SHOULD have been warming up at the start of the inning.

It was a TIE. GAME.  That was exactly the situation you want May at the ready.

[jokin]

 

 

So now you want him to potentially start warming up multiple times a night?

 

Keep going around and around, they aren't going to use May this way.

 

You're just digging deeper and deeper here.   This is a defense of the indefensible for a team-

 

in the thick of a pennant race,

against a prime competitor and defending AL Central champ,

with a chance to beat their Ace,

in a very winnable game once you get to their pen.

[jimmer]

 

Clearly not.

 

I suppose they could have sent him back to AAA.

May didn't have to be the one sent to the pen.

[drjim]

 

You're just digging deeper and deeper here.   This is a defense of the indefensible for a team-

 

in the thick of a pennant race,

against a prime competitor and defending AL Central champ,

with a chance to beat their Ace,

in a very winnable game once you get to their pen.

 

I'm not digging deeper and deeper. I'm stating very clearly what the Twins are doing with May and why. It's really not my concern if you (and others) accept that.

 

The Twins have guys for the role you wanted for May last night, they just aren't very good. May, at this moment, has nothing to do with that. I personally hope the Twins upgrade their primary setup guys. It is not going to be May.

 

If the Twins had sent May to the minors to continue starting, they would have called up a different reliever they also would not have used ahead of Boyer in that situation. May is going to be used under pretty strict guidelines in the immediate future. Maybe it will change. Ideally he goes back in the rotation.

[drjim]

 

May didn't have to be the one sent to the pen.

 

On this I agree. Still has nothing to do with last night.

[jimmer]

 

On this I agree. Still has nothing to do with last night.

no, but it does have to do with whether or not the Twins want him in the pen....

[SwainZag]

 

You're just digging deeper and deeper here.   This is a defense of the indefensible for a team-

 

in the thick of a pennant race,

against a prime competitor and defending AL Central champ,

with a chance to beat their Ace,

in a very winnable game once you get to their pen.

 

And the offense went 2-13 against said ace with RISP.  Argue all we want about not using May, they aren't going to win scoring 2 runs regardless if May pitched the 8th or not.

[jokin]

 

And the offense went 2-13 against said ace with RISP.  Argue all we want about not using May, they aren't going to win scoring 2 runs regardless if May pitched the 8th or not.

 

Not relevant or an accurate description of the situation.   The score could have been effectively 0-0 once Price left the game.    With May and Perkins vs. Detroit pen-

 

Advantage:   MN Twins.

 

They had a chance to steal a game where the odds were against them and were destined to lose given Price's history vs. the Twins.   A team going for a playoff spot has to seize those types of opportunities.

[Mike Sixel]

 

And the offense went 2-13 against said ace with RISP.  Argue all we want about not using May, they aren't going to win scoring 2 runs regardless if May pitched the 8th or not.

 

That has nothing to do with how the Twins used their pitchers.....

[gil4]

 

But you can't let your starter lose the game in the 8th. You just cant.

That depends on who your starter is and how many pitches he has thrown.

 

If it's an elite starter and under 100 pitcher, he gets another inning.  If it's Pelfrey and he's close to 100, he doesn't. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

He SHOULD have been warming up at the start of the inning.

It was a TIE. GAME. That was exactly the situation you want May at the ready.

Hard to argue with this. And May could have walked the first batter as "warmup". It wouldn't have mattered.

[LaBombo]

 

And the offense went 2-13 against said ace with RISP.  Argue all we want about not using May, they aren't going to win scoring 2 runs regardless if May pitched the 8th or not.

 

The offense shares the blame for the loss.    But there are two pretty big differences.

 

One is that Pelfrey and the the bullpen were being asked to contain Marc Krauss, Anthony Gose, and Jose Iglesias in the 8th.    The offense was being asked to score against David F. Price for all but the last 3 outs.

 

The other difference was that the offense didn't have one of its best hitters on the bench for no discernible reason.

