Matt Capps, Bill Smith and the trade that ruined Twins baseball

[Kwak]

If the Twins are holding fast at an $80m payroll indefinitely, explain the Matt Garza offer.

 

Sure--once somebody accepts an offer, they can withdraw an offer to someone else.

[Thrylos]

How can any MLB team reduce their payroll by $12MM and expect to compete? This kind of non-spending by ownership puts the burden squarely on ownership, not management. What other MLB team is conducting itself in like manner? Please advise.

 

Depends on how the $12M is being spent... In 2013 the Twins paid:

 

$15 Million to Morneau

$5.5 Million to Blackburn

$3.75 Million to Carroll

$3.5 Million to Doumit

$.65 Million to Butera

 

That's about $29 Million. Not spent that well/effectively.

[oldguy10]

Well then let's speculate that ownership would rather pocket the differential between revenue and payroll than spend it on ballplayers. How else can one label it?

[notoriousgod71]

This. Everybody gets a little blame for this mess. Ryan for not continuing to build a better than average MiLB system through the mid 2000s, Smith for trading away the assets Ryan did draft or acquire (Bartlett, Garza, Ramos).

 

How different is 2011-2013 if those three players are on the roster? Smith inherited a bad situation and proceeded to light the damned building on fire instead of improving the situation.

 

Honestly our team would still have been miserable if we had Garza, Bartlett, and Ramos those seasons. Bartlett was terrible his last season and out of baseball last year. Ramos would have been a back up catcher and Garza is not nearly enough to make up for the ineptness of 4/5 of the roster. I'd say we maybe get up to 74 wins once. The thing that kills us is that we didn't have Garza and Bartlett when we (and they) were actually good.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Sure--once somebody accepts an offer, they can withdraw an offer to someone else.

 

Except that all evidence suggests they were in on Garza until he signed with the Brewers, or at least until January.

[Kwak]

Except that all evidence suggests they were in on Garza until he signed with the Brewers, or at least until January.

 

What evidence? The Twins said they made an offer to Garza. Few if any details--and nothing about the back-and-forth discussions, like what Garza requested--dates weren't given. My point--said they were "comfortable with $80-85MM" last year maybe they would be comfortable with more this year. But the coincidence of nearly identical payroll from year to year is illuminating especially in light of the previous statement.

[bird]

Well then let's speculate that ownership would rather pocket the differential between revenue and payroll than spend it on ballplayers. How else can one label it?

 

Easy as pie, oldguy. I speculate that Jim Pohlad told us he's in favor of spending more to improve the team. I'm speculating that, just like he said he did, he's encouraged his front office to spend money if that's what it takes. And I'm speculating that Ryan has cautioned him to remain patient, that he'll spend Jimmy's money when he has the right opportunities and not before, and to just simmer down a bit and let things play out. I mean, how else can one label it?

[bird]

Exactly what does the timing of the Garza offer prove to you?

[Brock Beauchamp]

What evidence? The Twins said they made an offer to Garza. Few if any details--and nothing about the back-and-forth discussions, like what Garza requested--dates weren't given. My point--said they were "comfortable with $80-85MM" last year maybe they would be comfortable with more this year. But the coincidence of nearly identical payroll from year to year is illuminating especially in light of the previous statement.

 

Two different articles quoting inside Twins sources, one mentioning the period around TwinsFest, another saying the Twins were in on Garza until the day he signed with the Brewers.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Exactly what does the timing of the Garza offer prove to you?

 

That the Twins are willing to spend more money if the right player is available, which renders the $80m payroll ceiling a figment of fans' imaginations.

[Major League Ready]

That the Twins are willing to spend more money if the right player is available, which renders the $80m payroll ceiling a figment of fans' imaginations.

 

I expect the average fan to fall back on the extremely parochial view that the problem is FA spending. I am rather surprised that a crowd as baseball savvy as this group continues to focus on FA spending, especially given we are in a rebuilding phase. IF, they spent another $40M on FA, and IF they produced as expected (as we hope) the result would be approximately an incremental 6 wins. We still would not break 500.

 

Did the Cardinals do it through FA? How about the A’s or the Rays? How about any team not in the top 5 in revenue.

 

The Twins has 66 wins last year. So, they need to pick up 27-30 wins to contend. Even if you could go get whomever you like, the cost via free agency would be in the neighborhood of an additional $200M. The argument for is not about building a winner. It is about the gratification of having a given player or player(s) on the team. If you want to build a winner, that requires building, not buying, especially when other team s can outspend you two-fold. I am far more concerned about the development of our prospects than what FA they sign this year.

[oldguy10]

And how is the development of the Twins prospects going anyway? Quite well if one looks at the big picture and is patient. I would think by 2016 at the latest the team should be a contender if all goes well but I also think some key free agents must be sprinkled in with the youngsters for total success. So we'll see how that plays both with the owners and management.

