Rays 2, Twins 1: Lineup Mediocrity "Springs" Eternal

One more question - why don't we IL Kepler and call up an OF?

50 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

The one flip side that is never discussed is that you get the guy on the mound, who is often in a good rhythm, out of the game. Potentially, this is an advantage today …….. and seeing the other guy may keep him from being available tomorrow. Not perfect argument but part of the thinking in a 162 game season. 

It's a sensible point. I won't really argue it because it is sensible. I make 162 game reasoning in my points when I complain about young left handed hitters atrophying against left handed pitching because they will be needed over the long haul. I make 162 game considerations when I complain about the short sider on the roster being needed over the long haul. You are right Cleavinger has now pitched two days in a row is most likely not available for todays game.   

To support what you are saying... I've often wondered why Rocco will at times (actually a lot of the time... if not most of the time) stack his left handers at the top of the starting lineup. For example... Larnach in the two hole, Wallner at the 4 spot and Kepler at the 5 spot.

Instead of spaced out with Larnach hitting 2, Wallner 5 and Kepler 8. If you space them out, you make it harder for them to place a lefty on the mound knowing that they must face 3 batters minimum and two right handers are going to follow.

When Rocco stacks them up. He is just asking for a left hander to enter the game when Larnach rolls around and if the manager does it early in the game. Margot and Farmer will have to face the nasty right handed closer in the ninth when the clock is about to hit zero. Ninth inning is back against the wall... 5th, 6th or 7th inning there is still opportunity to score runs.

I've thought about why he does that and there are only two things that make sense to me. Although, I don't agree with either possible explanation.  

1. Those are the best hitters so up in the order they go. I think your best hitters should go at the top of the order because they will hit more often... but that advantage is negated if it means they are not available in the ninth because they were pinch hit for.  

2. He is trying to draw a left hander into the game because he thinks the possible left hander isn't as good as the right handed arsenal or he's trying to burn up a left hander early in the series.     

Trying to get the other manager to utilize or burn certain pitchers should be a consideration and I'm hopeful that it's on our managers mind.

However, I'm not sure that reason #2 is the reason because I've seen the Twins get painted into a late inning corner on the last day of a series when the next team they play will get the benefit of burning a bullpen arm.   

In the context of last nights game. Uceta has been great so far in this 34.1 innings. 46 K's with a 0.67 WHIP. Cleaving hasn't been as good but he has still been pretty good. I'm not sure the gain is significant in this context. The Rays also have Lovelady who throws from the left side who Cash can put in the game early today and drive Larnach, Wallner and Julien from the lineup. Leaving once again Farmer and Martin or even Helmen to face Uceta or Manuel Rodriquez in the ninth.  

Just to show that I'm not just one sided and willing to look at both sides. Let's say that Rocco saves his bullets for the ninth... like I think he should have... or should do. Let's say he stays with Martin and Helman and lets them bat in the 7th. Leaving him with 3 lefties available to pinch hit in the ninth against Uceta. For example let's say that 7th and 8th play out exactly like they did last night with Martin and Helman remaining in the game.  

The Twins would have entered the top of the 9th down 1 run with Santana, Farmer, Lee, Castro, Martin, Helmen.  

Santana would not be pinch hit for is my guess and Julien would pinch hit for Farmer just like what transpired last night. Wallner or Larnach could have hit for Lee with Castro moving to SS if necessary in the 10th... But at that point... there is no reason that Cash couldn't immediately counter with Cleavinger as soon as Wallner or Larnach was announced and we now have the dreaded lefty on lefty matchup. 

I get it... I see both sides. You make a sensible point. 

My solution is to not starve your young left handed hitters during the course of the season because there will come a time when you will need them to face left handed pitching and the timing for this may be extremely inconvenient... such as... the September stretch run... or worse yet... the actual playoffs. 

Larnach at best can become Joc Pederson in the future, Wallner at best can become Joc Pederson in the future. Kirilloff at best can become Joc Pederson in the future. Julien at best can become Joc Pederson in the future. Emmanuel Rodriquez at best can become Joc Pederson in the future, Walter Jenkins at best can become Joc Pederson. This is your development plan for a team that... Let's be honest can't afford to bring in big name free agents... therefore development is absolute key to future success. Turning the key to future success into finding the right low priced Margot every single year. 