 

[drjim]

 

no, but it does have to do with whether or not the Twins want him in the pen....

 

I have no idea what you're talking about, but carry on.

[drjim]

 

Hard to argue with this. And May could have walked the first batter as "warmup". It wouldn't have mattered.

 

This is your solution?

[jimmer]

 

I have no idea what you're talking about, but carry on.

sorry you are having a hard time following the conversation you and i were having which, in the case of this particular conversation, started with this quote from you, 'I imagine the Twins prefer he wasn't in the pen. So yes.'

 

to which I responded, 'if they preferred he wasn't in the pen, he wouldn't be in the pen.' and the discussion went from there (as we follow the quotes each of us responded to).

 

Then you said, 'Clearly not. I suppose they could have sent him back to AAA.'

 

I said, 'May didn't have to be the one sent to the pen.'

 

you said 'On this I agree. Still has nothing to do with last night.'

 

then I said, 'no, but it does have to do with whether or not the Twins want him in the pen...' Which tied it back to when you said, at the beginning, ''I imagine the Twins prefer he wasn't in the pen'

[Brock Beauchamp]

This is your solution?

It's not a solution. There were several ways to get May into that game - he's pitched one day of the last nine - and none of them were used.

 

In a bullpen as shoddy as the Twins, they can't afford to waste an arm as talented as May. I don't care how you get him in a game but he needs to get in there at some point. If that means pulling Pelfrey after seven so May can start the eighth fresh and pitch two innings, that's fine.

[drjim]

 

sorry you are having a hard time following the conversation you and i were having which, in the case of this particular conversation, started with this quote from you, 'I imagine the Twins prefer he wasn't in the pen. So yes.'

 

to which I responded, 'if they preferred he wasn't in the pen, he wouldn't be in the pen.' and the discussion went from there (as we follow the quotes each of us responded to).

 

Then you said, 'Clearly not. I suppose they could have sent him back to AAA.'

 

I said, 'May didn't have to be the one sent to the pen.'

 

you said 'On this I agree. Still has nothing to do with last night.'

 

then I said, 'no, but it does have to do with whether or not the Twins want him in the pen...' Which tied it back to when you said, at the beginning, ''I imagine the Twins prefer he wasn't in the pen'

 

I still don't understand what you are getting at.

 

The Twins don't want him in the pen. He has developed as a starter and proven that he can be effective in that role and has upside going forward. I imagine they will get him back there one way or another very shortly. He got caught in a short term crunch that necessitated one starter moving to the pen - for a variety of reasons they chose May. I would have preferred someone else but don't think it's especially egregious, and Pelfrey, who would have been the alternative pitched perfectly fine yesterday.

 

So May could go to the pen for a brief time or go back to AAA. Twins wisely kept him in the majors, but since this is clearly a short term assignment they aren't going to suddenly throw him into situations where he has short warmups and enter with runners on base. That would jeopardize health and the plan to return him to the rotation soon.

 

I personally think all of this is obvious. Again, I ask, what are you getting at?

[drjim]

 

It's not a solution. There were several ways to get May into that game - he's pitched one day of the last nine - and none of them were used.

In a bullpen as shoddy as the Twins, they can't afford to waste an arm as talented as May. I don't care how you get him in a game but he needs to get in there at some point. If that means pulling Pelfrey after seven so May can start the eighth fresh and pitch two innings, that's fine.

 

I would have supported starting the 8th, could have gone multiple innings. But bringing him in once Pelfrey started the inning was a no go.

[LaBombo]

 

then I said, 'no, but it does have to do with whether or not the Twins want him in the pen...' Which tied it back to when you said, at the beginning, ''I imagine the Twins prefer he wasn't in the pen'

 

... and then I said "Grave danger?", and then you said "Is there any other kind?"

 

 

Get what jimmer is saying, just my pop culture Tourette's acting up again.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I would have supported starting the 8th, could have gone multiple innings. But bringing him in once Pelfrey started the inning was a no go.

