Twins Sign Matt Guerrier to Minor League Deal

[AlwaysinModeration]

For some reason, I always thought Guerrier was a real warrior.

[jokin]

Hey is Jacque available for a minor league deal?

 

True there's no downside for the Twins by this.

 

And I trust Terry Ryan as a scout. But collectively, there's something a little off key about bringing back all these former Twins from the glory years. Don't people have that sense or am I imagining things? I will count Pelfrey in that group-I am happy to have him back but he was practically begging on hands and knees to come back here. Why?

 

I can't exactly put my finger on why these ex Twin deals are starting to feel redundant or desperate or whatever, but I will back johnnyd on this! If a couple of these guys perform and help us get back to winning, I will be happy to eat my words.

 

Excellent post. I posted on this a month ago, and predicted this and Santana still to come. This appears to be by design- sort of the opposite marketing objective of the "The Twins...Get to Know 'Em" campaign in the 90s.

[Jim H]

I don't get the opposition to signing Guerrier at all. He isn't that far removed from being an effective short reliever. At 35, he isn't really all that old for a relief pitcher. It is a minor league deal, and he isn't going to be taking up all that many innings this spring that should be going to somebody else. Heck, usually the Twins sent the 40 man guys who aren't going to make the roster to the minor league camp early so if they get hurt in ST they won't have to be carried on the ML DL. So there will likely be innings.

 

If he really looks good this spring and makes the team, it probably means that Pressley or Tonkin or both get AAA seasoning, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. If he doesn't make the team, he is cut or goes to AAA for a month or 2. If there is need he could be called up, more likely he is released by June no matter how he is pitching in AAA.

 

There is very little downside to any of this, maybe some marginal prospect is held back in AA for awhile longer than he would be otherwise. Maybe a kid who could be in the majors like Pressley spends some time in AAA, which again isn't neccessarily a bad thing.

 

It does sort of look like those who are complaining about this signing, are looking pretty hard for a reason to complain about Ryan.

[notoriousgod71]

I don't think anyone is really against this signing. It just makes you sort of roll your eyes since we have also signed Bartlett and Kubel and there are still the Johan rumors.

[jorgenswest]

Many players struggle when entering the majors. It will take an investment of many plate appearances or innings. The pay off is a useful, inexpensive player 2 years down the road.

 

Every inning or at plate appearance given to Kubel, Guerrier or Bartlett is also a lost opportunity to invest in a younger struggling player. Is Tonkin the 2016 closer? Who knows? It will be less likely if he is in AAA and Guerrier is pitching in the 7th inning. Where would would Parmelee be if he had 1000 plate appearances at this point in his career? No one knows. He sat while Doumit played for two 90+ loss teams. I am certain that the Twins would know whether to invest any more at bats in him had he received consistent playing time.

[Seth Stohs]

Bartlett, Kubel and Guerrier are a little different than a lot of typical minor league signings. Kubel hit 30+ homers in 2012. He's not old. Guerrier has had a long career of being a very solid 7/8 inning guy. Bartlett obviously had a couple really solid years and can play a position where the Twins do have a need. All three are legit big leaguers coming off of injuries. If these guys are playing, they're not a downgrade.

 

Nobody wants a talented young player to come up and DH, so Kubel makes a lot of sense. So many think Tonkin is ready, but he's had very little success above AA. Wouldn't hurt him to get some time. Danny Santana isn't nearly ready, so Bartlett makes sense if he's healthy.

 

Are any of them sure things? Of course not. But if one of them contributed heavily to the Twins, that would be tremendous! Considering these three signings and Johan Santana, my thought is that Santana would contribute the least of the four in 2014.

[jokin]

In response to this situation, 'best post ever' in the comments section by someone who calls himself "Monkey Revolution", well worth clicking over for a chuckle or two:

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2014/01/twins-sign-matt-guerrier.html#disqus_thread

[cmathewson]

Bartlett, Kubel and Guerrier are a little different than a lot of typical minor league signings. Kubel hit 30+ homers in 2012. He's not old. Guerrier has had a long career of being a very solid 7/8 inning guy. Bartlett obviously had a couple really solid years and can play a position where the Twins do have a need. All three are legit big leaguers coming off of injuries. If these guys are playing, they're not a downgrade.

 

Nobody wants a talented young player to come up and DH, so Kubel makes a lot of sense. So many think Tonkin is ready, but he's had very little success above AA. Wouldn't hurt him to get some time. Danny Santana isn't nearly ready, so Bartlett makes sense if he's healthy.

 

Are any of them sure things? Of course not. But if one of them contributed heavily to the Twins, that would be tremendous! Considering these three signings and Johan Santana, my thought is that Santana would contribute the least of the four in 2014.

