Correia's last day with the Twins...

[AROG]

Back on point for me. I think the Twins should trade him early next year. Whenever a team like the Angels or Dodgers gets a big injury early in their season they want to trade for someone that call fill the gap. That would be the best time to get something for Correia, He will still be pitching well and have some value to the new team because his contract is up at years end.

[ashbury]

If only there were partial year big league contracts ..... like signing Correia for just April and May or Delmon Young for just August and September.

 

Too bad they want to be paid for the whole season.

 

Roger Clemens seemed to have the process worked out the way he liked, near the end of his career.

[Mike Sixel]

Back on point for me. I think the Twins should trade him early next year. Whenever a team like the Angels or Dodgers gets a big injury early in their season they want to trade for someone that call fill the gap. That would be the best time to get something for Correia, He will still be pitching well and have some value to the new team because his contract is up at years end.

 

I'd say that if at any point Ryan gets an offer of anything, he should take it.....but I know the scouts don't agree....

[Brock Beauchamp]

Yeah, his may was bad too. He also had a great April and did just fine in June. He is a mediocre pitcher and inconsistencies are to be expected. The problem is that the bad starts are becoming more and more common.

 

Yep. Mediocre pitchers have months like Correia has had thus far. One great month, another one or two acceptable months, and then absolutely awful other months. That's how players end up with a league average ERA... We can't expect 6 IP, 3 ER every start.

 

On the other hand, hoooooo boy has he looked bad lately. Given his track record of fading as the season progressed, it's not a good sign and he may end up with some pretty bad numbers by season's end.

[Rosterman]

At this point, if someone claimed him on the waiver wire, I would let them take him. We gave up nothing to get him, and it would be a way to get out of his salary next season.

 

But I can't help but think about all the players the Twins have that might go unclaimed on the waiver wire.

 

Carroll, Roeincke, Thomas, Ramirez.

 

Of course, then you could trade them.

 

If someone claimed Morneau, would you be wise to let him go for nothing with the hopes of resigning him next year for a song?

 

At this point, I could see just getting rid of fringe guys and salary and opening up roster spots and playing time for others that MAY be here in 2014 or 2015.

[ThePuck]

Correia hasn't finished a season with a league average ERA or better since he became a starter. Closest he came was 2009 pitching half his games in Petco.

[NoCal]

Sorry for the careless use of adjective "solid"; actually, Shields is very good. Same question tho: would you be willing to trade the Twins top prospect for a very good major league starter, with two years of team control? Or build with patience, and the Correias......

[ThePuck]

Sorry for the careless use of adjective "solid"; actually, Shields is very good. Same question tho: would you be willing to trade the Twins top prospect for a very good major league starter, with two years of team control? Or build with patience, and the Correias......

 

IMO, it was the right move for Moore this year based on the young talent they have on that team with some MLB experience under their belts and expectations that talent would trend up. We are nowhere near where KC was going into this year in that regard. In that link I gave, it explains why he did what he did...and I agree.

[drjim]

IMO, it was the right move for Moore this year based on the young talent they have on that team with some MLB experience under their belts and expectations that talent would trend up. We are nowhere near where KC was going into this year in that regard. In that link I gave, it explains why he did what he did...and I agree.

 

I agree with this. Good risk for Moore that might pay off yet. Twins were no way near that position last offseason.

[Mike Sixel]

Sorry for the careless use of adjective "solid"; actually, Shields is very good. Same question tho: would you be willing to trade the Twins top prospect for a very good major league starter, with two years of team control? Or build with patience, and the Correias......

 

When Sano, Buxton, Arcia, and Rosario are all up, and all have at least 1 year experience, would I trade the next hitter in the org for a guy that is top 10 in WAR for 2 years, if I thought those hitters on my roster were legit, and I thought I already had a number 3 and 5 pitcher, and I also got another pitcher, and I thought my job was on the line? Yes, yes I would.

[LaBombo]

Sorry for the careless use of adjective "solid"; actually, Shields is very good. Same question tho: would you be willing to trade the Twins top prospect for a very good major league starter, with two years of team control? Or build with patience, and the Correias......

You're far from the only one using that adjective; just thought I'd throw out some numbers for a guy who still doesn't seem to get credit from a surprising number of people for being one of the AL's best.

 

KC's situation is very different from the Twins of today. They have a solid young core coming off various shades of down years, sort of like the 1985 Twins had. Most of those guys either returned to form or even took big strides forward in 1986, maturing as individuals and as a team before winning it all in '87.

 

This doesn't look like KC's year, but they're on pace to finish with 85 wins, light years ahead of the '86 Twins and exactly as many as the '87 champs. Detroit will have something to say about the division championship again next year, with almost all their major pieces signed through 2014, so 85 wins probably won't get it done next year either.

 

But KC has a very good 1/2/3 rotation (although Santana's a free agent due a big payday), Wade Davis improving at least peripherally, and a couple of 2014-ETA pitching prospects. Almost all of their hitters are young enough to potentially make '86-Twins-like strides forward.

 

So while the Tigers will probably own the Central again next year, the division has not historically had two Yanks/BoSox-style titans most years. A Royals wildcard bid seems possible, and will look even more likely if their kids turn it up in the two remaining months of this season.