That's fair. But it's not as if a tie game was suddenly thrust upon Molitor. He could have planned it out a bit and got May in there easily. Based on past experience, he would have used Perkins in the ninth at home in a tie game. Because you can't plan out 3-4 innings, the logical move was to push back Perkins and get May in there for at least one inning, maybe two and go from there.

 

No matter how you examine it, putting a guy who can't miss bats in over all of those guys was sloppy management. Boyer should have been an 11th inning last resort, not the first choice.

[LaBombo]

 

But bringing him in once Pelfrey started the inning was a no go.

 

 

If Molitor doesn't warm up May unless he's almost certain to pitch, doesn't bring him in except to start an inning, and if Molitor is like most managers and won't pull a starter in a situation like Pelfrey to start the 8th (looked ok in the 7th, 92 pitches), then that leaves an awfully narrow subset of game circumstances for May to pitch meaningful innings.

[drjim]

If Molitor doesn't warm up May unless he's almost certain to pitch, doesn't bring him in except to start an inning, and if Molitor is like most managers and won't pull a starter in a situation like Pelfrey to start the 8th (looked ok in the 7th, 92 pitches), then that leaves an awfully narrow subset of game circumstances for May to pitch meaningful innings.

Indeed it does. Though Molitor might give a quicker hook next time.

[h2oface]

Pelfrey needs to make one pitch, and get one more strike, and then Molitor made a great decision. 2 out, and a 2-2 count on Kinsler. Instead, Pelfrey hung another sinker, served another meatball to Kinsler, and the game turned. All night Pelfrey was giving up a lead off hit (5 out of 8 innings), and this 8th was no exception. Hicks missed the tough catch in the 8th (he has made a lot tougher catches) that would have changed the game a bit, (and Gose was the go ahead run....) and Pelfrey still had only one strike to get to get out of yet another inning. But he hung another sinker to the same guy that homered on the second pitch of the game that was also right down Broadway. Pelfrey needs to make that pitch. Price was the best of the night in the 8th, and with 10 more pitches at the start of the inning than Pelfrey. Price made the pitches to Sano and Hunter and Nunez - got 'em all with a change. Pelfrey needs to make those pitches, too. Pelfrey's ERA will soon be over 5 for the season, I think, even though he started so well. This is Pelfrey. 3 years of hope and people are still hoping. But this is Pelfrey, not Price.

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

Pelfrey needs to make one pitch, and get one more strike, and then Molitor made a great decision. 2 out, and a 2-2 count on Kinsler. Instead, Pelfrey hung another sinker, served another meatball to Kinsler, and the game turned. All night Pelfrey was giving up a lead off hit (5 out of 8 innings), and this 8th was no exception. Hicks missed the tough catch in the 8th (he has made a lot tougher catches) that would have changed the game a bit, (and Gose was the go ahead run....) and Pelfrey still had only one strike to get to get out of yet another inning. But he hung another sinker to the same guy that homered on the second pitch of the game that was also right down Broadway. Pelfrey needs to make that pitch. Price was the best of the night in the 8th, and with 10 more pitches at the start of the inning than Pelfrey. Price made the pitches to Sano and Hunter and Nunez - got 'em all with a change. Pelfrey needs to make those pitches, too. Pelfrey's ERA will soon be over 5 for the season, I think, even though he started so well. This is Pelfrey. 3 years of hope and people are still hoping. But this is Pelfrey, not Price.

Good analysis all around but I think it's a bit unfair to compare Pelfrey to Price and say "he needs to make that pitch". If Pelfrey was capable of being David Price on a nightly basis, he'd be paid a hell of a lot more than $5m.

 

Mike Pelfrey, at his very best, is a #3 starter. On a nightly basis, the good Mike Pelfrey is more like a #4, maybe even a #5. The bad Mike Pelfrey, well... We all know what he is.

 

Anyway, expecting a #3/4/5 starter to match Price's 2 ER isn't reasonable. Pelfrey did his job and it was up to the offense and bullpen to help him out a little. They didn't.