 

Excellent points. I also think the idea of aging veterans blocking younger players is a bit of a myth. Yeah, there are obvious cases where the veteran received unwarranted support. But, for the most part, when the younger player is ready, he'll beat out the veteran. Suppose Guerrier is a solid reliever for a half a season while Tonkin closes games at Rochester. If Tonkin is clearly better, you can trade Guerrier for a prospect and bring Tonkin up. It's not as though Tonkin's development will be stunted.

 

Chris Parmelee was given an extended look for two consecutive years. In both years, he had an OPS+ of 84. It might only be 631 plate appearances, but it's enough to know he's probably not going to be a star. Oh, by the way, the guy who replaced him put up a 102 OPS+ as a 22 year old. He actually has a chance to be a star. And, if Kubel beats Parmelee in ST for DH, fine. Because Kubel actually was a star, and has a chance to return to that level.

[Kirbek]

I hope he is still underrated.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

If they contribute, that's great. I actually like Guerrier's signing the most (of the ex Twins).

 

Here's another idea. So how would people feel if in late May or June Kubel is providing some offense, Bartlett is helping the club, Guerrier is in the pen, and then the Twins hit the skids again and drop 12 games under .500? It's hypothetical so no need to answer. It would lead to some uncomfortable PR, but even worse, it does disrupt the development of younger guys and does kind of clog the roster. I don't think that's completely a myth. I just don't know why Terry signs all of these particular guys en masse under these circumstances and opens himself to that possibility. Well, we shall cross that bridge if we come to it (and hopefully we don't).

[ashbury]

True snow is white, but snow is also black.

 

The Philosophy Of Anaxagoras. I learned something today, by Googling.

 

I did not learn anything today by reading complaints about a minor league signing.

[oldguy10]

In what disjointed universe was Kubel a "star"?

[jay]

This appears to be by design- sort of the opposite marketing objective of the "The Twins...Get to Know 'Em" campaign in the 90s.

 

Thanks for that, pretty darn funny. 2014 - "The Twins... You Already Know 'Em!"

[jay]

Mediocre old guy, or young guy with upside who still has to learn....which would you rather watch in MN or Rochester? If he's mediocre/bad, and goes to Rochester, does a young guy stay in AA that could move up? Does that delay his appearance in MN when he's needed? Those are the possible downsides, imo. Not sure any of them come to fruition, but to imply there is no downside to filling AAA with old guys, as opposed to younger players with upside, well, that seems off to me. There is always downside risk in any move or non-move.

 

C'mon, mike. We can all dream up unlikely scenarios to make something sound bad. Depth is a GOOD thing. I think it says a lot in the positive that the Twins have been able to get guys that have been competent major leaguers to come in on minor league deals. Even if Guerrier pitches in AAA, there are other fringe minor leaguers that can be let go if a prospect needs to be moved up.

 

You seem to like your prospects in Minnesota yesterday just about no matter what though, so I'm not sure you'll ever be satisfied through that prism...

[Mike Sixel]

Unlikely? Do you recall Bartlett sitting in the minors while an old, bad player continues to play?

 

Different fans like different things. That doesn't make any of us wrong. Liking a team and rooting for them is irrational. So there is no really wrong way to be a fan. I would rather pay to watch young guys with upside on a bad team, than I would to watch old guys with no future on a bad team. I don't get how that makes me bad/evil/wrong kind of fan. Just different than you or some others.

[jay]

Not saying it makes you a bad fan at all, just different, like you said. This team absolutely needs depth though and this is a no-risk, no-money way to do that. I'd rather see Guerrier come up to pitch if needed than some poor kid who isn't ready while burning option years with the potential to actually harm his development more than help. Not many examples of any decent prospects that never made it to MLB because they were blocked for eternity. Might not be as soon as you'd like, but talent always rises to the top...

[Mike Sixel]

I don't worry about option years for relief pitchers. Thanks for the polite respone, btw. Sometimes when we disagree here (we meaning all of us), it isn't always polite.

 

I also don't share the worry about relief pitchers having their development stunted as much as you, but I get that concern.

 

Again, I'm not saying something bad is likely to happen. I just don't agree that the downside risk (for this year and the future) is as small or non-existent as others. I also don't really see the upside, frankly. People say not to sign Drew, because he's not going to help the team compete, but are good signing a 35 year old reliever that is likely to be used in inning 5 or 6 given the current pen? I would rather they roll the dice on young guys. I can see the other side of the argumet.

 

Finally, I think that if this was an isolated instance, I'd probably not comment on it. But with Kubel and Bartlett also being signed? I don't like the strategy much. I'm actually more worried Bartlett is up here, blocking Escobar, than I am about Matty Ice blocking Tonkin.