Because Joc Pederson requires Grichuk or Margot to take a roster spot. Margot taking a spot is a spot not available to ERod or Jenkins or even Kiersay until injury opens the door but if the injury is to Margot... they will call up Helman instead because Joc Pederson requires Margot or Helman who faces more right handers than left handers because 75% of the pitching is Right handed and injuries are going to happen. 

Meanwhile the Orioles roster 7 left handed hitters on their current roster. Yankees 7, Cleveland 7, Detroit 7, Red Sox 6. Jays 6, D-Backs 6, Phillies 6,  Cards 6 and Nats 6. 10 of 30 teams are stuffed with lefty hitters. Those 10 teams are 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 10 and 12, 16, 20, 20 and 23 in runs scored this year. 

There is a lot to consider but this extreme reaction to the left handed hitter facing a left handed batter did result in Vazquez pinch hitting with the game on the line. OK... it happened... tomorrow's a new day and I get it. The platoon split is real... but one last thing that I can't get out of mind. If we are so careful to avoid left  handed hitters facing left handed pitchers... Why isn't the reverse true. We have a 28 man roster that has ONE... left handed pitcher in Thielbar.

Hitters... Nope can't do it. Pitchers... Yep can do it. 

Anyway... I'm not arguing your point... It's solid. I agree that 162 game considerations need to be part of what a manager does. 

24 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

It's a sensible point. I won't really argue it because it is sensible. I make 162 game reasoning in my points when I complain about young left handed hitters atrophying against left handed pitching because they will be needed over the long haul. I make 162 game considerations when I complain about the short sider on the roster being needed over the long haul. You are right Cleavinger has now pitched two days in a row is most likely not available for todays game.   

To support what you are saying... I've often wondered why Rocco will at times (actually a lot of the time... if not most of the time) stack his left handers at the top of the starting lineup. For example... Larnach in the two hole, Wallner at the 4 spot and Kepler at the 5 spot.

Instead of spaced out with Larnach hitting 2, Wallner 5 and Kepler 8. If you space them out, you make it harder for them to place a lefty on the mound knowing that they must face 3 batters minimum and two right handers are going to follow.

When Rocco stacks them up. He is just asking for a left hander to enter the game when Larnach rolls around and if the manager does it early in the game. Margot and Farmer will have to face the nasty right handed closer in the ninth when the clock is about to hit zero. Ninth inning is back against the wall... 5th, 6th or 7th inning there is still opportunity to score runs.

I've thought about why he does that and there are only two things that make sense to me. Although, I don't agree with either possible explanation.  

1. Those are the best hitters so up in the order they go. I think your best hitters should go at the top of the order because they will hit more often... but that advantage is negated if it means they are not available in the ninth because they were pinch hit for.  

2. He is trying to draw a left hander into the game because he thinks the possible left hander isn't as good as the right handed arsenal or he's trying to burn up a left hander early in the series.     

Trying to get the other manager to utilize or burn certain pitchers should be a consideration and I'm hopeful that it's on our managers mind.

However, I'm not sure that reason #2 is the reason because I've seen the Twins get painted into a late inning corner on the last day of a series when the next team they play will get the benefit of burning a bullpen arm.   

In the context of last nights game. Uceta has been great so far in this 34.1 innings. 46 K's with a 0.67 WHIP. Cleaving hasn't been as good but he has still been pretty good. I'm not sure the gain is significant in this context. The Rays also have Lovelady who throws from the left side who Cash can put in the game early today and drive Larnach, Wallner and Julien from the lineup. Leaving once again Farmer and Martin or even Helmen to face Uceta or Manuel Rodriquez in the ninth.  

Just to show that I'm not just one sided and willing to look at both sides. Let's say that Rocco saves his bullets for the ninth... like I think he should have... or should do. Let's say he stays with Martin and Helman and lets them bat in the 7th. Leaving him with 3 lefties available to pinch hit in the ninth against Uceta. For example let's say that 7th and 8th play out exactly like they did last night with Martin and Helman remaining in the game.  

