Comparing to a year ago

[stringer bell]

I am not satisfied with the results for the Twins in 2014.  They will improve in the W-L by somewhere between 3 and 5 games.  Relative to the league, their hitting has improved, but pitching has remained near the bottom of the league.  Metrics rate the defense as poor, especially the outfield.

 

However, the club has made some strides IMHO.  They have gotten above-average play from everyone in their infield except for the first baseman.  They have gotten a very good year out of two free-agent signees.  They have brought up two players from the minor leagues who have played regularly since their recall.

 

A year ago, the club was playing out the string and using mostly players who didn't figure in their plans for 2014, much less when the club would be a contender.  Not one pitcher had established himself as a fixture in the rotation and only Brian Dozier had established himself as a major league regular.  There has been progress.  The core for contending teams is either on the team or within sight.

[Seth Stohs]

I 100% agree... this September is much different than last September. There are a lot more reasons for optimism. Arcia seemed to take a step in the last 4-6 weeks. Santana and Vargas has shown what they can do and will fight to avoid sophomore slumps. Dozier and Plouffe solidified their careers. Suzuki had a great first 2/3 of the season. They did a great job with the in-season claims of Fuld and Schafer And, of course, Phil Hughes amazing. Perkins, Fien and Duensing (and also Thielbar) were all terrific for the first 2/3 of the season. There are a lot of positives.

 

Ricky Nolasco will be better. Sano and Meyer should appear in 2015, maybe even Buxton and Berrios. They handled Trevor May perfectly and he took off after his brutal first three strikes. His peripherals since then are remarkable. 

 

So yeah, I feel better going into 2015 than I did going into 2014, to be sure. 

[RedBull34]

Still not sure what Hicks is, but he looks better this time around.  If he turns out to be useful, he could make a very intimidating OF.  He did have a 259/344/296 line in Sep. so he's not so atrocious this time around.

[stringer bell]

On Hicks, I thought TR made some good points during last night game broadcast.  He is a big, athletic young man, and he has not driven the ball.  I still don't see a developed hit tool at this point.  He has a good eye, but sometimes is too passive.  I'm not ready to believe in him as a major leaguer.

[Badsmerf]

Lol, when a 640 ops is improving.... you got yourself a problem.

 

Seth, I continue to disagree with your opinion if the handling of May, but agree with the rest of your points.

 

Compared to a year ago, I call this season a disappointment. There was more talent in this team and more positivity.... yet they still amassed 90 losses. I was expecting better.

[USAFChief]

Until the pitching improves, the rest is nice but won't have much effect on the W-L record.

 

I hope to be more optimistic about the pitching by spring training.

[Thrylos]

I have to see what they do this off-season (i.e. if they will hold people accountable for 99+96+96+91+,) see how the team feels in Spring Training and then I would form an opinion about 2015. 

But I know one thing:

 

Every single Twins official or player who says something close to that they did better this year, it was a better season and the like, should be fired/cut/traded/tarred/feathered...

[Platoon]

I have to see what they do this off-season (i.e. if they will hold people accountable for 99+96+96+91+,) see how the team feels in Spring Training and then I would form an opinion about 2015. 

 

But I know one thing:

 

Every single Twins official or player who says something close to that they did better this year, it was a better season and the like, should be fired/cut/traded/tarred/feathered...

Or all of the above. if they keep this group of coaches, it's going to be hard to take. 4 years of this is enough. And it's not possible to point to all the improved players, and performances, without wondering why the results are the same. I do think the talent has improved, so why hasn't either the results improved, or the management changed? Lastly, there was Gardy's remarks about bunting at his presser last night! "Ha ha"? Kinda childish! And his comments on Santanna. After almost a whole year, still no plan for him? Not to speak of, we want him to take pitches in the lead off roll, but hit one early in the count if it's fat. Unsaid was, it better be hit well, or else!

[bird]

Lol, when a 640 ops is improving.... you got yourself a problem.

 

Seth, I continue to disagree with your opinion if the handling of May, but agree with the rest of your points.

