2025 Vikings Season

[gunnarthor]

17 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

This is a strawman.  At no point did I say Spielman's name much less fawn over the return.  In fact, I've primarily focused on the owners with this complaint.  (If you were reading my actual arguments and not the ones you apparently want me to make, this might be known to you)

Tanking is not purposely trying to eek out 7 wins when what you really are is a 4 win team.  The year Spielman kept Kendricks and a bunch of other old dudes being the quintessential version of this stupidity.  KAM doing it his first year.  It's purposely placing yourself in purgatory.

Ah....spelling, the last resort.  The better questions are these - if these were great picks, could you please relay to me the value these two players are producing for the 2025 Vikings under their rookie contracts?  Or, if not that, surely you can point to some stirling bit of compensation they got for these draft gems when they sent them walking?

Your analysis was ridiculous because it propped up picks as "hits" that are quite obviously NOT HITS.  Period.  It was a poorly argued thesis with a set of definitions (made entirely subjectively by you) that can only be called ridiculous.  Flat earther pointing at the horizon kind of ridiculous.  

So....no.  I don't know who is the blame that he has so thoroughly failed the drafting process.  But I know who is in charge of it and I'm not the one finding excuses for that.

Thesis? Wow. Yeah, you didn't say Speilman's name but you bitched about the Vikings history. He and KAM have been our only two GMs for 20 years. So not saying his name doesn't really matter because you're referencing his work.

Again, you claim KAM can't draft for ... reasons. Those reasons keep falling apart under inspection. At least you're finally admitting you don't know if it's a drafting problem or a coaching one, i think? Slow progress, I suppose.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

6 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

I'll lay it out in terms of Vikings: do you think the right thing to do in the 2020 offseason was to take a 7 win team and double down on it to win 8 games?

I really don’t know. The two of you know this stuff far better than I do.

I do know we need a QB1 for next season. Unless JJ McCarthy runs the table somehow. (I might also text Scarlett Johansson and see if she wants to hang out tonight) 

[TheLeviathan]

3 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

Thesis? Wow. Yeah, you didn't say Speilman's name but you bitched about the Vikings history. He and KAM have been our only two GMs for 20 years. So not saying his name doesn't really matter because you're referencing his work.

Again, you claim KAM can't draft for ... reasons. Those reasons keep falling apart under inspection. At least you're finally admitting you don't know if it's a drafting problem or a coaching one, i think? Slow progress, I suppose.

Here, allow me to requote what I already typed. (Verbatim, straight from my original point.)  Please try not to strawman this:

Our owners need to allow an actual rebuild to happen.  Gut the roster, be ok with being terrible, hit a true reset.  

I never said Spielman because Spielman is NOT RELEVANT TO MY COMPLAINT.  I'm not referencing his work, I'm talking about the demands of ownership and the refusal to allow the team to be bad and reset when necessary.  Your constant, tired goalpost-moving has lead you to completely lose any thread of what was being discussed.  Maybe, rather than constantly having to twist every counter argument so you can hold your ground you could, I don't know, consider that you're standing on no solid ground?  If you can't make a fair argument, maybe you have a terribly ill-thought position.

And...reasons?  Jesus, my point was crystal clear: the 2025 Vikings roster/season is getting virtually no production from drafted players.  There should be four draft classes for that roster to lean on from the current GM.  Instead, I'll allow you to have Judd Zulgad read a piece from Mark Craig laying out the details. (Merely skip to the 3 minute mark.  Then, by all means please send all future, ridiculous complaints to Mark Craig.  Cuz I guess he also only has "reasons".  FFS)

[TheLeviathan]

8 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

I really don’t know. The two of you know this stuff far better than I do.

I do know we need a QB1 for next season. Unless JJ McCarthy runs the table somehow. (I might also text Scarlett Johansson and see if she wants to hang out tonight) 

The answer is...no.  No that was a terrible decision.

[Aggies7]

Not wanting to jump in the fray here, I think it’s a little unreasonable to think someone like KOC is not going to try and be competitive to save his job next year. He went from COY to a warm seat in 12 games. Now he may land on his feet somewhere outside of MN but some of these guys go into self preservation mode when their job is on the line. They’re not interested in the 3-4 year plan when they may be out the door in one. I expect KOC and team to bring in a competent QB next year, even if it’s only to go .500

[gunnarthor]

1 hour ago, TheLeviathan said:

Here, allow me to requote what I already typed. (Verbatim, straight from my original point.)  Please try not to strawman this:

Our owners need to allow an actual rebuild to happen.  Gut the roster, be ok with being terrible, hit a true reset.  