 

Short story long, no, wouldn't trade Sano or Buxton for two years of Shields. He's a free agent anyway FA when they might contend in 2015, so they could sign him without losing a prospect. Well, if they did that sort of thing, anyway.

 

But no, sir, no Correia either. His upside was a couple of extra meaningless wins yet no real trade value, and his downside has been on display since his Faustian bargain's 30 day free home trial expired at the end of April.

[drjim]

When Sano, Buxton, Arcia, and Rosario are all up, and all have at least 1 year experience, would I trade the next hitter in the org for a guy that is top 10 in WAR for 2 years, if I thought those hitters on my roster were legit, and I thought I already had a number 3 and 5 pitcher, and I also got another pitcher, and I thought my job was on the line? Yes, yes I would.

 

Sign me up for that as well. But not yet.

[Brock Beauchamp]

When Sano, Buxton, Arcia, and Rosario are all up, and all have at least 1 year experience, would I trade the next hitter in the org for a guy that is top 10 in WAR for 2 years, if I thought those hitters on my roster were legit, and I thought I already had a number 3 and 5 pitcher, and I also got another pitcher, and I thought my job was on the line? Yes, yes I would.

 

Sure, and that'd be a smart move. The problem with the Shields trade is that Moore had no reason to think the young hitters in KC were legit.

 

On the other hand, Wil Myers, 154 OPS+ in Tampa. Moore simply opened a hole by closing another one, except the hole he closed is only for two years instead of six or seven.

[Oxtung]

I thought the Correia signing was terrible at the time and I still do. That said, he is not as bad as he has shown the last 3 or 4 starts either. I know it's easy to overreact to a recent start but he will get things back on track at some point. Personally I'm not going to get too upset about him anymore because he will be around for another year because he is, and probably always was, not tradeable. It was a bad decision and we're paying for it now but it will be a long year if I get upset after every bad start he makes.

[Oxtung]

Sure, and that'd be a smart move. The problem with the Shields trade is that Moore had no reason to think the young hitters in KC were legit.

 

On the other hand, Wil Myers, 154 OPS+ in Tampa. Moore simply opened a hole by closing another one, except the hole he closed is only for two years instead of six or seven.

 

That is probably true, but the hole he closed is a #1 pitcher which is quite a bit harder to find than an outfielder. Quite a bit more expensive as well. I don't find this move to be clear cut either way.

[Brock Beauchamp]

That is probably true, but the hole he closed is a #1 pitcher which is quite a bit harder to find than an outfielder. Quite a bit more expensive as well. I don't find this move to be clear cut either way.

 

Aces are certainly harder to find than outfielders but there was absolutely nothing stopping Moore from doing this kind of deal two years from now when he knows what he actually needs instead of making a deal and then hoping and praying that guys take a step forward. That's my issue with it.

[TheLeviathan]

Aces are certainly harder to find than outfielders but there was absolutely nothing stopping Moore from doing this kind of deal two years from now when he knows what he actually needs instead of making a deal and then hoping and praying that guys take a step forward. That's my issue with it.

 

Well, other than the availability of such a starter in trade and a sufficient piece to move to get him. I'd argue that's a whole heckuva lot more than "nothing".

[Brock Beauchamp]

Well, other than the availability of such a starter in trade and a sufficient piece to move to get him. I'd argue that's a whole heckuva lot more than "nothing".

 

It's not that hard to find a mediocre team willing to part with a very good starter when you're offering a young stud with 4+ years of control. What do you think the Phillies would say if the Twins offered Arcia for Lee, much less Sano or Buxton for Lee?

 

And if the Royals don't have a young stud to trade, isn't this a moot point?

[TheLeviathan]

It's not that hard to find a mediocre team willing to part with a very good starter when you're offering a young stud with 4+ years of control. What do you think the Phillies would say if the Twins offered Arcia for Lee, much less Sano or Buxton for Lee?

 

And if the Royals don't have a young stud to trade, isn't this a moot point?

 

Not at all. You're minimizing this by suggesting there is some kind of regular market for aces in trade. Shields is an ace with several years of affordable team control (who pitched for a pretty good team) who isn't aging or possessing an albatross of a contract. So your Lee/Arcia comp really doesn't work here.

 

And, many teams that are young or trying to make that next step are doing so because all of their talent is in the majors and their trade chips aren't significant enough to pull such a deal.

 

I have a feeling your tune on how easy it is to acquire top-flight pitching might change in a few years when we end up needing it and struggle to find it.

[ThePuck]

Sure, and that'd be a smart move. The problem with the Shields trade is that Moore had no reason to think the young hitters in KC were legit.

 

 

That is straight up opinion...and I couldn't disagree more. Obviously Moore disagrees as well and he should.

 

Moustakas is young, a former #2 draft pick, hit 20HRs and had an OPS in the 700s last year, Escobar had an OPS in the mid .720s. Perez, a HIGHLY regarded up and coming catcher, had an OPS just under .800s. Butler had an OPS just under .900 and in the .800s for a few years. Gordon had an OPS in the .800s the last two years. Those five are young and improvement should have very well been expected since they are starting into or in their prime. At very minimum, they should have been expected to hold...not all take a dump.