The Twins would have entered the top of the 9th down 1 run with Santana, Farmer, Lee, Castro, Martin, Helmen.  

Santana would not be pinch hit for is my guess and Julien would pinch hit for Farmer just like what transpired last night. Wallner or Larnach could have hit for Lee with Castro moving to SS if necessary in the 10th... But at that point... there is no reason that Cash couldn't immediately counter with Cleavinger as soon as Wallner or Larnach was announced and we now have the dreaded lefty on lefty matchup. 

I get it... I see both sides. You make a sensible point. 

My solution is to not starve your young left handed hitters during the course of the season because there will come a time when you will need them to face left handed pitching and the timing for this may be extremely inconvenient... such as... the September stretch run... or worse yet... the actual playoffs. 

Larnach at best can become Joc Pederson in the future, Wallner at best can become Joc Pederson in the future. Kirilloff at best can become Joc Pederson in the future. Julien at best can become Joc Pederson in the future. Emmanuel Rodriquez at best can become Joc Pederson in the future, Walter Jenkins at best can become Joc Pederson. This is your development plan for a team that... Let's be honest can't afford to bring in big name free agents... therefore development is absolute key to future success. Turning the key to future success into finding the right low priced Margot every single year. 

Because Joc Pederson requires Grichuk or Margot to take a roster spot. Margot taking a spot is a spot not available to ERod or Jenkins or even Kiersay until injury opens the door but if the injury is to Margot... they will call up Helman instead because Joc Pederson requires Margot or Helman who faces more right handers than left handers because 75% of the pitching is Right handed and injuries are going to happen. 

Meanwhile the Orioles roster 7 left handed hitters on their current roster. Yankees 7, Cleveland 7, Detroit 7, Red Sox 6. Jays 6, D-Backs 6, Phillies 6,  Cards 6 and Nats 6. 10 of 30 teams are stuffed with lefty hitters. Those 10 teams are 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 10 and 12, 16, 20, 20 and 23 in runs scored this year. 

There is a lot to consider but this extreme reaction to the left handed hitter facing a left handed batter did result in Vazquez pinch hitting with the game on the line. OK... it happened... tomorrow's a new day and I get it. The platoon split is real... but one last thing that I can't get out of mind. If we are so careful to avoid left  handed hitters facing left handed pitchers... Why isn't the reverse true. We have a 28 man roster that has ONE... left handed pitcher in Thielbar.

Hitters... Nope can't do it. Pitchers... Yep can do it. 

Anyway... I'm not arguing your point... It's solid. I agree that 162 game considerations need to be part of what a manager does. 

Margot keeps getting the call to pinch hit against lefties. yet he is 0-28 as a pinch hitter, and some 130 or so games is significant. When does that override the "odds" and become the "odds", and you just keep the left handed batter in the game to get an AB and let him get an opportunity improve his line? I don't think any of the batters Margot pinch hits for is 0-28 against the same sided pitchers. 

13 hours ago, Aerodeliria said:

It looked like a circus in the outfield...that was a very ugly way to lose...

Twins going all Twins 

Almost 

21 minutes ago, h2oface said:

Margot keeps getting the call to pinch hit against lefties. yet he is 0-28 as a pinch hitter, and some 130 or so games is significant. When does that override the "odds" and become the "odds", and you just keep the left handed batter in the game to get an AB and let him get an opportunity improve his line? I don't think any of the batters Margot pinch hits for is 0-28 against the same sided pitchers. 

By the time Margot returns we may be eliminated.

1 hour ago, h2oface said:

Margot keeps getting the call to pinch hit against lefties. yet he is 0-28 as a pinch hitter, and some 130 or so games is significant. When does that override the "odds" and become the "odds", and you just keep the left handed batter in the game to get an AB and let him get an opportunity improve his line? I don't think any of the batters Margot pinch hits for is 0-28 against the same sided pitchers. 

My Guess and a guess only is that the Twins are playing the long game. Over the long run... Margot will get some pinch hits and turn that 0-14 into a 5 for 20. Just making up numbers out of my goofy head for example purposes.  

September and 0-28 is a problem. Are they still waiting for a 5 for 6 stretch at the plate to finish out September?  