I never said Spielman because Spielman is NOT RELEVANT TO MY COMPLAINT.  I'm not referencing his work, I'm talking about the demands of ownership and the refusal to allow the team to be bad and reset when necessary.  Your constant, tired goalpost-moving has lead you to completely lose any thread of what was being discussed.  Maybe, rather than constantly having to twist every counter argument so you can hold your ground you could, I don't know, consider that you're standing on no solid ground?  If you can't make a fair argument, maybe you have a terribly ill-thought position.

And...reasons?  Jesus, my point was crystal clear: the 2025 Vikings roster/season is getting virtually no production from drafted players.  There should be four draft classes for that roster to lean on from the current GM.  Instead, I'll allow you to have Judd Zulgad read a piece from Mark Craig laying out the details. (Merely skip to the 3 minute mark.  Then, by all means please send all future, ridiculous complaints to Mark Craig.  Cuz I guess he also only has "reasons".  FFS)

Checking in on the latest moving of goalposts. This craptastic thread started when you said 

1) our drafting under KAM was putrid.
2) we lack an identity
3) owners need to allow a complete tear down and referenced "New England.  The Commanders last year.  The Colts.  The Broncos.  The Bears.  The Seahawks."

On #1, my first point was asking if the drafting process was wrong or if the coaching/developing was failing since that seems pretty important distinction. After ignoring that for several posts, you finally seem to be in the camp of it doesn't matter. Which is a problem, depending on what should be done about it. Since we're both just idiots on the internet with no power, that's fine but does show a bit of a reluctance to think outside the box you want to be in. I also pointed out - again, several times - studies that have shown anticipated results of drafts based on draft round and player position which shows the Viking drafts have not been atypical under KAM. This is usually where you start active insults and straw men. Also, re-reading this, I missed it but I have never praised his drafts, I have defended them, saying they are typical and to be expected. I have praised KAM, as a GM, because his results - .600+ winning percentage is remarkable for a team without a franchise QB (if you don't think of Cousins and Darnold as franchise QBs, which many here don't.). You knew this but you have to attack and have to also ignore the success he's had.

On #2, this is just stupid. The Vikings very clearly have an identity under KOC and Flores, it's an aggressive attacking downfield passing game and a chaotic blitzing defense. Most of the announcers talk about it week-to-week. Your idea that we lost in the playoffs because we lacked an identity was mocked because we lost for real reasons, not made up ones.

On #3, we fought over the viability of tear-downs/rebuilds/tanking with you essentially suggesting every team with a QB was a successful tear-down/tank. Whatever, your own definitions changed from post-to-post to make new teams the correct model. I pointed out that these teams generally sucked and sucked until they got a good QB, with many of them still sucking after they got their good QB. But, whatever. We both agree, at a minimum, that a full tear-down like you're suggesting won't happen b/c the Wilfs won't allow it. 

Lastly, you've added a new argument that doesn't really fit into your first post but I guess is just to add more to the "KAM can't draft" argument - that this year's team isn't getting production from drafted players. Again, this is a bit subjective like most of your posts, but also it would require some understanding of what would be typical. The average career is 3 years but that's propped up by long careers for a few players, rather than the norm. Most drafted players don't play two years. The Vikings have traded a bunch of draft picks. So that also suggests they wouldn't have as much production because they have less picks. The picks they have had have generally been low round picks (only 4 picks in the top 100 in the last 3 drafts, for instance). They've also generally been good, which makes it harder for a rookie - especially late round ones to break in. This also means the Vikings have found a different way to be competitive and that pesky .600 winning percentage rears it's ugly head again. Probably things like trading picks and UDFA have helped. And general coaching competence, but I go off tangent.

But it also begs the question - so what? The Vikings suck this year because of QB production not because Vederian Lowe isn't backing up O'Neil (oh, he's another offensive lineman who left us and seemed to become better. Asking why things happen might be helpful to see we need a new offensive line coach rather than blaming KAM). If they had Darnold they'd likely be 8-4 and no one would care that we traded a 6th round pick to get our leading rusher.

Lastly, general apologies to other posters. This thread blew up badly and I am sorry to the extent it took over the board and prevented better things from happening.