[Guest]

Bad trades? What about Tom Brunansky for Tommy Herr? For the current regime, it wasn't technically a trade, but everyone would probably like to go back in time and retract David Ortiz in exchange for spending reduction.

[bird]

I expect the average fan to fall back on the extremely parochial view that the problem is FA spending. I am rather surprised that a crowd as baseball savvy as this group continues to focus on FA spending, especially given we are in a rebuilding phase. IF, they spent another $40M on FA, and IF they produced as expected (as we hope) the result would be approximately an incremental 6 wins. We still would not break 500.

 

Did the Cardinals do it through FA? How about the A’s or the Rays? How about any team not in the top 5 in revenue.

 

The Twins has 66 wins last year. So, they need to pick up 27-30 wins to contend. Even if you could go get whomever you like, the cost via free agency would be in the neighborhood of an additional $200M. The argument for is not about building a winner. It is about the gratification of having a given player or player(s) on the team. If you want to build a winner, that requires building, not buying, especially when other team s can outspend you two-fold. I am far more concerned about the development of our prospects than what FA they sign this year.

 

I would speculate that this is pretty much the conversation Terry Ryan had with Jim Pohlad awhile back.

[Guest USAFChief]

I would speculate that this is pretty much the conversation Terry Ryan had with Jim Pohlad awhile back.

If so, then I would speculate Jim Pohlad is asking Terry Ryan why he signed those FA pitchers, if not to make the 2014 team better.

[johnnydakota]

To go even more off-topic, will there be game threads for the Spring Training games?

 

Does somebody have the schedule for televised "away" games? I looked at the calendar on twinsbaseball.com but it looks like they only note the coverage on home games. I remember somebody posting somewhere about some televised away games.

 

Thanks for any info!

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[johnnydakota]

How can any MLB team reduce their payroll by $12MM and expect to compete? This kind of non-spending by ownership puts the burden squarely on ownership, not management. What other MLB team is conducting itself in like manner? Please advise.

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[howieramone1406390264]

If so, then I would speculate Jim Pohlad is asking Terry Ryan why he signed those FA pitchers, if not to make the 2014 team better.

 

It definitely made the team better. The move was made to bring the worst starting staff in baseball toward respectability. What's underestimated is, it allows us to bring two of our most highly rated starting pitching prospects to Target Field when our favorite team feels they are ready, and not rushing them out of desperation. Further, although additional moves may be necessary, we have bridged the gap until our own numerous starting pitching prospects are ready in 2016 and/or 2017. All this was accomplished without taking on an albatross contract or touching our farm system.

[JB_Iowa]

Apperently all home games will be televised, not sure if that is only on MLBtv or if it will be avalible in the cities on cable or not

 

Thanks. Saturday's game is on FSN.

 

I'll have to go visit each opponent's page to see about the possibility of seeing away games.

 

And this is an official shout out to RB for at least a few game threads!!!!!!

[johnnydakota]

Thanks. Saturday's game is on FSN.

 

I'll have to go visit each opponent's page to see about the possibility of seeing away games.

 

And this is an official shout out to RB for at least a few game threads!!!!!!

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[Kwak]

It definitely made the team better. The move was made to bring the worst starting staff in baseball toward respectability. What's underestimated is, it allows us to bring our two most highly rated starting pitching prospects to Target Field when our favorite team feels they are ready, and not rushing them out of desperation. Further, although additional moves may be necessary, we have bridged the gap until our own numerous starting pitching prospects are ready in 2016 and/or 2017. All this was accomplished without taking on an albatross contract or touching our farm system.

 

Of course it was to improve the team's record. But nobody would have been "rushed", there were "plenty of arms" in 2013 and the "open mike" continues with the acquisition of even more "arms" this off-season--and I don't mean Nolasco or Hughes. The rotation would have included most of the Red Wings staff with the requisite shuttling between Rochester and Minneapolis. Deja` vu. Given the ages of Meyer and Turner it isn't realistic to conclude that they would be "rushed" to the majors if they were on the Active Roster.

[TheLeviathan]

I'm also confused by the notion that we gave out almost 100 million to have placeholders for prospects. That's some very gaudy placeholders.

[diehardtwinsfan]

What evidence? The Twins said they made an offer to Garza. Few if any details--and nothing about the back-and-forth discussions, like what Garza requested--dates weren't given. My point--said they were "comfortable with $80-85MM" last year maybe they would be comfortable with more this year. But the coincidence of nearly identical payroll from year to year is illuminating especially in light of the previous statement.

 

I don't understand this focus on payroll in a vacuum. The team needed pitching, they went out and spent nearly 100M on pitching, and we are complaining about the one that got away? I'll go a step further and note that Garza hasn't exactly been the model of health during his career either. Given the pitching injuries this team has had, that has to be taken into account.

