The Chorus of "Sell The Team" Chants at Target Field Are a Dose of Reality for Despised Ownership

[old nurse]

52 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

Well, the other poster admitted to not reading the article.  I don't think there is much ambiguity here.

Also...according to Reusse it was Jim Pohlad, not Joe, who was in conversations with Crane. (Confirming the report)

So a few things: 1) The  Pohlads were absolutely directly involved and 2) Either they don't talk to each other (incompetence) or Joe is lying (Possible, his public facing communication doesn't have a sterling track record).

The 2 people were you and I. Joe said he knew they were trading players. I wonder how he knew that? Any guesses? When it came to how many in the end, he was not. They are not micromanaging the team  He was involved in the Correa trade when it came down to negotiating money. That has been pretty much known that the Pohlads become involved when there are large sums of money involved. That is likely true for any team. When the team signed Donaldson and Correa it was brought up that the Pohlads had to sign off on it. 

[USAFChief]

20 minutes ago, old nurse said:

A couple of division championships, a couple of wild card appearances and a winning record would say you are not paying attention. Now if your complaint was that they haven’t drafted more than a couple of competent positions players and have to rely on continually rebuilding with a short term position players, you would be correct. That is not your argument 

Take out 2019 (almost completely not Falvey's players) and 2020 (largely the same, and 2020's 60 game season really shouldn't count) and what's Falvey's record?

Even if we give Falvey credit for thoae two seasons,  we're  7 years into his tenure now, and he's presiding over a disaster so bad it required a deadline Armageddon.

They're 377-394 since the start of the 2021 season. 70-92 over the last 162 games.

I'd say rather than not paying attention, you're not even attempting to be honest.

[old nurse]

49 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Take out 2019 (almost completely not Falvey's players) and 2020 (largely the same, and 2020's 60 game season really shouldn't count) and what's Falvey's record?

Even if we give Falvey credit for thoae two seasons,  we're  7 years into his tenure now, and he's presiding over a disaster so bad it required a deadline Armageddon.

I'd say rather than not paying attention, you're not even attempting to be honest.

Those player who couldn’t muster a 60 win season and got the GM fired as a total system failure. Who is attempting to not be honest?

[Doc Lenz]

15 hours ago, D.C Twins said:

(narrator's voice) They are not going to use the revenue to sign free agents and extend players....thanks for playing!

I didn’t know you are Carnac and can see the future.

[TheLeviathan]

3 hours ago, old nurse said:

The 2 people were you and I. Joe said he knew they were trading players. I wonder how he knew that? Any guesses? When it came to how many in the end, he was not. They are not micromanaging the team  He was involved in the Correa trade when it came down to negotiating money. That has been pretty much known that the Pohlads become involved when there are large sums of money involved. That is likely true for any team. When the team signed Donaldson and Correa it was brought up that the Pohlads had to sign off on it. 

The article makes quite clear that this opinion is false.  If it's one you want to hold on to...that's your perogative.

But it's not reality.  We've been hearing the same line from our GMs for 30 years.  I imagine their willingness to take fire from the public is part of what retains their employment even though they aren't accomplishing much on the field.

[TheLeviathan]

4 hours ago, NYCTK said:

I just skimmed the relevant section. So, sounds like it was a relentless Houston owner that sold the deal. Not the Pohlads being cheap penny pinchers. Pohlads seemingly were intrigued by Cranes pitch and asked Falvey to look into it.

"The Pohlad family got back to Derek Falvey, Twins president of baseball operations. They suddenly were curious." 

"We know they forced the Correa move" seems like an entirely inaccurate portrayal of the events as reported. Doesn't sound to me like they forced anything at all. 

The Correa trade was such a defensible baseball driven decision, I and others on this site said a successful trade deadline would rely on getting rid of the contract, despite likely having to pay up to a third of it to move him.

How do you think Houston's owner sold the deal?

Look, I'm on the record that I don't mind we sold on Correa to get out from the contract before it becomes an albatross.....

