Carlton: What if we changed the rules?

[Brock Beauchamp]

http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/just-a-bit-outside/story/rules-changes-pitch-clocks-reliever-limits-dh-021015

 

This reinforces my belief that the pitch clock (or at least an internal umpire clock that spurs along the game) would make the biggest difference in the game.

 

Start with the obvious, time-saving stuff that impacts the strategy of the game the least, then work backward from there. There's no need to limit relievers or any of that stuff... Yet.

[Dman]

I think the pitch clock will work.  There will be some strategy changes that will take place because of it but I think it impacts the game far less than any of the other proposed changes.

[dxpavelka]

http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/just-a-bit-outside/story/rules-changes-pitch-clocks-reliever-limits-dh-021015

 

This reinforces my belief that the pitch clock (or at least an internal umpire clock that spurs along the game) would make the biggest difference in the game.

 

Start with the obvious, time-saving stuff that impacts the strategy of the game the least, then work backward from there. There's no need to limit relievers or any of that stuff... Yet.

If you want to limit something, limit the number and amount of times the batter can step out of the box.

[Brock Beauchamp]

If you want to limit something, limit the number and amount of times the batter can step out of the box.

Absolutely. Any pitch clock will have to come with an accompanying rule to get the batter back into the box in a timely fashion.

[jimmer]

My issue with all this is sometimes the batter is just trying to upset the pacing of the pitcher.  Get him out of his rhythm.  It's the strategy thing. I like that stuff. Pitchers like Buehrle would LOVE the pitch clock and forcing batters to stay in the box.

[James]

I think that having the pitch clock in AA and AAA for a few years is going to help a lot.  I would be willing to wait a little bit before implementing it in the MLB.  

 

The idea is that the guys in AA and AAA will get used to pitching at that pace, and eventually replace the guys in the MLB.  Hopefully, they won't slow down too much once they get there and we'll have a bunch of guys that are paced like Pavano and Buehrle.  

 

Purists don't have to worry about having a clock, and the fans will appreciate the game at a faster pace.  

[Brock Beauchamp]

My issue with all this is sometimes the batter is just trying to upset the pacing of the pitcher.  Get him out of his rhythm.  It's the strategy thing. I like that stuff. Pitchers like Buehrle would LOVE the pitch clock and forcing batters to stay in the box.

Baseball is a spectator sport. "Strategy" or not - and I'd argue whether this is a legitimate strategy at all - it's bad from a spectator perspective and therefore bad for the game itself.

 

People come to the game to watch guys throw pitches and guys swing bats, not for guys to stare each other down for what seems like an eternity.

[jimmer]

If I'm a batter and I know a pitcher likes to work real fast, I'm going to try and disrupt that.  Not sure how trying to get a pitcher out of his groove/comfort level wouldn't be strategic.  And while it may not appeal to people who need action all the time, for those who think of baseball as a sport that is also a thinking man's game, I enjoy it.  

 

I do understand that people enjoy the game in different ways though.

[Willihammer]

For starters, runs per game are well within the historical band of normal. Who decided we need more offense? Is that really what people want?

 

Re: game times, a shot clock seems awfully crude. If the goal is to reduce pitch times then isolate what's causing the delays, and address those directly to keep the collateral damage to a minimum.

 

Off the top of my head, these are possible contributors to increasing pitch times that have nothing to do with pitchers staring down batters or a hitter adjusting his gloves

 

* Pickoff throws

* Sign coding and re-coding, mound visits by catchers

* visits by pitching coaches

* Walk up music

* Umpires shuttling body armor

* Fresh balls that need to be re-rubbed

[nicksaviking]

For starters, runs per game are well within the historical band of normal. Who decided we need more offense? Is that really what people want?

 

Re: game times, a shot clock seems awfully crude. If the goal is to reduce pitch times then isolate what's causing the delays, and address those directly to keep the collateral damage to a minimum.

 

Off the top of my head, these are possible contributors to increasing pitch times that have nothing to do with pitchers staring down batters or a hitter adjusting his gloves

 

* Pickoff throws

* Sign coding and re-coding, mound visits by catchers

* visits by pitching coaches

* Walk up music

* Umpires shuttling body armor

* Fresh balls that need to be re-rubbed

*Playing on a nationally televised game and preening extra long with one foot in the batters box so the broadcasters will talk about you more

 

My addition

[jimmer]

Derek Jeter retiring may fix this problem altogether :-)

[Brock Beauchamp]

If I'm a batter and I know a pitcher likes to work real fast, I'm going to try and disrupt that.  Not sure how trying to get a pitcher out of his groove/comfort level wouldn't be strategic.  And while it may not appeal to people who need action all the time, for those who think of baseball as a sport that is also a thinking man's game, I enjoy it. 

I fully understand that baseball is a thinking man's game but I have a hard time believing that a professional pitcher can be thrown off his game in a meaningful fashion because a batter called time or stared at him intently.