[jay]

I do get where you're coming from. I'd point to last year as an example of what can happen when you don't have depth. Poor Aaron Hicks is forced to struggle for far too long at MLB because there truly weren't any other real options. Last year was a lost cause for him, possibly (likely?) as a direct result. Very possible his development was harmed, not helped, by being forced in to MLB action.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

jay, part of the job of the front office is to dream up scenarios…much of the Twins community has seemingly spent the last part of 2012 and entire 2013 seasons asking "How did this happen?" when in hindsight there were some pretty clear warning markers.

[70charger]

For some reason, I always thought Guerrier was a real warrior.

 

I get it. Good one.

[jokin]

I don't worry about option years for relief pitchers. Thanks for the polite respone, btw. Sometimes when we disagree here (we meaning all of us), it isn't always polite.

 

I also don't share the worry about relief pitchers having their development stunted as much as you, but I get that concern.

 

Again, I'm not saying something bad is likely to happen. I just don't agree that the downside risk (for this year and the future) is as small or non-existent as others. I also don't really see the upside, frankly. People say not to sign Drew, because he's not going to help the team compete, but are good signing a 35 year old reliever that is likely to be used in inning 5 or 6 given the current pen?

 

I would rather they roll the dice on young guys. I can see the other side of the argumet.

 

Finally, I think that if this was an isolated instance, I'd probably not comment on it. But with Kubel and Bartlett also being signed? I don't like the strategy much. I'm actually more worried Bartlett is up here, blocking Escobar, than I am about Matty Ice blocking Tonkin.

 

Inconsistency in thought processes, re Drew/Guerrier, duly noted.

 

This Guerrier signing is a head-scratcher if this team is just signing old Twins retreads simply because they're low-hanging, feel-good, fruit......AND, if it's totally at the expense of not also looking for high-reward, cheap, low-risk potential opportunities that fit in with a team that is rebuilding a base of younger, but major-league-ready, RP pitching depth......... particularly when someone like 26-year old, Brayan Villareal could be claimed from the Red Sox and then signed on a similar sort of deal.

[cmathewson]

Inconsistency in thought processes, re Drew/Guerrier, duly noted.

 

This Guerrier signing is a head-scratcher if this team is just signing old Twins retreads simply because they're low-hanging, feel-good, fruit......AND, if it's totally at the expense of not also looking for high-reward, cheap, low-risk potential opportunities that fit in with a team that is rebuilding a base of younger, but major-league-ready, RP pitching depth......... particularly when someone like 26-year old, Brayan Villareal could be claimed from the Red Sox and then signed on a similar sort of deal.

 

In isolation, this move is innocuous. Calling it part of a greater strategy is giving it too much thought. Guerrier has had a lot more success in his career than Villereal. So, perhaps they thought he had a better chance to be successful. Age has very little to do with it. Neither pitcher is likely to be around when this team matures into a contender.

[jokin]

In isolation, this move is innocuous. Calling it part of a greater strategy is giving it too much thought. Guerrier has had a lot more success in his career than Villereal. So, perhaps they thought he had a better chance to be successful. Age has very little to do with it. Neither pitcher is likely to be around when this team matures into a contender.

 

If you re-read my words, I didn't suggest either-or, or specify any one pitcher opposed to signing Guerrier to a minor league deal; and I also agree, that the signing of Guerrier is inocuous, in and of itself.

 

But, the Twins in their current situation should always have their eyes on younger, better upside talent that might be around when the Twins become a contender. Fien and Burton, guys who resurrected themselves from the scrap-heap are the guiding force for this sort of "grand strategy" and it has served the Twins quite well. And unlike both of them, Villareal is 4 years younger than them at the same point of potential acquisition, and unlike Fien and Burton, are only one year removed from a better season than either Fien or Burton ever had previous to their signing with the Twins. So while neither may or may not be likely to be around when the Twins contend, niether are Fien and Burton, but not so curiously, both of the latter two are still around, why not kick the tires on an upside guy like Villareal?

[diehardtwinsfan]

When Guerrier was healthy, he was a pretty good pitcher. I'd argue that is high upside. The same can be said on the offensive side for Kubel and Bartlett. Both were pretty good players when they were healthy. If they can recapture that, they get flipped to a team for a nice prospect at the deadline.

[Major League Ready]

If you re-read my words, I didn't suggest either-or, or specify any one pitcher opposed to signing Guerrier to a minor league deal; and I also agree, that the signing of Guerrier is inocuous, in and of itself.

 

But, the Twins in their current situation should always have their eyes on younger, better upside talent that might be around when the Twins become a contender. Fien and Burton, guys who resurrected themselves from the scrap-heap are the guiding force for this sort of "grand strategy" and it has served the Twins quite well. And unlike both of them, Villareal is 4 years younger than them at the same point of potential acquisition, and unlike Fien and Burton, are only one year removed from a better season than either Fien or Burton ever had previous to their signing with the Twins. So while neither may or may not be likely to be around when the Twins contend, niether are Fien and Burton, but not so curiously, both of the latter two are still around, why not kick the tires on an upside guy like Villareal?