However, Crane's pitch worked because he preyed on the Pohlad's weaknesses about money and profit.  The Pohlads are why that deal happened 100%.  They basically negotiated it without Falvey for long stretches.  I don't know how much more meddling or forcing you can be than to usurp your GM.

[NYCTK]

32 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

How do you think Houston's owner sold the deal?

Look, I'm on the record that I don't mind we sold on Correa to get out from the contract before it becomes an albatross.....

However, Crane's pitch worked because he preyed on the Pohlad's weaknesses about money and profit.  The Pohlads are why that deal happened 100%.  They basically negotiated it without Falvey for long stretches.  I don't know how much more meddling or forcing you can be than to usurp your GM.

You're reading subtext that may or may not be there. Which is fine, go right ahead. But don't expect others to just buy into your interpretation of events as fact when the facts present don't follow. 

 

[TheLeviathan]

3 hours ago, NYCTK said:

You're reading subtext that may or may not be there. Which is fine, go right ahead. But don't expect others to just buy into your interpretation of events as fact when the facts present don't follow. 

 

I don't know what "subtext" that would be.  Bob Nightengale isn't some nobody.  He reported the owners basically had trade talks where Crane used the Pohlad's sale/budget to get them to give him Correa for nothing.

There's no reading into that.  That's as direct as I've ever heard any owners get when they employ a GM.  You can doubt, but Reusse and NIghtengale?  Seems pretty open and shut to me.

[old nurse]

5 hours ago, TheLeviathan said:

The article makes quite clear that this opinion is false.  If it's one you want to hold on to...that's your perogative.

But it's not reality.  We've been hearing the same line from our GMs for 30 years.  I imagine their willingness to take fire from the public is part of what retains their employment even though they aren't accomplishing much on the field.

Other articles made it quite clear that Falvey approached Correa about being traded because a rebuild wasn’t what Correa signed up for. They then approached Houston as they knew that Crane liked him.  Pohlad’s bit in the negotiations was to negotiate the money. So what is reality?  Whatever the author of the story wants their readers to believe, Before anything could proceed, Correa had to agree with it. Nightenale would be correct that Houston used their leverage to give them nothing for the money. On the other hand, Corrrea’s season with the Twins and the contract ammounts, the Twins came close to getting what he was worth. 

[dxpavelka]

On 8/17/2025 at 6:29 AM, old nurse said:

They would also complain if the team traded the underperforming free agents away. 

for certain

[TheLeviathan]

13 hours ago, old nurse said:

Other articles made it quite clear that Falvey approached Correa about being traded because a rebuild wasn’t what Correa signed up for. They then approached Houston as they knew that Crane liked him.  Pohlad’s bit in the negotiations was to negotiate the money. So what is reality?  Whatever the author of the story wants their readers to believe, Before anything could proceed, Correa had to agree with it. Nightenale would be correct that Houston used their leverage to give them nothing for the money. On the other hand, Corrrea’s season with the Twins and the contract ammounts, the Twins came close to getting what he was worth. 

The reporters aren't trying to spin a narrative.  Their job is to report facts.  The facts we have are that the Pohalds directly negotiated a trade with Jim Crane.  

Put aside whether the move was right or good value, the point I made you're contending was that the Pohlads were directly involved at the trade deadline.  I don't see how that's disputable unless you're willing to call both Bob NIghtengale and Patrick Reusse liars.  

[mluebker]

On 8/16/2025 at 11:14 PM, dxpavelka said:

No more of the Gardy & Terry Ryan's gut instinct stuff.  Build a strong analytics department and listen to them.

My problem with Gardy had little to do with his gut, and more to do with his lack of imagination, his playing favorites and inconsistency handling young players, a lack of ability to inspire, and his infernal preference for pitching to contact regardless of whether there was a strong defense on the field.