 

Compared to a year ago, I call this season a disappointment. There was more talent in this team and more positivity.... yet they still amassed 90 losses. I was expecting better.

I expected them to be 3-4 wins better, record-wise. The four primary reasons they came up short are Mauer, Nolasco, Buxton, and Sano.

[Kwak]

Ah yes, sell hope.  It doesn't cost much to do so, and is so reassuring.  Yet so little has changed.  Part of the "winning formula" of the previous decade was to "pound the strike-zone" with the starters (trusting in 'stuff' ..." and use lots of relief pitchers to gain a "match-up advantage" in the late innings.  But things have changed.  "Cheap pitching" doesn't work--unless he's a newly-promoted, Twins-draftee (and there are lots of those guys).  A line-up of below standard fielders because "they hit" is a double-edged sword--and the Twins have felt that sharp edge repeatedly.  Yet, the Twins cling to selling hope and above all--defend the status quo.

 

It is true, someday the Twins will win their division.  But it will be due to the fortuitious conditions where Detroit blew-up it's roster due to cost and age (ala` CLE after 2001), and the other three repeated their struggles all in the same season sort of like CHI in '00, and CLE in '07--one-year aberrations.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Perhaps better compared to a year ago, but what about compared to this past June? When fans were discussing the possibility of an 85 win season and Terry Ryan signed Morales with the proclamation "Why not us?"

[Thrylos]

I expected them to be 3-4 wins better, record-wise. The four primary reasons they came up short are Mauer, Nolasco, Buxton, and Sano.

 

Those are symptoms of the big problem...    I could say that some other symptoms are: Kubel, Willingham, Correia, Fuld, Morales, Pelfrey, Burton, Anderson, Vavra, Florimon, Gardenhire (add them on)

 

And I do not think that anyone could have expected Buxton to be ready (even if healthy) for the bigs this season.

[Thrylos]

Perhaps better compared to a year ago, but what about compared to this past June? When fans were discussing the possibility of an 85 win season and Terry Ryan signed Morales with the proclamation "Why not us?"

 

Ryan signed Morales, instead of promoting Vargas, and Gardy was playing 2 DHs at the corner OF positions and SSs at CF.

[gunnarthor]

I figure the Twins are more or less on the normal path of rebuilding, sans throwing a sacrificial lamb to the masses.  Honestly, what did other teams do?  Every team in the AL has gone through these cycles - good for a bit, bad for a bit.  Except for those who could buy their way out of it.  What the Twins are doing is no different than what other teams do. They bring up young players, hope they catch on, augment with FA signings.  Ryan has done it before and is doing it now. 

[jokin]

Those are symptoms of the big problem...    I could say that some other symptoms are: Kubel, Willingham, Correia, Fuld, Morales, Pelfrey, Burton, Anderson, Vavra, Florimon, Gardenhire (add them on)

 

And I do not think that anyone could have expected Buxton to be ready (even if healthy) for the bigs this season.

Fuld was never part of the problem while he was here.  He gave a net performance level well above his 4th OFer skill level all the time he was here.

[Platoon]

I figure the Twins are more or less on the normal path of rebuilding, sans throwing a sacrificial lamb to the masses.  Honestly, what did other teams do?  Every team in the AL has gone through these cycles - good for a bit, bad for a bit.  Except for those who could buy their way out of it.  What the Twins are doing is no different than what other teams do. They bring up young players, hope they catch on, augment with FA signings.  Ryan has done it before and is doing it now.

 

I concede the cyclical point, it's why the draft is in inverse order. And other teams have done -90 four times in a row, but NO other team, with the exception of when the manager was also the owner, has maintained the status quo into the 5th year. I am not saying Gardy cannot manage, I am saying he is not innovative and flexible enough to deal with the fluid situation that is/will be the Twins. His getting away with that bunt last night did not prove his intelligence. Bunting early for a run(s) with a fill in pitcher starting in Detroit is not a great idea. Unlike some others on TD, I am not categoriely opposed to the bunt. But never in that situation!