 

I get that the payroll is the same as last year. I'm not sure why that mattered. With the farm system as it is and the guys up here, there really isn't an easily upgradable need at any postion other than SS, and as we've discussed ad nauseum on this site, there isn't exactly a ton of sure thing SS out there.

[Major League Ready]

If so, then I would speculate Jim Pohlad is asking Terry Ryan why he signed those FA pitchers, if not to make the 2014 team better.

 

Of course they want to make the 2014 team better. There are however several other influences to consider that resulted in favor of this specific investment and the decline of others. The pitching was so bad that it was going to hurt both revenue and the Twins brand which has a long-term effect. They also did not even have any viable options to start the season with perhaps the exception of Gibson. It is debatable whether or not he would be “rushed” if brought up. Age has nothing to do with whether they are ready or not. Regardless of where any of us fall on the Gibson debate, the addition of Nolasco, Hughes, and Pelfrey provides assurance the Twins will finally field a major league pitching staff and end the parade of AAAA SPs. It also provides depth so that we don’t have the catastrophe we had in 2011.

 

If we are going to speculate as to TRs conversations with Jim Pohlad, I would guess he also pointed out that these additions have the maximum impact on the team as compared to say Drew vs Florimon. They also provide good trading chips if we are so fortunate as to have all go well. And, they are not taking away ABs from the many players already on the roster that the Twins need to develop and assess this year. And, the final bonus is they did not require draft pick compensation.

[oldguy10]

Major League Ready - kudos to you for the most reasoned post yet on the situation regarding the signings of Nolasco and Hughes.

[Mike Sixel]

Actually, the A's have several FAs on their roster, including an expensive Cuban. The Rays spent money on FAs this year also. And the Cardinals did sign some FAs to supplement their excellent drafting and developing players. So did the Rangers and Red Sox. The Yankees have been universally successful with mostly FAs.

 

There is no "right way" to win. There is only winning.

 

We've had this conversation. Had Ryan signed a good FA 3 years ago, then a good FA 2 years ago, then a good FA last year, this team probably would not have only won 66 games, and they'd have less holes, and we'd be talking about how they might compete this year. But when you decide to cut your budget, and not sign legit players, then unless your farm is flush (which it wasn't, but is now), your team will get worse. That's what they decided to do. Get worse. Not spend on legit FAs before this year (well, some would say KC was legit, I'd not agree).

 

There is no "evil" in spending your budget to make your team better. There is no "one true way" in sports.

[cmathewson]

I don't believe that they have ever stated the exact reasons:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/7204414/minnesota-twins-dismiss-general-manager-bill-smith-return-terry-ryan-interim

 

In order to discern what "philosophical differences" might mean, you have to look at what Smith was doing -- that would then imply that they wanted a different direction.

 

That's essentially the grounds for my comments. If you look at what Smith did, he routinely traded prospects for aging and expensive players, something Ryan only did once in his career. Also, Smith showed very little understanding of positional value, twice trading ace pitchers, twice trading shortstops and once trading a catcher for pieces one can easily sign through free agency. He did also spend more money than Ryan by about 15%. But I don't think spending was the primary "philosophical" difference between Smith and Ryan. That's just s symptom of a more expedient approach.

 

When they interviewed Ryan after he came back, he said, "I will be more patient than Bill," meaning, I suppose, that he will tend to take the longer view rather than the expedient view Smith took. In GM land, you exercise patience by focusing on the farm system and not trading prospects for aging and expensive players at positions of relative surplus.

[old nurse]

 

There is no "evil" in spending your budget to make your team better. There is no "one true way" in sports.

 

Be a good judge of talent and understand how it fits in with what you have. That would be the the one true way. Bill Smith IMO did not understand talent or how things fit together. Any team that is successful in baseball has a core of talent that they have developed.

[bird]

If so, then I would speculate Jim Pohlad is asking Terry Ryan why he signed those FA pitchers, if not to make the 2014 team better.

 

Not sure I get your logic, Chief. Let's try speculating that Jim and Terry hold the same longer-term view of things. That would maybe explain the multi-year committments to those FA pitchers. They are improving in 2014 and beyond. And let's speculate that perhaps one of the reasons Ryan hasn't pulled the trigger on, say, Drew, is because the extra two wins in 2014 don't mean squat in the longer term, at least not enough to make a bad decision.

[howieramone1406390264]

I'm also confused by the notion that we gave out almost 100 million to have placeholders for prospects. That's some very gaudy placeholders.

 

If you are typifying my post #108 as saying we spent 84M solely for placeholders for prospects you are being silly. I will be happy to clarify the three distinct points I was attempting to make.