I was done waiting in August but I have my own thoughts that don't match up with theirs. 

55 minutes ago, LambchoP said:

Utility guys are way over valued by Rocco. Sure the flexibility is nice, but really you don't need more than one guy. You end up with two or three guys who can play anywhere sure, but they end up without a true position and end up not playing any of them well. I think you're better off just getting outfielders who play the OF well and infielders who play the IF well. Martin and Margot are horrible in the OF. Julien is bad in the infield. We definitely need to shore up our poor defense if we don't want to be embarrassed in the playoffs. The stolen bases are a problem too. Whenever there are runners on the corners it's like we just concede the first runner stealing second without even a throw, just because there's a runner on third. Pretty sad... Bottom line we need Buxton and Correa back as there not only our best bats when they're playing well, but they're our best defensive players as well at premium positions. Too bad they all never play together ..

In my opinion... it can't be done. 

Depth is necessary because of injuries. 

In order to have decent depth not just names to fill out a roster that you hope you don't have to play.... you must have flexibility because you have 3 extra players for 8 positions not counting the catcher position. 

Talented players are not going to sit waiting for injury to play. Talented players shouldn't have to sit for prolonged periods of time because they are talented.

Rostering Non-Talented to fill out a roster so the same 9 play every day results in needing those non-talented players to play because of injuries. 

 Flexibility is a necessary product produced by actual depth.  

Actual depth is a necessary product of injuries and unexpected poor performance.  

1 hour ago, Major League Ready said:

It's quite possible that Larnach and Wallner would eventually become adequate hitters against LHP.  However, at the present, Larch has a career wRC+ of 57 vs LHP and Wallner is at 43.  How would they be better right now?

By playing.. 

1 hour ago, LambchoP said:

Utility guys are way over valued by Rocco. Sure the flexibility is nice, but really you don't need more than one guy. You end up with two or three guys who can play anywhere sure, but they end up without a true position and end up not playing any of them well. I think you're better off just getting outfielders who play the OF well and infielders who play the IF well. Martin and Margot are horrible in the OF. Julien is bad in the infield. We definitely need to shore up our poor defense if we don't want to be embarrassed in the playoffs. The stolen bases are a problem too. Whenever there are runners on the corners it's like we just concede the first runner stealing second without even a throw, just because there's a runner on third. Pretty sad... Bottom line we need Buxton and Correa back as there not only our best bats when they're playing well, but they're our best defensive players as well at premium positions. Too bad they all never play together ..

The front office supplies the players, so it's likely they over value utility players. 

There have been no less than three games lost in the last two weeks directly because of terrible defensive play in the outfield. While Byron takes his sweet old time coming back from what I can only assume is the worst hip injury since my grandma fell down the stairs some years ago. I know we aren’t allowed to question injuries but dude come on. Dude hasn’t played for almost 4 weeks at this point and his absence is killing us. He was “close” to coming back two weeks ago. Someone isn’t being honest with us.

Just now, Vanimal46 said:

They did give them chances all throughout the minors and both have shown to be bad at hitting lefties. Most LH hitters do. A fun fact: Kyle Farmer has a higher career OPS against lefties than Morneau and Thome  

They don’t have to give them opportunities at the MLB level. Aaron Gleeman wrote an article detailing why “give them a chance” doesn’t work. 

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5277693/2024/03/06/twins-platoon-left-handed-hitters/

Career shmactere. Farmer is done as a player. Can't hit or field 

Just now, Aggies7 said:

There have been no less than three games lost in the last two weeks directly because of terrible defensive play. While Byron takes his sweet old time coming back from what I can only assume is the worst hip injury since my grandma fell down the stairs some years ago. I know we aren’t allowed to question injuries but dude come on. Dude hasn’t played for almost 4 weeks at this point and his absence is killing us. He was “close” two weeks ago.

Seriously? This idea that medicine is easy and that guys are soft is ridiculous 

2 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Seriously? This idea that medicine is easy and that guys are soft is ridiculous 

The idea that the twins bring guys back as cautiously as possible is absolutely not ridiculous.

And it was said at least a couple weeks ago that he was close to returning to action. Fact not opinion.