 

I don't know how you can say Moore shouldn't have expected these guys to be legit. They've already been legit, some for at least a couple years..and again, all coming into or in their prime.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Not at all. You're minimizing this by suggesting there is some kind of regular market for aces in trade. Shields is an ace with several years of affordable team control (who pitched for a pretty good team) who isn't aging or possessing an albatross of a contract. So your Lee/Arcia comp really doesn't work here.

 

And, many teams that are young or trying to make that next step are doing so because all of their talent is in the majors and their trade chips aren't significant enough to pull such a deal.

 

I have a feeling your tune on how easy it is to acquire top-flight pitching might change in a few years when we end up needing it and struggle to find it.

 

Shields is not under control for several years, he's under control for two.

 

And the Royals have wasted 50% of that time already.

 

If you have the goods, you can rent a very good pitcher. He may not be James Shields but he'll be well above average.

[ThePuck]

Royals haven't wasted anything...they are right in the playoff hunt...due mostly to their PITCHING and the offense is starting to come on.

[jorgenswest]

Not at all. You're minimizing this by suggesting there is some kind of regular market for aces in trade. Shields is an ace with several years of affordable team control (who pitched for a pretty good team) who isn't aging or possessing an albatross of a contract. So your Lee/Arcia comp really doesn't work here.

 

The Royals traded 7 years of Myers for 2 years of Shields.

 

The argument about the timing is reasonable. Three key offensive players (Hosmer, Moustakis, Perez) won't be entering their prime seasons until 2016. Shields is Royal property through 2014.

 

The argument that the value of two years of a very good starting pitcher is worth a top batting prospect is also reasonable.

 

Did the Royals time it right or should they have had more patience? Minimally, they need to make the playoffs before Shields leaves.

[drjim]

Aces are certainly harder to find than outfielders but there was absolutely nothing stopping Moore from doing this kind of deal two years from now when he knows what he actually needs instead of making a deal and then hoping and praying that guys take a step forward. That's my issue with it.

 

I agree fully with what the other posters said in defense of this trade, I thought it was a worthwhile risk for Moore to take. The other elephant in the room for Moore is that if the team didn't take a step forward this year he won't have to worry about two years from now. It was fortunate for the Royals that the interest of the team and the interest of Moore matched up. It was time for them to take that risk.

 

And to circle back to the Twins, it is fortunate that Ryan doesn't feel similar insecurity this season. It is quite reasonable to disagree with many of his moves, but there should be confidence that what he is doing is in his opinion for the best long term interest of the franchise. A GM with less security might have flipped a prospect or two to chase a few more meaningless wins while causing damage to the long term outlook of the franchise.

[Brock Beauchamp]

That is straight up opinion...and I couldn't disagree more. Obviously Moore disagrees as well and he should.

 

Moustakas is young, a former #2 draft pick, hit 20HRs and had an OPS in the 700s last year, Escobar had an OPS in the mid .720s. Perez, a HIGHLY regarded up and coming catcher, had an OPS just under .800s. Butler had an OPS just under .900 and in the .800s for a few years. Gordon had an OPS in the .800s the last two years. Those five are young and improvement should have very well been expected since they are starting into or in their prime. At very minimum, they should have been expected to hold...not all take a dump.

 

I don't know how you can say Moore shouldn't have expected these guys to be legit. They've already been legit, some for at least a couple years..and again, all coming into or in their prime.

 

So what you're saying is that their hitters looked legit because two guys posted an OPS over .800 last season? The Royals finished 2012 ranked 12th in the AL in OPS+.

 

And I don't really care what Moore thought... He was obviously wrong. I argued this same point last offseason and from the outside, it didn't take much foresight to see that Moore was stepping out on a very shaky limb with these moves.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Royals haven't wasted anything...they are right in the playoff hunt...due mostly to their PITCHING and the offense is starting to come on.

 

The Royals are in third place and eight games out of first. It'd take a small miracle for them to pass Detroit.

[ThePuck]

The Royals are in third place and eight games out of first. It'd take a small miracle for them to pass Detroit.

 

Winning the division isn't the only way to be in the playoff hunt, but whatever.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Winning the division isn't the only way to be in the playoff hunt, but whatever.

 

The Royals have to pass more teams to win the WC than they do to win the division.

[TheLeviathan]

Shields is not under control for several years, he's under control for two.

 

You call me out for that small distinction after you comped Shields to Cliff Lee? Cmon, you know what I was saying. He wasn't a rental and the dollar sign on the price tag was EXTREMELY reasonable.

 

As for "wasting" it - they're in the playoff hunt right now. I wouldn't call that wasting anything.

[TheLeviathan]

So what you're saying is that their hitters looked legit because two guys posted an OPS over .800 last season? The Royals finished 2012 ranked 12th in the AL in OPS+.

 

How many years must a young hitter consecutively post an OPS of .800 before it's worthwhile to augment the team around them?

 

What Moore did was anticipate and trust the talent on his team. Why would any GM act in any other way?