[TheLeviathan]

20 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

I also pointed out - again, several times - studies that have shown anticipated results of drafts based on draft round and player position 

And by your own arbitrary definition of a "hit".  Again: see Mark Craig.  I'm done with this.  The earth is round.  I'm sorry you can't accept that.

Quote

Whatever, your own definitions changed from post-to-post to make new teams the correct model.

My point never changed.  Unfortunately, you kept forcing me to restate it by strawmanning my arguments.  One need only read each of my points to see my thesis was consistent: the Vikings have never allowed themselves to be bad.  Even when it was the right decision.  I put the blame for this on ownership.  (I even, if you go back and look, used to give KAM a pass for 2022's disaster draft in part due to this) It's a kind of meddling that I think is deeply problematic for the franchise.  Other teams have allowed themselves to be bad.  When teams do that, and put their decisions in the hands of good people, they can go from loser to winner quickly.  The Vikings, on the other hand, merely exist in a purgatory of never being a true contender.  Never has that point changed.  Not once.  Though you made a concerted effort to frame it that way because you cannot make an argument that is actually againt it.

Quote

Lastly, you've added a new argument that doesn't really fit into your first post but I guess is just to add more to the "KAM can't draft" argument -

From a day and a half ago:  We have gotten frighteningly little production on the 2025 Vikings from draft assets.  

No.  Not a new argument.  The argument all along.  Perhaps it might be time for you to actually take on my points for what they are, as stated.  I know the strawmen you keep making them is an easier path for you, but it is fallacious and bad form.  Again, you're welcome to take up this issue with noted idiots like Mark Craig who clearly also only have "Reasons" for this.  Or Zulgad.  Or Nystrom.  Or Arief Hassan.  Or Mel Kiper.  Articles in SI.  The folks at Purple Insider.  Skor North.  Everyone at KFAN not named Paul Allen.  I mean, that's just me giving a short list and not being hyperbolic.  Go ahead and pick your "KAM is a solid drafter" argument with them.  No one here agrees and no one will agree.  Nor should they.

[The Great Hambino]

18 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

I honestly didn't think he'd get signed anywhere. 

Tomlin lives seven years in the past, so this checks out

[Cap'n Piranha]

On 12/1/2025 at 3:36 PM, gunnarthor said:

Again, you're just not right. KAM doesn't do the drafting, he doesn't have the scouting background. He listens to his coaches. This isn't Zimmer fighting with Speilman, which I think is a good thing. We know that KAM signed Rodgers and AVG specifically because Flores wanted them, Flores wanted Turner so KAM made a call to get him. We know that he traded for Theilan because KOC wanted him. We know he drafted Felton because McCardell wanted him, etc. He doesn't make the draft decisions in a vacuum. He listens to what his coaches want. As to the results, you've chosen to ignore the reality of draft success rates, called Turner a bust, and are now complaining that the 2025 draft isn't doing enough. Again, not sure what you expected, you don't want to live in reality. Jackson has started every game he's been healthy for. TID is playing about 30% of the defensive snaps, which seems good for a raw 5th rounder. As for Felton, his production seems more or less in line with what the Vikings envisioned - " ‘Hey, man, you got me thinking now. If I get a chance, I’m going to fight to get you.’ He can play special teams and do a lot of things to help us as a team, first, and then as a receiver. I think he’s going to be a good Viking for a long time.”" They knew he'd be able to do stuff on ST and being a receiver would come along. Sounds like the coaches had a good understanding. You might disagree with it but that seems logical.

You also didn't answer the basic question - how do you know the drafting is the problem and not the development? 

As to identity, the issue is your perception. A team doesn't accidentally win at a .600+ clip for four years without being good. You think they're soft, whatever. A month ago Lions fans were bitching that the Vikings punched them in the mouth. 

Lastly, the "tear downs" you are referencing weren't planned in some great degree. It was "we're bad until we draft a QBOTF." The Bengals didn't decide to trade players for picks, they actually traded back to help the Bills get Allen. And the Bills didn't tank to get Allen. They just wanted him, moved up and got him. Smart decision but again no tear down. (I'd also be quite happy if the Vikings targeted a QB and traded up to get him, which, of course, they did).

KAM does the drafting.  I don't know how this is debatable.  But just for fun, let's run some scenarios.

