Tigers 7, Twins 2: This One Was Ugly From the Start

[MeleMouth]

23 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

So sit Minter? 

Nothing against Minter, but the only reasons to pitch him now would be either if you want to try to get to 78 wins instead of 74 or you don't want to overuse anyone else.

[DJL44]

2 minutes ago, MeleMouth said:

Nothing against Minter, but the only reasons to pitch him now would be either if you want to try to get to 78 wins instead of 74 or you don't want to overuse anyone else.

So the only reason to use Minter is to try to win baseball games. I think it is a good to set expectations for young players that the team is trying to win baseball games.

[MeleMouth]

10 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

So the only reason to use Minter is to try to win baseball games. I think it is a good to set expectations for young players that the team is trying to win baseball games.

Wow. You really think these guys have never thought that winning was the goal of playing sports? Or that playing young players for development instead of veterans for wins might warp their behavior for the rest of their careers? Sorry for the snark, but like for like.

[Danchat]

26 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Ryan Jeffers is a veteran with no future with the team. Should they sit him for the rest of the season and play Alex Jackson?

Jackson isn't a prospect, he's an almost 31 year old fringe backup who was DFA'd and cleared waivers 2-3 weeks ago. They don't have a catcher in AAA who has a chance to be a major leaguer, so in that case they should keep playing Jeffers.

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

Ross. 

Seems like he's just up to get a cup of coffee and then get DFA'd after the season is over. No reason to call him up just to sit and take up a 40 man spot over the offseason if they actually believed in him. 

42 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

So scholarships for players who haven’t earned playing time?

What's with the gatekeeping for at bats on a non-playoff team in September? This is the time for tryouts for next season. Give the young hitters a chance to face major league hitting so maybe they can help the team next year. Have them - like Jenkins is now - take their lumps now so maybe they don't have to next year. 

 

Oh, and Raya should absolutely be up too. Since August 1st he's got an ERA of 2.76 with strong peripherals. He didn't get much of a chance last time up and they can easily DFA Rogers.

[DJL44]

2 minutes ago, MeleMouth said:

Wow. You really think these guys have never thought that winning was the goal of playing sports? Or that playing young players for development instead of veterans for wins might warp their behavior for the rest of their careers? Sorry for the snark, but like for like.

If they want to have any chance of bringing Minter back as a free agent they should let him play. If they want Taj Bradley to sign an extension, they should probably try to win the games he pitches by using their best players.

[Vanimal46]

4 hours ago, thelanges5 said:

Gleeman:

This is the third straight season the Twins have collapsed in the second half.

During that three-year span, they are a combined 55-89 (.382) in August and September, which is equivalent to a 100-loss pace for a full season.

Gonna be honest I’ve only watched a majority of 1 game over the last week or more. It’s getting really old watching the same nose dive year after year. 

[Danchat]

1 minute ago, DJL44 said:

If they want to have any chance of bringing Minter back as a free agent they should let him play. If they want Taj Bradley to sign an extension, they should probably try to win the games he pitches by using their best players.

Give me a break, Bradley is going to refuse an extension because we played some prospects in September? Offer him the right amount of money and he will accept it. This isn't pre-Moneyball, Bradley's camp knows teams aren't going to pay him less because the team lost more of his games in September. We have stats to track how much the defense affects the pitcher, if anything he should be upset that we've fielded a below average defense for the entire season. That'll affect his stats far more than Gabriel Gonzalez being a degree worse than Josh Bell in the lineup.

[DJL44]

7 minutes ago, Danchat said:

Oh, and Raya should absolutely be up too. Since August 1st he's got an ERA of 2.76 with strong peripherals. He didn't get much of a chance last time up and they can easily DFA Rogers.

I have no issue if they want to change out underperforming players like Larnach or Rogers with AAA players like Ramirez, Raya or Orze. I think it is dumb to sit your best players to play your worst ones just because your worst players are younger.

[TheLeviathan]

As this thread proves, we can't even do the "being bad" part correctly.