 

I don’t think it makes sense to assume they signed Guerrier instead of Villareal. Why would the signing of Guerrier in any way prohibit signing Villareal?

 

I see these moves as a higher probability of creating assets as compared to someone like Villareal. As DTF suggests, Guerrier, Kubel, and Bartlett could bring a nice asset or two at the deadline and those assets are likely a higher ceiling prospect than Villareal IMO. So, how can the acquisition of someone like Guerrier be a bad move? Sometimes the path to building assets is not a straight line.

[jay]

why not kick the tires on an upside guy like Villareal?

 

Do you know for a fact that they haven't?

 

An important difference from Guerrier is that Villarreal was designated for assignment and, if claimed off waivers, would require an immediate spot on the 40 man roster.

[jokin]

When Guerrier was healthy, he was a pretty good pitcher. I'd argue that is high upside. The same can be said on the offensive side for Kubel and Bartlett. Both were pretty good players when they were healthy. If they can recapture that, they get flipped to a team for a nice prospect at the deadline.

 

 

 

 

 

I don’t think it makes sense to assume they signed Guerrier instead of Villareal. Why would the signing of Guerrier in any way prohibit signing Villareal?

 

I see these moves as a higher probability of creating assets as compared to someone like Villareal. As DTF suggests, Guerrier, Kubel, and Bartlett could bring a nice asset or two at the deadline and those assets are likely a higher ceiling prospect than Villareal IMO. So, how can the acquisition of someone like Guerrier be a bad move? Sometimes the path to building assets is not a straight line.

 

Do you know for a fact that they haven't?

 

An important difference from Guerrier is that Villarreal was designated for assignment and, if claimed off waivers, would require an immediate spot on the 40 man roster.

 

The Twins can certainly do both, and that's exactly what I'm advocating for. (Incidentally, both LEN3 and Reusse lampooned the idea of Guerrier having ANY chance of making the club- Bartlett, too- Kubel, slightly better chance, but very negative on his chances for helping the Twins----- how do you conclude that they somehow have the potential to bring a higher ceiling prospect than a 26 year old smoke thrower- one year removed from a terrific year?). I prefer also bringing in guys that have a decent, and more realistic chance at helping the club- for just about the same cost! There also is a current roster spot available, and certainly Villareal can be DFA'd at any point between now and April 1, whenever the timing is right, dependent on how interested the Twins might be at retaining his services, longer term.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I don’t think it makes sense to assume they signed Guerrier instead of Villareal. Why would the signing of Guerrier in any way prohibit signing Villareal?

 

I see these moves as a higher probability of creating assets as compared to someone like Villareal. As DTF suggests, Guerrier, Kubel, and Bartlett could bring a nice asset or two at the deadline and those assets are likely a higher ceiling prospect than Villareal IMO. So, how can the acquisition of someone like Guerrier be a bad move? Sometimes the path to building assets is not a straight line.

 

Assuming both are free agents, once one of them signs here, the other is less likely to follow suit, just because it will be more difficult to win a job against that competition. It would be most obvious in the case of Kubel who seems to be our presumptive DU despite his minor league deal. I would guess no other DU candidates would want to sign here after that (unless their salary was significant enough to guarantee playing IME, like Morales).

 

Guerrier might factor similarly -- it is already a crowded MLB pen and Guerrier is a vet and familiar with the team. That could easily dissuade similar guys from signing here.

[jay]

Guerrier might factor similarly -- it is already a crowded MLB pen and Guerrier is a vet and familiar with the team. That could easily dissuade similar guys from signing here.

 

Does not apply to Villarreal. They are rather different actually. Villarreal was DFA'd and goes to whichever team claims him along with a corresponding add to the 40-man roster. If he goes unclaimed, the Sox will stash him in the minors.

[jokin]

Assuming both are free agents, once one of them signs here, the other is less likely to follow suit, just because it will be more difficult to win a job against that competition.

 

It would be most obvious in the case of Kubel who seems to be our presumptive DU despite his minor league deal. I would guess no other DU candidates would want to sign here after that (unless their salary was significant enough to guarantee playing IME, like Morales).

 

Guerrier might factor similarly -- it is already a crowded MLB pen and Guerrier is a vet and familiar with the team. That could easily dissuade similar guys from signing here.

 

Besides pooh-poohing the notion that Guerrier (or Bartlett, for that matter) have any chance of making the Twins opening day roster yesterday evening, Patrick Reusse had this to say about Kubel in his most recent Strib blog, I tend to agree:

 

 If Jason Kubel has 400 plate appearances this season, the Twins will again lose more than 90 games. He’s no answer to a feeble lineup.http://apps.startribune.com/most_popular/?cmd=inc&type=view&section=/sports/blogs&story_id=243120681

 

http://www.startribune.com/sports/blogs/243120681.html