Let's say KAM is just acquiring the players his coaches want.  That means he's a high-level functionary serving no real purpose, and could easily be let go with no impact to the team's talent acquisition capabilities.  So if that's true, then definitely fire KAM, and bring in a GM who can actually have an opinion on football.

Let's say KAM is just trusting whatever information is coming from his player evaluation department.  Since outside of the 2024 FA class, player acquisition has been terrible, that means KAM either doesn't realize he's getting bad information, or simply doesn't care.  So if that's true, then definitely fire KAM for either being bad at, or not caring about, his job.

Let's say KAM is drafting well, and the coaching staff is just incapable of developing the players KAM gets them.  So if that's true, then everyone on the coaching staff, including KOC should be fired for the complete inability to nurture young, drafted players available to help the team.

So you tell me which of the options you think is accurate--KAM is a do-nothing adding no value to the FO, KAM is incompetent at managing a FO, KAM is apathetic at managing a FO, or the entire coaching staff should be fired.

[Cap'n Piranha]

18 hours ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Well, yes and no. I just think that most NFL teams are trying to win most of the time.

Sure, there are a few high profile cases, what Miami did to Flores, Indy’s Suck for Luck season, but I really think those are few and far between. I think it’s more of a fan thing. You guys seem to think tanking is some strategy all GM’s have in their back pocket, like “Break Glass in case of emergency.” It’s not. We are also not late enough in the season to see that jostling for higher draft position when teams start to shelve their better players and actually go for competitive losses, which is still somewhat rare I would argue. Maybe still a couple weeks away from that and the NFL mitigates that by scheduling rivalry games late in the year. 

Good to see teams like Chicago and Denver making a run but I dont think they were tanking, they were just mediocre/bad for a while. Given the cyclical nature of the NFL, probably a few of these surprise teams will fall back under .500 again next year. 

I think there's a misunderstanding of what tanking actually is.  Tanking is not starting 22 UDFAs for the whole year.  Tanking is not releasing productive players under long-term contracts for cap savings.  Tanking is not deliberately calling run plays against loaded boxes.

Tanking is understanding that a team is more than 1 player acquisition cycle away from being truly competitive (any by competitive, I mean competing for top playoff seeds, not hoping for help in week 18 to snag the 7 seed).  To achieve that, tanking teams choose not to sign players in FA, because they want to find young, cheap players.  Tanking teams trade veterans at the height of their value, particularly if they are about to become more expensive, or pass their prime age.  Tanking teams target value in the draft, and are willing to pass on high floor prospects for high ceiling ones instead.

The Vikings have done basically none of this for years, which is why the team hasn't made a Superbowl in almost 50 years, and has played in only 4 conference championship games in almost 40 years.  The Vikings could do this, and they could get the whole organization on board, if the Wilfs were honest about what's going to happen.  Tell KAM and KOC that their jobs are safe for 2025 and 2026, as long as specific milestones are being hit (such as acquisition of a long-term high level starting QB for example).

[Vanimal46]

A really damning stat about the Wilfs...

21 years owning the team - 8 playoff berths - 3 playoff wins

Red McCombs' tenure - 7 years owning the team - 4 playoff berths - 4 playoff wins

[TheLeviathan]

1 minute ago, Vanimal46 said:

A really damning stat about the Wilfs...

21 years owning the team - 8 playoff berths - 3 playoff wins

Red McCombs' tenure - 7 years owning the team - 4 playoff berths - 4 playoff wins

The most important thing to the Wilfs is that only twice in those 21 years did they have 5 or less wins.  

They love purgatory.  It's why we kept bringing back vets, refusing to deal Danielle Hunter or other guys at trade deadlines, and insisting on a competitive rebuild.

As @Cap'n Piranhasaid -tanking isn't going Miami Marlins on your football roster.  It's just not pretending 7-9 wins is a "good" thing when your roster is old and makes a ton of money.  That's the time to dump and move on.

[gunnarthor]

Quote

Let's say KAM is just acquiring the players his coaches want.  That means he's a high-level functionary serving no real purpose, and could easily be let go with no impact to the team's talent acquisition capabilities.  So if that's true, then definitely fire KAM, and bring in a GM who can actually have an opinion on football.

