LHP Pedro Hernandez signed with the Rockies

[jorgenswest]

Liriano made a great decision for his career.

 

Going to the Pirates put him in an environment with a very good defense behind him and one of the best defensive catchers in baseball.

 

Any free agent pitcher trying to build value towards their next contract should be advised to strongly consider the Pirates. Josh Johnson and Phil Hughes should be first in line.

[TheLeviathan]

That theory didnt seem to apply in the Ortiz thread.

 

And I would totally agree. I think the mistake was not letting Ortiz go (and possibly same with Liriano) but the awful way in which is abilities were hampered by our coaching staff.

[Guest USAFChief]

And I would totally agree. I think the mistake was not letting Ortiz go (and possibly same with Liriano) but the awful way in which is abilities were hampered by our coaching staff.

Fair enough.

[goulik]

Totally agree, but for some reason, for some people Ryan, Gardenhire and Anderson & Co can do nothing wrong. And I don't know a single other organization in baseball that would have kept any of the three after the 99+96+96 in a row.

 

The obvious reason is after the first losing season, Bill Smith was fired for ruining our organization and the official line is that it's not Gardys fault the talent has sucked. Regressions and poor performances are putting that theory in question and I would not hate a change in coaches, I am just agreeing that there is a good arguements. tR is getting deserved heat for the third season but grace because we see the minors have been rebuilt by him the past two years. That grace is run its course and this off season makes or breaks him... It has to translate to the MLB level. This year.

[Thrylos]

The obvious reason is after the first losing season, Bill Smith was fired for ruining our organization .

 

Terry Ryan v.2 has a worse record than Bill Smith. And Bill Smith did not make the Gomez, Hardy and Capps trades, the Nishioka acquisition and the ill-advised contract extensions to Blackburn, Pavano etc by himself. He is not a baseball person. He made them because of recommendations by Gardy (n Andy) and the Front Office scout people. How Smith is to blame and all of those others who actually made the recommendations are not, is a mystery. If you blame Smith for 2011 you have to blame Ryan for 2012 and 2013 and give Smith credit for 2010.

 

And as far as who "destroyed" teams, Ryan is the one who "destroyed" the World Champion teams that MacPhail had built. But he never gets any heat for that (or for his role in the contraction business.)

 

Teflon.

[John Bonnes]

Well here's why I hated it:

 

http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?r=852-Ten-Things-I-HATE-About-The-Liriano-Trade

 

My primary criticism was on the timing. When the Liriano trade was made, he was the best remaining arm available, had been really, really good for two months, but his last start had been a clunker. But he had one more start before the deadline and the Twins traded him within 24 hours of it. Why not wait until the next start?

 

It it wasn't because the offer was so compelling. At the time we knew what these guys were and they were just that. For that matter they weren't even far enough from the majors to project any real career. They were just two AAA guys with no future other than eating service time.

 

It felt like Ryan panicked.

[howieramone1406390264]

Well here's why I hated it:

 

http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?r=852-Ten-Things-I-HATE-About-The-Liriano-Trade

 

My primary criticism was on the timing. When the Liriano trade was made, he was the best remaining arm available, had been really, really good for two months, but his last start had been a clunker. But he had one more start before the deadline and the Twins traded him within 24 hours of it. Why not wait until the next start?

 

It it wasn't because the offer was so compelling. At the time we knew what these guys were and they were just that. For that matter they weren't even far enough from the majors to project any real career. They were just two AAA guys with no future other than eating service time.

 

It felt like Ryan panicked.

 

I think most Twins fans looked on this trade with profound indifference. Terry Ryan panic, not likely.

[Guest USAFChief]

... profound indifference ...

Not a situation a sports franchise should ever hope to achieve.

[howieramone1406390264]

Not a situation a sports franchise should ever hope to achieve.

 

Really? Are you one of the ones that got upset when the Twins accepted cash for Jamey Carroll rather than a PTBNL? Maybe it's my business background, but I don't sweat the small stuff.

[nicksaviking]

Really? Are you one of the ones that got upset when the Twins accepted cash for Jamey Carroll rather than a PTBNL? Maybe it's my business background, but I don't sweat the small stuff.

 

The trade of the teams best starter is small stuff?

[The Wise One]

The trade of the teams best starter is small stuff?

 

For that year Diamond was the best starter on the team based on performance for that year.

In regards to trading the "top" starter being small stuff, would trading any of the starters off last year's team not named Gibson be much more than that?

[kab21]

Well here's why I hated it:

 

http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?r=852-Ten-Things-I-HATE-About-The-Liriano-Trade

 

My primary criticism was on the timing. When the Liriano trade was made, he was the best remaining arm available, had been really, really good for two months, but his last start had been a clunker. But he had one more start before the deadline and the Twins traded him within 24 hours of it. Why not wait until the next start?

 

It it wasn't because the offer was so compelling. At the time we knew what these guys were and they were just that. For that matter they weren't even far enough from the majors to project any real career. They were just two AAA guys with no future other than eating service time.