[MeleMouth]

16 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

If they want to have any chance of bringing Minter back as a free agent they should let him play. If they want Taj Bradley to sign an extension, they should probably try to win the games he pitches by using their best players.

Why would they want Minter as a free agent? They're already paying Hoffman $7+ million next year. With all the other positions that need upgrades, it's hard to believe the Twins would want to pay a second reliever around or more than $10 million. 

Further, if they do want Minter, they just have to offer him more money than anyone else. He's not going to take a deal from a team that offers him less than the Twins just because the Twins used him less at the end of the season. 

Same with Bradley: if before or during next season they offer him a good deal for the next four or five years, he's not going to turn it down because he didn't pick up a win at the end of 2026 due to choice of relievers.

They all know it's a business. If their feelings got hurt as easily as you suggest, several other things would have derailed their careers long before any of us ever heard of them. 

[knothole61]

8 hours ago, DJL44 said:

Their margin for error is gone. They need to go 14-2 to make the playoffs. That is a level of performance they have rarely matched throughout their entire franchise history. 

90% of the season is complete. They should be eliminated by the end of the next homestand. 76 wins is their mean end result with a 2 win standard deviation.

Are you ready for some football?

[knothole61]

3 hours ago, MeleMouth said:

Right now the Twins are on track for the 10th or 11th draft pick and actually don't have much in the minors that could contribute at the beginning of next year, except Raya in the bullpen, ERod if they let him and clear room in the outfield, and Rojas if they clear room in the rotation. Both ERod and Rojas would be swaps who are unlikely to be much better than the current player in the spot.

That's about the worst outcome possible when a team is trying to compete: finishing way out of the playoffs, but too high for a premium draft pick; and using up most of your prospects while not gaining additional assets for the future.

Of course, improvement from Culpepper and Jenkins should be expected in 2027, and perhaps also from Bradley and Abel. But they are also going to lose their catcher, perhaps the most valuable player in 2026, without an equal replacement, and who knows about their centerfielder, who was an MVP candidate in the first half, but has been delaying major surgery for two months since then in the hope that he could hobble around for five innings in the playoffs.

Note: all three teams that traded major league players to the Twins at the deadline in exchange for prospects have won more games since the trades than the Twins have. That isn't a slam on the players, but is a bad mark against management, which misread the situation and then executed their plans poorly.

Also, in case anyone is wondering: Ryan Sprock, the catching prospect who was traded for the not awful but nearly needless Nance, who has had only had one clean full inning since joining the Twins, hit .307/.410 OBP/.553 SLG in A+ for Toronto, for a .963 OPS and 150 wRC+.

"...not awful but nearly needless Nance." Love it!

[HarmonK03]

8 hours ago, DJL44 said:

If they want to have any chance of bringing Minter back as a free agent they should let him play. If they want Taj Bradley to sign an extension, they should probably try to win the games he pitches by using their best players.

Bradley is a middle of the order pitcher, there should be no rush to sign him to an extension until he proves he can throw strikes more consistently and not have meltdowns when he is needed.

[Coach]

Playing for draft lottery position now.  Cross your fingers.

[DJL44]

5 hours ago, knothole61 said:

Are you ready for some football?

I don’t pay much attention to football.

[DJL44]

8 hours ago, MeleMouth said:

Why would they want Minter as a free agent? They're already paying Hoffman $7+ million next year.

They might want more than one decent relief pitcher in next seasons bullpen.

Players want three things - wins, playing time and money. The order depends on the individual.

[MeleMouth]

6 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

They might want more than one decent relief pitcher in next seasons bullpen.

Players want three things - wins, playing time and money. The order depends on the individual.

Between Hoffman, Gomez, Morris, Banda, Raya, Funderburk, and Nance, the Twins think they already have the basis for a "decent" bullpen in 2027.

Paying $10+ million for a reliever usually works out badly. This year, perhaps at least half of the relievers making $8+ million would not have been "decent," and the Twins can't afford such risks.

Minter's a fine pitcher, but he's actually an example on how spending on relievers isn't a great idea: the "value" he has produced this year is calculated as being $8 million less than his $11 million contract. Many relievers at his rate actually produced less "value." 