 

Besides, stare-downs and time-outs aren't the problem. Batters adjusting their gloves and cup while the pitcher casually walks circles around the mound for 20 seconds between every pitch is the problem. That's not strategy, that's boring.

 

I stopped watching Pelfrey games not only because he's unwatchable as a pitcher - the Twins have thrown too many of those types out on the mound in recent years to avoid completely - but because he's absolutely agonizing to watch.

 

And, again, that's bad for the sport. If baseball has people like me drifting out of games because of the pace of play - I've been a diehard baseball fan for almost 30 years now - there's a serious problem with the game that needs to be addressed.

 

My personal solution is to tell the home plate ump to call a ball/strike after 12 seconds if a player is lolly-gagging, either batter or pitcher. That rule is on the books, MLB just needs to issue commands for the umpires to enforce it again. Just 10-15 years ago, MLB faced this problem and the umpires shored it up. Why'd they stop? Why'd MLB drop the ball, so to speak?

 

A dozen or so years ago, games dipped back under three hours on a regular basis (I remember a few two hour Buerhle games). It was great. Then everybody stopped caring about length of games again for some reason. We shouldn't even be having this discussion, IMO.

[TheLeviathan]

If a dude wants to step out in a 3-2 game with two guys on....fine. But that's not the problem, some guys do it between every damn pitch in any at bat no matter how meaningless. It's not so much strategy as the superstitious, trained routines these guys need to fix.

[Brock Beauchamp]

If a dude wants to step out in a 3-2 game with two guys on....fine. But that's not the problem, some guys do it between every damn pitch in any at bat no matter how meaningless. It's not so much strategy as the superstitious, trained routines these guys need to fix.

My favorite is the throw to first with Miguel Cabrera occupying the base.

 

Strategy.

[TheLeviathan]

My favorite is the throw to first with Miguel Cabrera occupying the base.

 

Strategy.

 

Don't forget Josh Willingham standing around with the bases empty waiting to get the "try and hit it" sign from his third base coach for 2-3 minutes.

[Linus]

I will favor / accept nearly any reasonable idea that will speed up the pace of play.  Several good ideas listed above but the most important thing to remember is this: as long as the strike zone is the size of a microwave oven, games will be slow as there is a built in incentive to work counts, get walks and drive pitch counts up.

 

Call strikes and let's swing the bats, boys.

[USAFChief]

I will favor / accept nearly any reasonable idea that will speed up the pace of play.  Several good ideas listed above but the most important thing to remember is this: as long as the strike zone is the size of a microwave oven, games will be slow as there is a built in incentive to work counts, get walks and drive pitch counts up.

 

Call strikes and let's swing the bats, boys.

There's an argument to be made the strike zone is bigger than it's ever been. At the least, K's are way up.

[Linus]

There's an argument to be made the strike zone is bigger than it's ever been. At the least, K's are way up.

Ks are way up because hitters don't care about striking out.  I also think strike outs are up because hitters have no problem taking until they have two strikes on them.  There is no way the strike zone is bigger than ever.

[jimmer]

Ks are way up because hitters don't care about striking out.  I also think strike outs are up because hitters have no problem taking until they have two strikes on them.  There is no way the strike zone is bigger than ever.

I don't know about bigger than ever, but it's certainly being called bigger than it has been for awhile.  And there are lots of articles and studies showing just that.  Easy to find, just need to google it.

[ashbury]

 to get the "try and hit it" sign

They should put that play on more often.  I kind of like it.  Catch the pitcher napping.

 

As for the topic, I do want to cut out the reciprocal problems of batters stepping out constantly, and pitchers standing there so long the batter eventually calls time.  But I also hate to think of some batter getting hurt by an inside pitch when he got something in his eye but couldn't step out to fix it and instead tried to tough it out.  I selectively recall Mauer stepping out and doing the winky-blinky thing a lot, for example, and I don't think he's a guy who just messes around on the job.

[Willihammer]

My personal solution is to tell the home plate ump to call a ball/strike after 12 seconds if a player is lolly-gagging, either batter or pitcher. That rule is on the books, MLB just needs to issue commands for the umpires to enforce it again. Just 10-15 years ago, MLB faced this problem and the umpires shored it up. Why'd they stop? Why'd MLB drop the ball, so to speak?

Really? They called balls and strikes after 12 seconds?

[jimmer]

Really? They called balls and strikes after 12 seconds?

RULE 8.04

 

 

'When the bases are unoccupied, the pitcher shall deliver the ball to the batter within 12 seconds after he receives the ball. Each time the pitcher delays the game by violating this rule, the umpire shall call “Ball.'

 

'The 12-second timing starts when the pitcher is in possession of the ball and the batter is in the box, alert to the pitcher. The timing stops when the pitcher releases the ball.

The intent of this rule is to avoid unnecessary delays. The umpire shall insist that the catcher return the ball promptly to the pitcher, and that the pitcher take his position on the rubber promptly. Obvious delay by the pitcher should instantly be penalized by the umpire.'