 

It felt like Ryan panicked.

 

This is sugarcoating it. Liriano had been terrible for 1.5 yrs before putting together a solid 1.5 month stretch. And then he was terrible again after the trade. Waiting an extra start wasn't going to bring in a better offer.

[TheLeviathan]

This is sugarcoating it. Liriano had been terrible for 1.5 yrs before putting together a solid 1.5 month stretch. And then he was terrible again after the trade. Waiting an extra start wasn't going to bring in a better offer.

 

Terrible doesn't quite cover it. You could argue he was one of the worst starters in baseball (among those who didn't get cut or demoted) for that year and a half. You could make a really strong case for it.

 

Ryan can, and has, and will make many mistakes. But dumping Liriano isn't on that list.

[Guest USAFChief]

Really? Are you one of the ones that got upset when the Twins accepted cash for Jamey Carroll rather than a PTBNL? Maybe it's my business background, but I don't sweat the small stuff.

Yes, really. Indifference from a fan base is bad. It's hard to sell tickets to a fan base that has lost interest.

 

Maybe it's my military background, but I've often found attention to small details one key factor in determining success or failure. Although, in this case, I think one could make the case that an organization desperate for starting pitching dumping one who immediately goes 16-8 with a 3.02 ERA and earns a few CYA votes along the way is not properly categorized as "small stuff" to begin with.

[IdahoPilgrim]

Although, in this case, I think one could make the case that an organization desperate for starting pitching dumping one who immediately goes 16-8 with a 3.02 ERA and earns a few CYA votes along the way is not properly categorized as "small stuff" to begin with.

 

Except that he didn't immediately go 16-8 with a 3.02 ERA - he went 3-2 with a 5.40 ERA and a 1.518 WHIP with Chicago last year - and ended up in their pen at least once too because of ineffectiveness.

 

Time will tell whether the 2013 season is another blip on the Liriano radar that quickly fades into mediocrity (like 2010) or is the start of sustained success.

 

In any case, it wasn't going to happen here.

[nicksaviking]

For that year Diamond was the best starter on the team based on performance for that year.

In regards to trading the "top" starter being small stuff, would trading any of the starters off last year's team not named Gibson be much more than that?

 

Trading Liriano would have been bigger news than trading anyone from last year's rotation not named Gibson due to Liriano's name value and the fact that he is the only pitcher the Twins have had since Santana was moved that had the pitches and make up to be higher than a #3 starter.

 

Still, even if the Twins had traded Correia or Pelfrey last year, it wouldn't have been "small stuff." Unless the team is dumping a utility player or extra bullpen arms, I don't think moving anyone from the 25 man roster is a small move.

[gil4]

It's ok to admit it was a poor decision to trade him for nothing before at least exploring an extension. It was.

 

Just like its ok to look back on the Hardy deal, releasing Ortiz, and other ill advised personnel moves made, in the hopes that maybe they'll not be repeated.

 

I couldn't read " Hardy deal" and "ill advised" without having the gut reaction that you are being far too kind. The Twins have made some bone-headed personnel moves, but that one still makes me want to type words that that would get me banned.

 

We finally had an above-average SS, and management didn't even realize it. Instead of looking to extend him, they dumped him for garbage. (Just to clarify - Mrs Hoey, in the unlikely event you're reading this, yes, I called your son garbage. I only did so because I didn't want to use the words that would get me banned that I mentioned in the previous paragraph.)

 

I at least understood the Ortiz move at the time. I knew he had some disagreement with the coaching staff, but I had no idea he could be that good.

[diehardtwinsfan]

ok, do we really think that Chicago was going to give up something more for Liriano? Do we think that he was going to stay had he not been traded? I'm skeptical either way.

[nicksaviking]

ok, do we really think that Chicago was going to give up something more for Liriano?

 

They didn't have to give up more. The Twins just needed to get whatever the equivalent value was in non 40-man roster players.

[diehardtwinsfan]

They didn't have to give up more. The Twins just needed to get whatever the equivalent value was in non 40-man roster players.

 

I get your point, but it takes 2 to trade, and it's quite possible that those options weren't on the table.

[stringer bell]

I liked it when the Twins acquired Hardy and was disappointed when they traded him, but his performance in his only year with the Twins wasn't above average. He has absolutely found a home in Baltimore and has been one of the best shortstops in the AL. On Liriano, what remained of the fan base was completely fed up with his performance. Minnesota seems to be in a rut right now--they hold on to too many guys for too long--but when they let one go he thrives.

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

I think far too often we assume that a player's performance one year would've been the same regardless of where he played. It's too hypothetical to be said with certainty.

 

I agree. Liriano would have just laid another egg here, but it's frustrating that our coaches...cough...Andy.. didn't fix him when they had ample time. I was actually hoping he'd come back in the offseason. Would have been nice to have one pitcher who at least has some potential to be good. As for Pedro Hernandez, good riddance. I couldn't stand him as a Twin, but it'll be much more easier to root for him when he's with the Rockies.