If the Twins want to be competitive, then they need to prioritize spending elsewhere. However, if they decide to rebuild and if that rebuild will include a bunch of inexperienced starters from whom they expect limited innings, then I might agree with you that they should try to strengthen the bullpen.

[Woof Bronzer]

10 hours ago, DJL44 said:

You want Ben Ross to DH? I suppose they could decide to tank to improve draft position. Maybe they can sit Taj Bradley and bring up Aaron Rozek. Bring up Marco Raya to play instead of Gomez.

The Twins were 10-17 in August and are off to a similar pace in September.  You can't "tank" much worse than they already are.  

[MapleGroveTwinsFan]

10 hours ago, DJL44 said:

Ryan Jeffers is a veteran with no future with the team. Should they sit him for the rest of the season and play Alex Jackson?

If they are going to offer him the QO or a legit contract that competes with other teams (which I wouldn't do) then yes continue to play him, but if that isn't in their plans, then there is no need to play him every day, Run the other two out and start creating a plan for the catcher position for next year.

 

[DJL44]

24 minutes ago, Woof Bronzer said:

The Twins were 10-17 in August and are off to a similar pace in September.  You can't "tank" much worse than they already are.  

0-16 in their final games is within reach.

[DJL44]

11 minutes ago, MapleGroveTwinsFan said:

If they are going to offer him the QO or a legit contract that competes with other teams (which I wouldn't do) then yes continue to play him, but if that isn't in their plans, then there is no need to play him every day, Run the other two out and start creating a plan for the catcher position for next year.

We all know the Twins can’t offer Jeffers a long-term contract that competes with other teams.

[Woof Bronzer]

2 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

0-16 in their final games is within reach.

Agreed, there's nothing left to play for. Seems like a great opportunity to give some young players a shot.  

[CRF]

Dunzo. Bring on football. 

[DJL44]

10 minutes ago, Woof Bronzer said:

Agreed, there's nothing left to play for. Seems like a great opportunity to give some young players a shot.  

There is plenty for each of the individual players to play for, regardless of the Twins overall record.

[Woof Bronzer]

10 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

There is plenty for each of the individual players to play for, regardless of the Twins overall record.

Nothing says "winning organization" like holding back prospects so mediocre vets can pad their stats.  

[DJL44]

7 minutes ago, Woof Bronzer said:

Nothing says "winning organization" like holding back prospects so mediocre vets can pad their stats.  

Right, the “winning organizations” are the ones who lose on purpose to move up 3 spots in the draft.

[Saxophone Joe]

The dead and buried Twins have the chance to do the funniest thing this weekend...

Three straight wins away from being back in this. Stranger things have happened (see: 2007 Colorado Rockies - which is pretty much what we have to replicate). This is why we watch sports. I'm just saying. 

 

[MeleMouth]

9 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Right, the “winning organizations” are the ones who lose on purpose to move up 3 spots in the draft.

All teams play different players at different times for different purposes over a 162 game season. "Getaway" days were a tradition for many years where, at least once a week, someone other than the starters played. That wasn't trying to lose - that was managing your assets for the long term success of the season. Some of us are fine with and even wish for some sacrifices now for long-term sustainable success. If you consider making any kind of sacrifice to be "tanking," then that's fine, but treating every game or series as must-win has produced a series of disappointing seasons for the Twins.

[RpR]

1 hour ago, Woof Bronzer said:

Nothing says "winning organization" like holding back prospects so mediocre vets can pad their stats.  

This is not T-ball , it is a professional sport, where players are very well paid, so every one does not get to play.

[Woof Bronzer]

2 hours ago, DJL44 said:

Right, the “winning organizations” are the ones who lose on purpose to move up 3 spots in the draft.

Which strawman is arguing that the Twins should lose on purpose to move up 3 spots in the draft?  I'm saying the Twins should think to the future, because there's nothing left to play for in 2026.  Most teams do this in September each and every year.  The league even encourages this by expanding rosters on Sept 1.  Maybe you weren't aware of this concept?