His laid-back, by-the-book managing meant he went by conventional wisdom instead of numbers, and he got results that weren’t a heckuva lot different than what Rocco and his iPad seem to get.
 

I can’t remember ever wishing for more reliance on analytics, but I do remember being disappointed that they hired Molitor who, like Ted Williams was an amazing ballplayer but had little idea how to manage or teach.

And then Rocco, who didn’t have much of a record on the field, and whose performance in the dugout has been adequate on his best days and frustrating on the rest. So no, he’s been nothing like what I was clamoring for. 

Terry Ryan was an Andy MacPhail wannabe without the baseball savvy and judgment, and Falvey has been a guy who does what he’s told by owners who care more about making a profit than winning. So no, I wasn’t clamoring for him, either. 

What I’d like to see in a manager would be a reincarnation of Billy Martin. A manager who takes chances, thinks outside the box, and knows baseball well enough to skip both the iPad and the conventional wisdom and makes the calls himself. A guy who’s not afraid to call out the front office and ownership when they make bad decisions. A guy like that can win with less talent than the Twins have been putting on the field, but he’ll also make a lot of enemies and only last a year. But it would be a fun year. 
 

 

[mluebker]

On 8/17/2025 at 9:11 AM, old nurse said:

A couple of division championships, a couple of wild card appearances and a winning record would say you are not paying attention.

I’m paying attention. I’m just not as easily satisfied as you. 

[Vanimal46]

On 8/17/2025 at 6:11 PM, TheLeviathan said:

I don't know what "subtext" that would be.  Bob Nightengale isn't some nobody.  He reported the owners basically had trade talks where Crane used the Pohlad's sale/budget to get them to give him Correa for nothing.

There's no reading into that.  That's as direct as I've ever heard any owners get when they employ a GM.  You can doubt, but Reusse and NIghtengale?  Seems pretty open and shut to me.

Bob has made some bad tweets in his day, including multiple spelling errors. But Boob is plugged in on the big important stuff. Trading Correa was a big deal during this trade deadline. Arguably the biggest known name traded away. If a GM specifically targeted LHP Matt Mikukski for Correa they should be fired immediately. 26 year old with currently a 12 ERA in high A ball. 

[old nurse]

On 8/18/2025 at 9:30 AM, TheLeviathan said:

The reporters aren't trying to spin a narrative.  Their job is to report facts.  The facts we have are that the Pohalds directly negotiated a trade with Jim Crane.  

Put aside whether the move was right or good value, the point I made you're contending was that the Pohlads were directly involved at the trade deadline.  I don't see how that's disputable unless you're willing to call both Bob NIghtengale and Patrick Reusse liars.  

Reusse reported that the Pohlads got the trade finished.  Falvey still was the initiator of that trade. There is a difference been completing a trade and initiating it.  What Reusse said in no way contradicts what I have posted. 

Reusse: “[Astros owner] Jim Crane called and made it happen, apparently.”

Judd: “So he called Jim Pohlad?”

Reusse: “Jim Pohlad, he called Jim Pohlad. He did not call Joe [Pohlad]…he called Jim Pohlad and they negotiated the money.”

Judd: “So, literally the adults above Falvey decided to work this deal out and told young Derek, ‘You’re gonna [sit this one out]’?”

Reusse: “Yes. Jim [Crane] called [Jim Pohlad] up and they wanted [the Twins to pay] half [of Correa’s remaining money] and [Jim Pohlad] got them down to a third, basically.”

Patrick Reusse – “Reusse Unchained” – SKOR North

 

People can call it a salary dump as a negative. Time will tell if Correa is still worth 20-30 million a year.   For the Twins this year it certainly feels like he quit on them 

[old nurse]

8 hours ago, mluebker said:

I’m paying attention. I’m just not as easily satisfied as you. 

I never said I was satisfied. I only stated that your post was an obvious error. Now you come back with an erroneous  twist on my position That is what it is. That is the new American culture . 