[Thrylos]

I figure the Twins are more or less on the normal path of rebuilding, sans throwing a sacrificial lamb to the masses.  Honestly, what did other teams do?  Every team in the AL has gone through these cycles - good for a bit, bad for a bit.  Except for those who could buy their way out of it.  What the Twins are doing is no different than what other teams do. They bring up young players, hope they catch on, augment with FA signings.  Ryan has done it before and is doing it now. 

 

Ryan led the Twins in how many World Series?  Agreed. He is doing now what he has done before when he destroyed the championship team that Macphail build, and engineered the team to be contracted. 

 

Look at what the Red Sox did in 2013, the Orioles in 2012, the Rays in 2008, the Tigers in 2006 and 2009, the Royals in 2013, the Angels in 2014 and in 2004, the Mariners in 2014 and 2009, the Rangers in 2009, the Braves in 2009, the Pirates in 2013, the Brewers in 2011, the Reds in 2010, the Cubs in 2007, the Marlins in 2008, the Dodgers in 2006, the Diamondbacks in 2011, the Astros in 2008, the Rockies in 2009, the Padres in 2010, the Giants in 2014 and 2009.

 

And that is in the last 10 years or so.  And I can probably add Toronto & Cleveland to the list with less spectacular comebacks, but definite comeback.

 

The list includes pretty much every team other than the ones that had sustained success like the Yankees, Rangers and Cardinals, and the Twins.

 

No.  This is not how every team does it. 

 

Most teams and their fans care about winning.  The last thing that the people who are ru(i)nning the Twins need is more excuses and time to continue doing what they have been doing.

[Pius Jefferson]

I can't make myself feel excited if Ron Gardenhire with or without Rick Anderson is back managing next season.

[drjim]

Ryan led the Twins in how many World Series?  Agreed. He is doing now what he has done before when he destroyed the championship team that Macphail build, and engineered the team to be contracted. 

 

Look at what the Red Sox did in 2013, the Orioles in 2012, the Rays in 2008, the Tigers in 2006 and 2009, the Royals in 2013, the Angels in 2014 and in 2004, the Mariners in 2014 and 2009, the Rangers in 2009, the Braves in 2009, the Pirates in 2013, the Brewers in 2011, the Reds in 2010, the Cubs in 2007, the Marlins in 2008, the Dodgers in 2006, the Diamondbacks in 2011, the Astros in 2008, the Rockies in 2009, the Padres in 2010, the Giants in 2014 and 2009.

 

And that is in the last 10 years or so.  And I can probably add Toronto & Cleveland to the list with less spectacular comebacks, but definite comeback.

 

The list includes pretty much every team other than the ones that had sustained success like the Yankees, Rangers and Cardinals, and the Twins.

 

No.  This is not how every team does it. 

 

Most teams and their fans care about winning.  The last thing that the people who are ru(i)nning the Twins need is more excuses and time to continue doing what they have been doing.

 

Macphail destroyed his own championship team. The Twins were cooked by 1995 when MacPhail jumped ship during the strike. Why do you think he left?

[twinssouth]

Those are symptoms of the big problem...    I could say that some other symptoms are: Kubel, Willingham, Correia, Fuld, Morales, Pelfrey, Burton, Anderson, Vavra, Florimon, Gardenhire (add them on)

 

And I do not think that anyone could have expected Buxton to be ready (even if healthy) for the bigs this season.

Therein lies the problem. Ryan can't seem to construct a ml lineup with any sense of continuity. He seems to be too closely aligned with Gardy. This year is the best example yet of bringing in these washed up veterans it's like he's still working in the Metrodome. What in the world did he think he was going to accomplish with Kubel, Pelfrey, Barlett, Florimon. He never has impressed me on building a Championship team. Ryan can build a good Farm System but he's not A McPhail. McPhail put the pieces in places to win World Series Championships.

 

I feel the Twins need a new General Manager to take the team to the next level. Let that man pick the Manager and coaches.

[drjim]

Therein lies the problem. Ryan can't seem to construct a ml lineup with any sense of continuity. He seems to be too closely aligned with Gardy. This year is the best example yet of bringing in these washed up veterans it's like he's still working in the Metrodome. What in the world did he think he was going to accomplish with Kubel, Pelfrey, Barlett, Florimon. He never has impressed me on building a Championship team. Ryan can build a good Farm System but he's not A McPhail. McPhail put the pieces in places to win World Series Championships.

