Royals 4, Twins 2: Bailey Ober's Brilliant Start Wasted by Bullpen Blow-Up

Is it just me or has Duran picked up a Thielbar-esque quirk in his delivery more and more lately?  He doesn't raise the ball above his glove like Thielbar (and the purposeful meatball throwers at the Home Run Derby), but he's pulling the ball further out of his glove earlier than he used to.  He seems to have lost his control as well.

Whew...what a night! My scrolling finger is hot from all of the vituperation in evidence after this latest fiasco of a loss. And, yes, I'd have left Ober in to start the 8th and lifted him after a first walk or hit in that frame. He was magnificent tonight; on the road and against a solid team.

I fall into a kind of diffident middle ground regarding the Twins' skipper. It's hard to argue with success, and clearly he's had some. And I also have to admit that he is better than most of the Twins' managers I have critiqued over the years: and that goes back to the days of Cookie Lavagetto and his .414 winning percentage. Having said that, I am also aware that he tends to infuriate me at times more than most any other in that long line of managers. It's akin to that line from The Who, "and he and Tommy were worlds apart,"  or the way that the high school "math guys" or the distance runners on the tra,ck team (especially the 10 K specialists) seemed to be living in different, far more rigid and statistical, universe than me.

I'll end with a needed, in my humble opinion, olive branch offering to the group. Despite the frustration of the last couple of weeks, (if the Twins lose tomorrow they will have lost 14 for the last 20-yes?) I feel it's important to remember that the folks who post the comments that drive you to distraction are in fact your brothers and sisters; members of a scarred yet still hopeful fraternity. I urge one and all to disagree without disrespect, and also to realize that we share a deep bond as we navigate both the sunlight and the shadows of this annual journey from spring to fall, and most often from hope to despair.

Win Twins! 

I think Rocco is both overrated in some circles and underrated in others, meaning he probably averages out to an average manager overall.... But in game personnel moves (specifically overmanaging) is undoubtedly where he is weakest. You only have two reliable starters left in your rotation and a bullpen that has been shaky, when one of those starters is dominating with a manageable pitch count you don't take him out. Anything other than that is overthinking the situation. I think Rocco is overall decent, but this was a really frustrating and avoidable loss that I would pin mostly on him and his managerial decisions.

5 hours ago, thelanges5 said:

Twins running on fumes and doing their best White Sox impression the past couple weeks. We’ll likely make the playoffs but it is hard to get too excited about it. Not a fun team to watch/follow right now. 

I would put their play-off odds at no better than 50/50. Only one of Seattle/Boston/Detroit has to get hot. The Twins won't win more than 85 games. 

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He continued to make contact in each at-bat and showed promise for being a solid big-league hitter

Good to hear, thank you, Sherry . 

Yes, Baldelli's management style is baffling. Last night was a good example of following the spreadsheet and not your heart. Not sticking with Ober, not following with Jax.

Baldelli has the potential to become a pretty good manager. If he was brought in as a bench coach under Molitor, they could potentially learn from each other. But this FO wants basically a "yes man" who follows the spreadsheets.

This kind of game takes out the little wind left in the sails. That plus other things cast this team adrift, endangered to have KC pass them for good & have either DET, BOS & even SEA to catch them, much less thinking about winning the division & having a successful postseason.

It all started this offseason with a great core but by messing with the chemistry, not trading for our real needs & doing fluff that did nothing to improve the team. that extended into the deadline. That sends the wrong message to the players.

8 hours ago, thelanges5 said:

Did Rocco make a poor decision? Probably but if we cannot score more than two runs or count on Jax and Duran to hold a two run lead then we are screwed anyways.

Yes, poor Rocco decisions aside, we need to put more runs across the plate to win these games. 

9 hours ago, cheeseheadgophfan said:

Not even talking about Duran vs. Jax in the 8th, can anyone please defend pulling Ober after 7??

1.  Pitch count?  84 pitches (he's thrown over 100 in starts before)

2.  Struggling?  Set down 15 in a row.

3.  Didn't want him to face the top of the order again?  I believe KC had 6-7-8 or 7-8-9 coming up....

4.  Hard contact?  One hit.  Literally ZERO hard contact.

5.  Rested bullpen?  Nope.  Tired bullpen.  Could've really used a day off.

Am I missing a reason???  Anyone?