[dxpavelka]

8 hours ago, mluebker said:

My problem with Gardy had little to do with his gut, and more to do with his lack of imagination, his playing favorites and inconsistency handling young players, a lack of ability to inspire, and his infernal preference for pitching to contact regardless of whether there was a strong defense on the field.

His laid-back, by-the-book managing meant he went by conventional wisdom instead of numbers, and he got results that weren’t a heckuva lot different than what Rocco and his iPad seem to get.
 

I can’t remember ever wishing for more reliance on analytics, but I do remember being disappointed that they hired Molitor who, like Ted Williams was an amazing ballplayer but had little idea how to manage or teach.

And then Rocco, who didn’t have much of a record on the field, and whose performance in the dugout has been adequate on his best days and frustrating on the rest. So no, he’s been nothing like what I was clamoring for. 

Terry Ryan was an Andy MacPhail wannabe without the baseball savvy and judgment, and Falvey has been a guy who does what he’s told by owners who care more about making a profit than winning. So no, I wasn’t clamoring for him, either. 

What I’d like to see in a manager would be a reincarnation of Billy Martin. A manager who takes chances, thinks outside the box, and knows baseball well enough to skip both the iPad and the conventional wisdom and makes the calls himself. A guy who’s not afraid to call out the front office and ownership when they make bad decisions. A guy like that can win with less talent than the Twins have been putting on the field, but he’ll also make a lot of enemies and only last a year. But it would be a fun year. 
 

 

So you are a fan.  Which means, that at the end of the day, if the team doesn't win the World Series, (and in some places, even if they do) you, as a fan are far more capable of doing their jobs than the manager, the front office, the scouts and the ownership.  I get it.  But it's not just you, it's most fans.  

[TheLeviathan]

1 hour ago, old nurse said:

Reusse reported that the Pohlads got the trade finished.  Falvey still was the initiator of that trade. There is a difference been completing a trade and initiating it.  What Reusse said in no way contradicts what I have posted. 

 

Reusse: “[Astros owner] Jim Crane called and made it happen, apparently.”

Judd: “So he called Jim Pohlad?”

Reusse: “Jim Pohlad, he called Jim Pohlad. He did not call Joe [Pohlad]…he called Jim Pohlad and they negotiated the money.”

Judd: “So, literally the adults above Falvey decided to work this deal out and told young Derek, ‘You’re gonna [sit this one out]’?”

Reusse: “Yes. Jim [Crane] called [Jim Pohlad] up and they wanted [the Twins to pay] half [of Correa’s remaining money] and [Jim Pohlad] got them down to a third, basically.”

Patrick Reusse – “Reusse Unchained” – SKOR North

 

People can call it a salary dump as a negative. Time will tell if Correa is still worth 20-30 million a year.   For the Twins this year it certainly feels like he quit on them 

With all due respect....I don't know how you post that conversation, verbatim, and then conclude something entirely different.

The Pohlads conducted the trade.  Decided it needed to happen and ironed out the details.  Read those last two sentences between Zulgad and Reusse again if it helps.

[mluebker]

59 minutes ago, dxpavelka said:

So you are a fan.  Which means, that at the end of the day, if the team doesn't win the World Series, (and in some places, even if they do) you, as a fan are far more capable of doing their jobs than the manager, the front office, the scouts and the ownership. 

That’s pretty much the definition of every baseball fan. Baseball is an entertainment business, made for fans. Of course we’re all armchair managers. If we weren’t, there wouldn’t be places like Twins Daily.

[mluebker]

1 hour ago, old nurse said:

I never said I was satisfied. I only stated that your post was an obvious error. Now you come back with an erroneous  twist on my position That is what it is. That is the new American culture . 

No, but you suggested I wasn’t paying attention because of “a couple of division championships, a couple of wild card appearances and a winning record.” If you’re not satisfied with that, why hold it up like it’s a notable accomplishment? I’m not twisting anything, I’m responding to what you wrote.