 

I feel the Twins need a new General Manager to take the team to the next level. Let that man pick the Manager and coaches.

 

The Twins are currently 6th in mlb in runs and 1st since mid July. He did something right building a lineup this year.

[DocBauer]

To completely contradict myself, color me both disappointed AND optimistic.

 

I felt this team overcame a lot the first half of the season to generally remain competitive, even when they had to piecemeal the OF and the INF at times with a dual rash if injuries. The team flirted with .500 at times despite lacking some obvious talent in certain areas, despite the mentioned rash of injuries, a hurt and in effective Nolasco, a mostly ineffective Mauer, and no RH veteran thumper in Willingham. I truly felt this team, with guys getting healthy, could contend for around a .500 finish. A little luck, a hot streak or two, a couple kids moving up to make contributions, like Vargas, they might have a small shot at 83-85 wins. When the All Star break came, it seemed like the team was gaining some momentum. Post break, it seemed like the wheels came off the wagon for a few weeks, for whatever reason, and any hope for .500 faded quickly away.

 

I'm optimistic due to Arcia, Santana, Dozier, Escobar, Plouffe, Vargas, Hughes, Gibson, a healthy Nolasco, the progress of May and Meyer and a few other youngsters coming on strong. This year has been a lot more fun to watch overall for two reasons; one being the affor mentioned players, two being a team that might have lost far more games than wanted, but wasn't blown out of games like the past few seasons. Last year, and the years before, I could tune to a game and find the Twins down 5 nil in the 3rd with no hope. Even with disappointing losses, and a run of poor performances by the bullpen earlier this month, the team was in those games with chances to win. There is such thing as they "eye test". And whether it be a player, a team, or a season, this team advances over the last three years with that eye test.

 

I'm also optimistic that despite the development, arrival, and impending arrival of even more talented youngsters, I believe the owner and FO are ready, willing and able to make some additional additions to next year's club. Exactly who to acquire, and for how much, remains something for us to watch, wait and see. But I believe moves will be made.

[Thrylos]

Macphail destroyed his own championship team. The Twins were cooked by 1995 when MacPhail jumped ship during the strike. Why do you think he left?

 

Macphail got a better job as a President/CEO for the Cubs in September of 1994, and I suspect that there were discussions about the Twins matching that, but did not happen. 

 

Macphail led the Twins to 2 World Championships.

 

'94 was a lost season because everyone knew that it was a strike year mid-season and there were no adjustments at the deadline.  Ryan did nothing. zip. zero. other than cutting payroll.   The 94 team was a .500 team with bad pitching.  Get a couple of decent free agents, replace Hrbek with someone else than 22 year old Stahoviak, bring back Shane Mack, get a DH bat to replace Winfield at DH and ...

 

Nope.  Ryan could not do that.

[Brandon]

When comparing this 90 loss team to last 90 loss team lets compare the appropriate stats.  we don't compare pitchers by wins and losses anymore.  Why are we comparing the teams record the same way as old school non-stat guys do?  In 2013 our run differential was -174.  This year before todays game we are at -68.  That's over a 100 run improvement which is huge.  And now we are acclimating our core for the future compared to using aging veterans to try to look like we have talent.  That is how we should compare this team to last years. 

 

I also want to mention time t takes to rebuild a franchise.  There are a few teams with vast wealth who have been able to retool on the fly like Boston and that has more to do with their trade with Los Angeles to clear contracts to give them flexibility.  But the Royals took 29 years to get to the playoffs.  (So I guess the trade was worth it for the Royals to go out and get Shields since it ended in a playoff appearance.).  Pirates took from 1992 to 2013.  We are going on year 5.  And I feel pretty confident things are bout to go our way. The Tigers are an aging team and the Indians do not have enough talent in their system.  The Royals are in the same boat as they loose Shields and are a bat short. (Though they do have pitching talent coming). The Yanks are about to embark on a 5 year rebuild too as they are saddled with big contracts for the next few years and without a lot of talent in their system. 