That presumes a GM's only job is to run the draft. The GM is literally leading a billion dollar business. His role includes managing payroll, profit, free agency, hiring/firing coaches, etc. The idea that a smart GM would delegate and listen to the people makes sense to me. In one of the linked articles about Dallas Turner, KAM said "we trust our board, and our evaluation process is pretty good." He doesn't do the scouting, he's not a scout. The Vikings have about 50 people involved in the scouting process. That seems like what you want. Zimmer pouted and walked out when Speilman drafted Hall is not a good thing. You want you coaches explaining their schemes and the types of players that fit it to the scouting people and you want to be able to trust those folks to put together a competent big board. That isn't something a GM should do. That's why I tend to think the GM should be graded on his overall results - 38-25 - rather than small parts of his job. Others disagree. And, to Levi's credit, he has pointed out that KAM was put in a tough position where he had to create a "competitive rebuild" where others might have wanted to tear things down more after Zimmer's last two seasons. 

Also, to your point, no, I think if they fired KAM, not a lot would change in the drafting process in the short term b/c the new guy would have to change staff. It takes a while to do things like that. KAM made significant changes to the drafting room after the 2023 draft. 

Quote

Let's say KAM is just trusting whatever information is coming from his player evaluation department.  Since outside of the 2024 FA class, player acquisition has been terrible, that means KAM either doesn't realize he's getting bad information, or simply doesn't care.  So if that's true, then definitely fire KAM for either being bad at, or not caring about, his job.

Again, he made significant changes to the drafting room after the 2023 draft so that might fix your problem there. 

Quote

Let's say KAM is drafting well, and the coaching staff is just incapable of developing the players KAM gets them.  So if that's true, then everyone on the coaching staff, including KOC should be fired for the complete inability to nurture young, drafted players available to help the team.

I don't think that scenario works like you think it should. It shouldn't be an all-or-nothing evaluation. It's been pointed out in many threads by many people that Ingram and Bradbury look better in Houston and NE. It's also been pointed out that Kelly and Fries look worse here than they did in Indy. (And we have a bit of a longer history of other IOL not working out, including Elflin, Cleveland and Davis who were pre-KAM but same o-line coach). But Turner and TID seem to be good fits in Flores' defense. So it could be - and I think this - that certain coaches/development groups aren't as good as others. I do want a new offensive line coach, for instance, but I don't think KOC should be held accountable for Ingram being better after he left. 

[Vanimal46]

11 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

The most important thing to the Wilfs is that only twice in those 21 years did they have 5 or less wins.  

They love purgatory.  It's why we kept bringing back vets, refusing to deal Danielle Hunter or other guys at trade deadlines, and insisting on a competitive rebuild.

As @Cap'n Piranhasaid -tanking isn't going Miami Marlins on your football roster.  It's just not pretending 7-9 wins is a "good" thing when your roster is old and makes a ton of money.  That's the time to dump and move on.

Yeah, when you strive for mediocrity that's what you get... It also doesn't help that they have been dang close to absentee owners since the start. 

My opinion about the Wilfs have been mostly favorable over the years, but damn when I heard that stat I was shocked at how little playoff success we've had in 21 years. I thought cheap ass McCombs was bad and we made it to 2 NFC Championship games under his tenure. 

[TheLeviathan]

1 minute ago, Vanimal46 said:

Yeah, when you strive for mediocrity that's what you get... It also doesn't help that they have been dang close to absentee owners since the start. 

My opinion about the Wilfs have been mostly favorable over the years, but damn when I heard that stat I was shocked at how little playoff success we've had in 21 years. I thought cheap ass McCombs was bad and we made it to 2 NFC Championship games under his tenure. 

I think they are good owners, but they're misguided about the best way to break through this wall of mediocrity.  The fans will show up even when they stink.

We want a championship.  Swing for that - we'll forgive the terrible seasons if we are.

[The Great Hambino]

32 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

A really damning stat about the Wilfs...

21 years owning the team - 8 playoff berths - 3 playoff wins

Red McCombs' tenure - 7 years owning the team - 4 playoff berths - 4 playoff wins

McCombs also bought the team right as they were about to have their best season ever* and sold the team after they had fallen into relative disarray.  The Wilfs had to spend some time undoing the mess left by Red.  Also, if Red had owned the team much longer there's a decent chance they're the San Antonio Vikings now.  I think that ought to be considered in the calculus.

But that's a good point that the Wilfs' hit rate on the playoffs given their mandate to compete for that every year is a little more underwhelming than I realized

 

* NFC Championship not included

[gunnarthor]

25 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

I think they are good owners, but they're misguided about the best way to break through this wall of mediocrity.  The fans will show up even when they stink.