How about this? Would you be happier if I were to say, “Falvey doesn’t know how to assemble a _consistently_ winning team or hire a competent manager”? 

Because fielding teams stocked with a rotating cast of other teams’ cast-offs and reclamation projects that average a few games over .500 and until a couple of years ago hadn’t won a playoff game this century isn’t much for them to hang their hats on. 
 

[The Great Hambino]

2 hours ago, TheLeviathan said:

With all due respect....I don't know how you post that conversation, verbatim, and then conclude something entirely different.

The Pohlads conducted the trade.  Decided it needed to happen and ironed out the details.  Read those last two sentences between Zulgad and Reusse again if it helps.

Here is an article that reports this all starting with Jim Crane playing golf with Joe Mauer, of all people, during the HOF induction weekend in Cooperstown, which was the weekend before the trade deadline and before Falvey had broached Correa on the subject.

There's a few interesting tidbits in all of this

- How was Mauer a part of this at all?  Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but could this mean he's part of one of the limited partner groups?

- Not only did Crane go over Falvey's head - he also went over Joe's head directly to Jim.  Makes sense considering Joe sure seems like he's in over his head.  Feeds into my developing theory that Joe is never actually in charge of the businesses he runs; instead, he's the family human shield they use whenever an asset is floundering (see also: the radio stations he apparently ran into the ground)

- Given what has transpired since then, this passage is wild: 

" But Crane didn’t back off [after the Twins laughed off his initial offer]. He doubled down, framing the deal not as a salary dump, but as a strategic move to make the team more appealing to potential buyers. The Twins, he argued, could better position themselves to sell if they cleared payroll — starting with Correa’s contract."

If this is true, the Twins hastily cleared all this payroll for a sale that disappeared in a matter of weeks.  Yet another example of there being no plan whatsoever

[TheLeviathan]

3 hours ago, The Great Hambino said:

Here is an article that reports this all starting with Jim Crane playing golf with Joe Mauer, of all people, during the HOF induction weekend in Cooperstown, which was the weekend before the trade deadline and before Falvey had broached Correa on the subject.

There's a few interesting tidbits in all of this

- How was Mauer a part of this at all?  Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but could this mean he's part of one of the limited partner groups?

- Not only did Crane go over Falvey's head - he also went over Joe's head directly to Jim.  Makes sense considering Joe sure seems like he's in over his head.  Feeds into my developing theory that Joe is never actually in charge of the businesses he runs; instead, he's the family human shield they use whenever an asset is floundering (see also: the radio stations he apparently ran into the ground)

- Given what has transpired since then, this passage is wild: 

" But Crane didn’t back off [after the Twins laughed off his initial offer]. He doubled down, framing the deal not as a salary dump, but as a strategic move to make the team more appealing to potential buyers. The Twins, he argued, could better position themselves to sell if they cleared payroll — starting with Correa’s contract."

If this is true, the Twins hastily cleared all this payroll for a sale that disappeared in a matter of weeks.  Yet another example of there being no plan whatsoever

100% with you my man.  I had the same thoughts about Mauer being a possible "front man" for a limited partner. 

I said earlier - Crane negotiating with Jim and then Joe publicly saying he "had no idea/ownership wasn't part" or whatever he said.....is either catastrophic incompetence or lies. Neither of which is reassuring.  

I'm genuinely confused how there are people that still don't think this ownership group is THE problem.  The root cause of everything.  They usurped the GM at the deadline.  They botched the sale.  They f'ed up the media deal for decades.  They right-sized the payroll.  They use what appears to be Chat GPT to message to the public.  

Other ownership groups might be surmountable....but this one isn't.  They're that awful.

[old nurse]

6 hours ago, mluebker said:

No, but you suggested I wasn’t paying attention because of “a couple of division championships, a couple of wild card appearances and a winning record.” If you’re not satisfied with that, why hold it up like it’s a notable accomplishment? I’m not twisting anything, I’m responding to what you wrote.