[gunnarthor]

Ryan led the Twins in how many World Series?  Agreed. He is doing now what he has done before when he destroyed the championship team that Macphail build, and engineered the team to be contracted. 

 

Look at what the Red Sox did in 2013, the Orioles in 2012, the Rays in 2008, the Tigers in 2006 and 2009, the Royals in 2013, the Angels in 2014 and in 2004, the Mariners in 2014 and 2009, the Rangers in 2009, the Braves in 2009, the Pirates in 2013, the Brewers in 2011, the Reds in 2010, the Cubs in 2007, the Marlins in 2008, the Dodgers in 2006, the Diamondbacks in 2011, the Astros in 2008, the Rockies in 2009, the Padres in 2010, the Giants in 2014 and 2009.

 

And that is in the last 10 years or so.  And I can probably add Toronto & Cleveland to the list with less spectacular comebacks, but definite comeback.

 

The list includes pretty much every team other than the ones that had sustained success like the Yankees, Rangers and Cardinals, and the Twins.

 

No.  This is not how every team does it. 

 

Most teams and their fans care about winning.  The last thing that the people who are ru(i)nning the Twins need is more excuses and time to continue doing what they have been doing.

Ryan engineered the team to be contracted?  He dismantled MacPhail's championship teams? Twins fans don't care about winning? Either you don't know what you're talking about or you are deliberately trying to provoke.  Most would call it pretty obvious trolling.

 

Let's see, what teams are we supposed to be looking at?  Baltimore in 2012 had their first winning season in 14 years.  Rays in 2008 had their first in 10 years (and after having six winning seasons, are going the other way again). Tigers in 2006 had their first winning season in 12 years and 2009 they had another winning season.  Royals in 2013 had first winning season in forever.  Mariners in 2014 had their first winning season since 2009 (which was a fluky season). Rangers in 2009 managed their first winning season since 04 (and second since 99). 

 

I suspect you are trying to argue that a losing team can have a winning season but to do so you pretty much have to ignore all relevant facts and merely say "well, see, Baltimore had a losing record and now they have a winning record so it must be that easy." 

[Pius Jefferson]

Macphail destroyed his own championship team. The Twins were cooked by 1995 when MacPhail jumped ship during the strike. Why do you think he left?

 

He left because Pohlad went into penny pincher mode and didn't care about fielding a competitive team.

[drjim]

He left because Pohlad went into penny pincher mode and didn't care about fielding a competitive team.

Certainly part of it. And makes it doubly hard in my mind to kill Terry Ryan for what followed the next half a decade. And to take it even further, to be that much more impressed that Ryan pulled them out of it with sustained success.

 

All adds to my general position to give Ryan a little more leeway.

[Thrylos]

Ryan engineered the team to be contracted?  He dismantled MacPhail's championship teams? Twins fans don't care about winning? Either you don't know what you're talking about or you are deliberately trying to provoke.  Most would call it pretty obvious trolling.

 

Nah. Those are facts.

 

Trolling is sugarcoating the last 4 seasons (like you have been doing). And dismissing factual arguments. 

 

 

Fact: 1991 was the last time the Twins won a world series

 

Fact: Terry Ryan's record as a general manager is worse that that of Andy MacPhail and Bill Smith

 

Fact: The Twins have lost 99, 96, 96 and 91 (pending) games the last 4 seasons

 

Please dispute those things or argue why a Twins fan should be happy about that.

 

Period.

 

Otherwise, you are trolling.

[goulik]

Fact- Bill Smith was held accountable for his 99 loss season and Terry Ryan was brought back to right the sinking ship

 

Fact- Andy Macphail has won 2 World Series and the same number as Ryan since 91

 

Fact- Our offense has scored more runs and our run differential is better than past four years

 

Fact- Our minors are stacked with prospects and many young players have already arrived. Many of those new arrivals and the vast majority in the minors were not in the system before Ryan's return

[USAFChief]

Everyone take a step back, please. There is no need for this thread to degenerate.