 

According to the article provided, it's been enforced rarely in the modern day.  Gives a couple examples. haven't seen an example when a batter was charged a strike.

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=23669

 

Might help if they enforced rule 6.02.

[Willihammer]

RULE 8.04

 

 

'When the bases are unoccupied, the pitcher shall deliver the ball to the batter within 12 seconds after he receives the ball. Each time the pitcher delays the game by violating this rule, the umpire shall call “Ball.'

 

'The 12-second timing starts when the pitcher is in possession of the ball and the batter is in the box, alert to the pitcher. The timing stops when the pitcher releases the ball.

The intent of this rule is to avoid unnecessary delays. The umpire shall insist that the catcher return the ball promptly to the pitcher, and that the pitcher take his position on the rubber promptly. Obvious delay by the pitcher should instantly be penalized by the umpire.'

 

According to the article provided, it's been enforced rarely in the modern day.  Gives a couple examples. haven't seen an example when a batter was charged a strike.

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=23669

 

Might help if they enforced rule 6.02.

I'm aware of the rule, I don't remember a time where it was widely enforced which is what Brock seems to be suggesting. In fact in the only two instances mentioned by the article, enforcement lead to delays because opposing managers thought they were being selectively targeted.

 

 

"That's the first time that's been called all year, and we're at the All-Star break," Wedge said. "That's ridiculous. [Carlos] Guillen was in and out of the box 10 times. If he's going to do that, every time he steps out, you should start over with the stopwatch."

...

“It wastes more time if you call it than if you don’t call it,” says Jim McKean, who worked as a major-league umpire from 1973–2001 and then served as an MLB umpire supervisor. “Because as soon as you call it you’ve got a full-scale argument.

 

The only way to enforce the rule without causing manager objection is to go full hog with a shot clock on everyone. So while the rule is on the books the reality is that it would change the way the game's  been played since... well when was the last era where the rule was widely enforced? Ever?

[jimmer]

I only remembered the one time, the Betancourt game. Like you, I never thought it was widely enforced.

[ScrapTheNickname]

http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/just-a-bit-outside/story/rules-changes-pitch-clocks-reliever-limits-dh-021015

 

This reinforces my belief that the pitch clock (or at least an internal umpire clock that spurs along the game) would make the biggest difference in the game.

 

Start with the obvious, time-saving stuff that impacts the strategy of the game the least, then work backward from there. There's no need to limit relievers or any of that stuff... Yet.

If the pitch clock is implemented, I hope, hope, hope that it isn't something the TV viewer sees on their screen! Could you imagine anything more maddening than watching that thing count down, and the inevitable anticlimax of the horn seldom, if ever, sounding? So if they keep it off the screen, I approve, I guess. Though I think limiting relief pitching is really where the time saving will come.

[ScrapTheNickname]

RULE 8.04

 

 

'When the bases are unoccupied, the pitcher shall deliver the ball to the batter within 12 seconds after he receives the ball. Each time the pitcher delays the game by violating this rule, the umpire shall call “Ball.'

 

'The 12-second timing starts when the pitcher is in possession of the ball and the batter is in the box, alert to the pitcher. The timing stops when the pitcher releases the ball.

The intent of this rule is to avoid unnecessary delays. The umpire shall insist that the catcher return the ball promptly to the pitcher, and that the pitcher take his position on the rubber promptly. Obvious delay by the pitcher should instantly be penalized by the umpire.'

 

According to the article provided, it's been enforced rarely in the modern day.  Gives a couple examples. haven't seen an example when a batter was charged a strike.

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=23669

 

Might help if they enforced rule 6.02.

I think when the batter steps out of the box, technically this resets the 12-second clock, and there is nothing illegal about stepping out of the box. Do I have that right?

[jimmer]

I think when the batter steps out of the box, technically this resets the 12-second clock, and there is nothing illegal about stepping out of the box. Do I have that right?

Read rule 6.02. Might answer that question. I'd copy and paste but it's blocked.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I think when the batter steps out of the box, technically this resets the 12-second clock, and there is nothing illegal about stepping out of the box. Do I have that right?

Once a batter steps into the box, he may not step out again without reason (for all intents and purposes, the batter shouldn't be allowed to step out 99% of the time). So, in essence, if the 12 second rule is enforced, all of this goes away. The batter has to be in the box when the pitch is delivered and the pitcher has to deliver the pitch within 12 seconds of receiving the ball.

[Willihammer]

The batter can step out if

 

(i) The batter swings at a pitch;

(ii) The batter is forced out of the batter's box by a pitch;

(iii) A member of either team requests and is granted Time;

(iv) A defensive player attempts a play on a runner at any base;

(v) The batter feints a bunt;

(vi) A wild pitch or passed ball occurs;

(vii) The pitcher leaves the dirt area of the pitching mound after receiving the ball; or

(viii) The catcher leaves the catcher's box to give defensive signals.

[Willihammer]

By the way, how often do pitchers actually violate rule 8.04? How much time is spent in violation of the rule every game? Has anyone come up with those numbers?