We want a championship.  Swing for that - we'll forgive the terrible seasons if we are.

I like that they are willing to spend money. My guess is they don't care about championships as much as revenue. Fans show up for winning teams.

[Cap'n Piranha]

38 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

That presumes a GM's only job is to run the draft. The GM is literally leading a billion dollar business. His role includes managing payroll, profit, free agency, hiring/firing coaches, etc. The idea that a smart GM would delegate and listen to the people makes sense to me. In one of the linked articles about Dallas Turner, KAM said "we trust our board, and our evaluation process is pretty good." He doesn't do the scouting, he's not a scout. The Vikings have about 50 people involved in the scouting process. That seems like what you want. Zimmer pouted and walked out when Speilman drafted Hall is not a good thing. You want you coaches explaining their schemes and the types of players that fit it to the scouting people and you want to be able to trust those folks to put together a competent big board. That isn't something a GM should do. That's why I tend to think the GM should be graded on his overall results - 38-25 - rather than small parts of his job. Others disagree. And, to Levi's credit, he has pointed out that KAM was put in a tough position where he had to create a "competitive rebuild" where others might have wanted to tear things down more after Zimmer's last two seasons. 

Also, to your point, no, I think if they fired KAM, not a lot would change in the drafting process in the short term b/c the new guy would have to change staff. It takes a while to do things like that. KAM made significant changes to the drafting room after the 2023 draft. 

Again, he made significant changes to the drafting room after the 2023 draft so that might fix your problem there. 

I don't think that scenario works like you think it should. It shouldn't be an all-or-nothing evaluation. It's been pointed out in many threads by many people that Ingram and Bradbury look better in Houston and NE. It's also been pointed out that Kelly and Fries look worse here than they did in Indy. (And we have a bit of a longer history of other IOL not working out, including Elflin, Cleveland and Davis who were pre-KAM but same o-line coach). But Turner and TID seem to be good fits in Flores' defense. So it could be - and I think this - that certain coaches/development groups aren't as good as others. I do want a new offensive line coach, for instance, but I don't think KOC should be held accountable for Ingram being better after he left. 

Drafting is the most important thing a GM does.  Full stop.  If he can't do that well, it doesn't matter how good he is at everything else.  Also, the NFL made $23B in 2024, so across 32 franchises (to say nothing of the share the league takes before distribution), that's not close to a Billion.  So no, he's not managing "literally" a billion dollar business.

No one has said KAM needs to be breaking down college film at 4AM to identify which linebacker to take in the 7th round.  But he is responsible for all of it, and if he doesn't know enough to challenge evals, that's a problem.  If he thinks the evals have been good, then clearly he's as delusional as you.

You'll no doubt call out here that you mentioned KAM made changes to the draft org after 2023; I find that interesting since, according to you, KAM's drafts have been good.  You've specifically mentioned Ingram and Blackmon as hits, both of whom were in those drafts.  So if those are hits, why did KAM fire a bunch of people who identified them?  Do you see how your logic is full of holes?

The same principle I applied with KAM applies with KOC.  If at this point he doesn't realize that his staff is not good at developing the talent, then he's incompetent.  Either that or he does realize it, and doesn't care.  There is no scenario where the current disastrous state of the team doesn't full on at least one of KAM or KOC, so which would you like it to be?

KAM's 38-25 record is misleading, due in large part to the fact that 2022 was done essentially completely with Spielman's players.  Take out that 13-4 (which also should have been more like 8-9 anyways, since the team was outscored, and went 11-0 in 1 score games), and he's either 25-21, with a good shot at being 25-26 at year end, or 33-30 (and possibly 33-35 at year end).  Again, do you want to blame KAM or KOC for this mess, because it has to be one.

[Cap'n Piranha]

14 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

I like that they are willing to spend money. My guess is they don't care about championships as much as revenue. Fans show up for winning teams.

This is a joke right?  Every team in the NFL spends money, mostly because due to the CBA it's essentially impossible to lose money on a football team.  For example, last year, each team in the NFL got $432.6M in national money.  That's before they sold a single PSL, ticket, jersey as sponsorship or anything else.  The Vikings could probably refuse to let a single fan in for their home games, and still at worst, break even.  No NFL owner is desperately trying to push the team to 10-7 because they're worried the fans won't show up--if you need proof, just look at the average attendance numbers, and you'll see the Jets, Falcons, and Panthers are all top 10 in average fans per game.