You are absolutely correct. The headline to the story should not blame the relief pitcher. The manager (whose name I cannot say or I get scolded by the word police) is completely to blame for this loss. There isn't one top of the line pitcher in MLB who would want to play for the Mgr (whose name I cannot say) of this squad. 

In 1984 the Twins choked a big lead (Viola and Gaetti) while contending and never regained their mojo until 1987. This is the game people will point to should they fail to make the playoffs. 

6 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

I didn't like the decision when they showed him in the dugout clearly telling Ober he was done, but let's not act like he pulled Ober for Richards or Okert. Rocco did what many have been calling for and showed a sense of urgency. He went to his 2 shutdown arms in a close game. Isn't the decision I'd have made, but Duran and Jax should be able to slam the door there. 

I didn't like the decision because Ober was cruising and was giving the pen a rest. Not having to use both Duran and Jax tonight would've been huge as they're going to likely keep playing close games since they can't score and being able to save at least one of them from throwing would be huge. If either throws Sunday he's out Monday since he'll have thrown 3 times in 4 days. Letting Ober go another saves you from that situation.

When they showed Rocco telling Ober I assumed it was Jax coming in. Bringing in Duran for the 8th is the decision I really can't see a defense for. Those 2 are supposed to be match-up proof guys. Duran is much better in save situations so I don't get why you'd use him in the 8th if you're planning on using both guys. If you don't trust Duran to face the top of that order the pen is in even worse shape than we thought. I am one who believes you don't need to always have a set 9th inning guy, but Duran's numbers are pretty clear that's when he's his best. Why mess with that? Jax is actually proof that some guys can be used in any inning and perform, so why not use him in the 8th and leave Duran in his 9th inning spot? 

This team's apparent approach of using "big picture," general trends to make decisions instead of using the data of their actual players is so frustrating. Maybe I'm wrong about that being their approach, but there are a lot of decisions they make that certainly make it look like that's their approach. The Duran decision tonight can be tossed in with their platooning for sure in the evidence for "we believe in 'baseball' trends not individual's trends."

Rocco might have Jax in Fantasy and needed a save.  Just saying...

I thought there was hope for Rocco when lately he has let Wallner, Julien, and Larnach hit against LHP. But no, he has to do something to pull defeat from the jaws of victory. His late inning management is terrible, I don’t care what the stats say. 
If the heavens somehow aligned and miracles (it would take multiple miracles) happened to get the Twins into game 7 of the WS, there is no way a complete 10-inning game 7 happens. Think about the decision Tom Kelly made there and that is the difference between a great manager and Baldelli. 
 

Not surprised at all that Rocco took out Ober.  Should he have?  Of course not.  It was another in a growing list of questionable, stupid baseball decision.  He continually proves he has very little baseball sense.  

Kris Atteberry is getting so awful to listen to.  Thank goodness Perkins was there to bail out his idiotic comments.  Again, trying to blame game on umpiring and injuries.  Yes we have injuries and yes Rocco made a poor decision and taking out Ober.  Yes fielding didn't help in the 8th inning.  But also you count on Duran and Jax.  They both blew it!!  Rocco blew it!!  Again!! This team is a sinking ship with a manager with no clue.

A deflating gutless defeat  , the manager needs to find ways to win with the players he has , he is stubborn as a mule and won'tor can't improvise  ...

HE has all the answers on his spread sheets but continues to fail the test ...

9 hours ago, cmoss84 said:

Most closers do poorly when put in non save situations. Preparation is far different as closer, and should not be messed with.

What's different? Do closers do backflips before entering the game but 8th inning pitchers do cartwheels?

This is one of those areas where mental toughness actually does matter. If you can prepare for the inning when 9 is on the scoreboard but not when 8 is on the scoreboard and you lose all confidence and determination, then you aren't a mentally tough pitcher. Same goes for pitchers who can pitch when that number is an 8 but not when it is a 9.

Rocco was too clever by half last night. He wouldn't be getting roasted here if Duran had fallen apart in the 9th instead of the 8th. We won't know but it's entirely possible that the Royals were ready for Duran and would have blown him up in the 9th if Ober or Jax pitches a scoreless 8th inning.

5 hours ago, mikelink45 said:

This was the perfect set up for a complete game for Ober.  He has to be frustrated.  At 83 pitches he still had enough to keep rolling

They may have been able to get the 8th inning out of Ober but he wasn't going to pitch the 9th with >95 pitches on the night.