How about this? Would you be happier if I were to say, “Falvey doesn’t know how to assemble a _consistently_ winning team or hire a competent manager”? 

Because fielding teams stocked with a rotating cast of other teams’ cast-offs and reclamation projects that average a few games over .500 and until a couple of years ago hadn’t won a playoff game this century isn’t much for them to hang their hats on. 
 

Consistent winning teams with low payrolls are rare.  They cycle up and down.  The Brewers have been on a good run. Check the 30 years before that. Tampa had a good  run, fell off for a few years, had a run, then fell off. Any more things you don’t really pay attention to?

[mnfireman]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/news/insider-claims-joe-pohlad-never-wanted-to-sell-the-twins/ar-AA1KPjt9?ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=860443d26bd849b881aba03597eb31d4&ei=7

[mluebker]

7 hours ago, old nurse said:

Any more things you don’t really pay attention to?

Whatever else there is on the list, I probably should add you to it.

[dxpavelka]

22 hours ago, mluebker said:

That’s pretty much the definition of every baseball fan. Baseball is an entertainment business, made for fans. Of course we’re all armchair managers. If we weren’t, there wouldn’t be places like Twins Daily.

Sadly few of us are as good at this as we claim to be

 

[old nurse]

5 hours ago, mluebker said:

Whatever else there is on the list, I probably should add you to it.

Feel free to do so

[old nurse]

21 hours ago, TheLeviathan said:

With all due respect....I don't know how you post that conversation, verbatim, and then conclude something entirely different.

The Pohlads conducted the trade.  Decided it needed to happen and ironed out the details.  Read those last two sentences between Zulgad and Reusse again if it helps.

You show no respect. Sorry I do not have footnoted  timeline for you. Yes the Pohlads closed the deal. What part of when it comes to spending over the budget  goes to the owner was too hard for you to understand? The same scenario owner to GM played out in Houston. That is how it works. The groundwork to make the trade was Falvey’s conversations with Houston, which started as nothing serious   When Ryan was running the team he once stated that GM talk together all the time about players. Sorry, that was a long time ago for Ryan’s tenure  so I don’t have which sportswriter for you.  Do you think that the Griffin Jax or Varland trades happened in less than a day?  

[dxpavelka]

I am always amused by the "after the 2023 season was the time to go all in by spending big money" fable.  Was this team poised for more at that point?  Absolutely.  Where would you have spent that money?  Take a look at the team as constructed at that point.  Would you have replaced Correa?  With more of the same?  Not really.  Kepler coming off .816 OPS?  Probably not.  You don't make the playoffs in 2023 without Solano and you have Kirilloff waiting in wings.  Julien coming off .839 OPS and 7th place in the ROY voting?  I suppose you could have replaced Buxton.  But I'd hope you'd be smarter than that.  Gallo in LF is obvious but you have Larnach waiting in the wings.  Royce at 3B?  Are you TRYING to get fired?  Not willing to move forward with Jeffers?  OK.  Your 4th best starter on that team is now a top 10 in MLB guy.  I suppose you COULD have gotten in on the Ohtani sweepstakes.  Got news for ya boys and girls.  He wasn't coming here for a BILLION dollars.  Matt Chapman?  I suppose you could have pulled the plug on Lewis.  I suppose you could have re-signed Gray.  Has he REALLY been better than any of your big three since he left?  If you go by straight WAR SWR has been better since he left.  I'll wait.

[mluebker]

7 hours ago, dxpavelka said:

23 hours ago, mluebker said:

That’s pretty much the definition of every baseball fan. Baseball is an entertainment business, made for fans. Of course we’re all armchair managers. If we weren’t, there wouldn’t be places like Twins Daily.

Sadly few of us are as good at this as we claim to be

Thank heavens that being “good at it” isn’t a requirement, because there’s no way to objectively measure that. But there certainly are those who see things differently and too often imagine their opinions are right, and anyone who disagrees with them is wrong.