In the NFL, fans show up.  No matter what.

[TheLeviathan]

29 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

I like that they are willing to spend money. My guess is they don't care about championships as much as revenue. Fans show up for winning teams.

Yes,they spend money and they aren't afraid to be aggressive. But they care TOO much about revenue.  I want my owners to be aggressive and title chasers.  Not aggressive and bottom line chasers.

[Vanimal46]

21 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

Not wanting to jump in the fray here, I think it’s a little unreasonable to think someone like KOC is not going to try and be competitive to save his job next year. He went from COY to a warm seat in 12 games. Now he may land on his feet somewhere outside of MN but some of these guys go into self preservation mode when their job is on the line. They’re not interested in the 3-4 year plan when they may be out the door in one. I expect KOC and team to bring in a competent QB next year, even if it’s only to go .500

Just like with QB development, the NFL has sped up the timeline for coaches to figure it out too. Another year like this one and we will absolutely be talking about firing KOC. 

Even the old hack of drafting a QB in the 1st round to buy another year doesn’t work anymore 

[Danchat]

For those interested, here's my updated PFF depth chart:

Almost every player on defense is having their worst PFF season in years, which is probably related to A) the team trailing most games and being on the field for a long time, B) the older guys are encountering age regression, and C) a few players getting misused (Hargrave is not a NT, Metellus is not a traditional safety, Turner isn't rushing the passer enough).

Offensively, JJM is close from going from NEI to Abysmal, and the OL looks good on paper but it's only been healthy enough to play as the intended 5 man group for 2 quarters. The good news is Jackson is having a solid year for a rookie OL as they usually jump in quality in Years 2 or 3, the bad news is that Fries' grades are down at his career low level, and we signed him to a 5 year deal. The OL moves for this offseason will be interesting (a better backup OT feels necessary with Darrisaw's durability problems, Kelly will be cut and a starting center must be found, O'Neill will be very expensive to retain).

[nicksaviking]

Anyone know how to make those AI videos? 

I'd love to see one of John Randle pinning JJ McCarthy down and scrubbing that stupid eye black off of his face.

[gunnarthor]

Greenard done for the season to get shoulder surgery. 

https://www.dailynorseman.com/minnesota-vikings-2025-season/93783/jonathan-greenard-season-ending-shoulder-surgery-minnesota-vikings#comments

I would assume at this point that, unless he significantly restructures his contract, he will be cut pre-June 1.

[Mike Sixel]

6 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

Greenard done for the season to get shoulder surgery. 

https://www.dailynorseman.com/minnesota-vikings-2025-season/93783/jonathan-greenard-season-ending-shoulder-surgery-minnesota-vikings#comments

I would assume at this point that, unless he significantly restructures his contract, he will be cut pre-June 1.

Concur. They need Turner to take his place and save some money. 

[Mike Sixel]

22 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

Anyone know how to make those AI videos? 

I'd love to see one of John Randle pinning JJ McCarthy down and scrubbing that stupid eye black off of his face.

Please don't. That said, McCarthy seems like the kind of guy people (well, some fans) like on their team, but hate on the other team. Just guessing here.....

[Parfigliano]

15 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Please don't. That said, McCarthy seems like the kind of guy people (well, some fans) like on their team, but hate on the other team. Just guessing here.....

If he was a functional QB they would like him more

[Vanimal46]

53 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

I would assume at this point that, unless he significantly restructures his contract, he will be cut pre-June 1.

Wut? Pre June 1 cut per Spotrac:

2026 Dead Cap: $9,900,000

2026 Savings: $12,400,000

We're not gonna cut him for $3.5 million savings on the cap. 

[TheLeviathan]

6 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

Wut? Pre June 1 cut per Spotrac:

2026 Dead Cap: $9,900,000

2026 Savings: $12,400,000

We're not gonna cut him for $3.5 million savings on the cap. 

Also...he's in his prime and really good?  Why on earth is he on the cut list?

[Vanimal46]

3 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

Also...he's in his prime and really good?  Why on earth is he on the cut list?

Honestly he's probably due for an extension/raise more than anything. He's out performed his contract big time. The shoulder injury might keep him at a $22 million cap hit, I have no idea the severity of it since the season is almost over.