Joe Ryan and the Piggybacks: Time to See What the Twins Have in the Stable

[AceWrigley]

I wonder if this type of strategy would allow young pitchers who are pitching well in the minors to move up to the major league club sooner.

There would be less demand to be able to navigate a lineup 3 times or more through, less demand on commanding a whole arsenal of pitches and less demand on being able to provide a mass quantity of innings.

But It sure could make for some strange won-loss records for starters unless MLB reduced the qualifying for a decision innings quantity from 5 down to 4 which maybe should happen anyway.

[jmlease1]

1 hour ago, rv78 said:

If you piggyback them, aren't you really just seeing if they will make an effective long reliever? An accurate test or evaluation of a player to be a starter is to treat them like a starter. If Rocco is going to pull them before the 3rd time thru the order then you really aren't learning if they can be successful at it since they aren't given the chance. Piggys belong in a pig pen. Horses belong in a stable. Make them horses not pigs.

You're presuming that you can make a player be effective in a role just by deciding on the role and having them do it. 

There's a very interesting question to see whether some of the rotation options we have might be effective/more effective if they were pitching 3-4 innings more often than as a starter but less often than they would be as a 1-inning reliever and fill a different type of role. 

Long relievers have existed for a long time in baseball, but in the modern era if a team has one on their roster, they're usually treated as a low leverage pitcher that's only there to throw and absorb innings in a blow out situation of some type. Part of what's intriguing about some of this idea is seeing whether there are players who could fit into this type of role in higher leverage positions as well.

I'm intrigued by the possibilities of piggybacking some of our younger/less experienced starters for the rest of the season both to evaluate where they are against MLB talent but also to see whether some of them might thrive pitching a little more often but a little less. If even one emerges as someone who can fairly reliably give 3 innings twice a week for the future, that could be a very useful role to save the bullpen, carry the team through the middle innings if someone goes "5 and Fly" (or a bit less), etc.

Part of the question this season is how many rotation type guys need MLB innings to get the evaluation and development they need this season. Bradley, Abel, Rojas, Matthews, Festa, SWR, Ohl, and Adams are all contenders for this, but how many of them might be better off just pitching in the rotation at AAA while they work on stuff/get evaluated by Twins staff? I think that's a harder question.

Ohl & Adams fascinate me right now, because they both have had stretches where they looked great/effective and stretches where they looked incapable of pitching at the MLB level. Part of the book on Bradley coming in was he needed to get his change back in order; should he be working on it at AAA or MLB? Rojas has lots of arm talent, but needs refinement and innings, and with so little experience above A-ball might not be well-suited to test-driving a new role in MLB. Matthews & Festa have good upside, but it seems like they need to be tested going deeper in games more than anything.

I will say, the remainder of the season is the time to be creative, because they're unlikely to make some kind of crazy run and get back in contention with the shambolic bullpen we have.

[AceWrigley]

[chpettit19]

3 hours ago, rv78 said:

If you piggyback them, aren't you really just seeing if they will make an effective long reliever? An accurate test or evaluation of a player to be a starter is to treat them like a starter. If Rocco is going to pull them before the 3rd time thru the order then you really aren't learning if they can be successful at it since they aren't given the chance. Piggys belong in a pig pen. Horses belong in a stable. Make them horses not pigs.

This is not how it works. Go check out Garrett Crochet and his career. The short version is he was a 1 inning reliever, got hurt, came back as a 1 inning reliever and was then put straight into the rotation last year and was immediately an ace who was traded for a massive haul and given a huge contract and is about to win the Cy Young. Because how you described pitching development isn't how it actually works.

People around here wanted Griffin Jax put into the rotation this year, and there's a very real possibility Tampa does that next year with him. Jordan Hicks and Reynaldo Lopez recently switched from being 1 inning relievers straight into the rotation with success. The Twins are about to face Seth Lugo tonight, guess how many starts he made from 2019 through 2022 out of the 185 games he pitched in? 7. He threw 228 innings in 185 games. That's barely over 1 inning per appearance. San Diego turned him directly into a starter in 2023 where he had a 3.57 ERA in 146.1 innings (only 1.2 innings shy of his previous 3 years combined) and he then threw over 200 innings for KC last year in a league leading 33 starts that gave him a 2nd place finish in the Cy Young award race. He has a 3.06 ERA this year. He started 38 games his first 7 seasons and has started 80 in his last 2 plus.

Piggys do just fine when they're released from the pen.

[AceWrigley]

4 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Piggys do just fine when they're released from the pen.

Agreed, when they are ready. Maybe the piggy back helps determine if a pitcher is ready for being a long starter.

[USAFChief]

If this is justba way to see more potential starters for the rest of 2026, ok I guess. You might pull it off. Might, but 4 relievers in the pen is tough. 

Full season? The whole idea of "piggyback" starters, or 3--4 inning starters in general, just doesn't work, nor make much sense.

[DocBauer]

While it shouldn't have to be re-stated yet again, this a 2 month proposal in order to get as many young arms in ML game action to springboard them for 2026 and beyond. It's not a permanent alteration.

Where it gets a little complicated is total numbers needed...though they can add a 14th arm in September...and when/if Lopez and Festa come back. But let's say Ryan and Lopez are business as usual. So the other 3 spots would on the 5/4 IP program. Example: SWR and Abel are matched up on a 5/4. Sim starts and Abel comes in after 5 innings. The next turn they flip and Abel goes 5 and Sims goes 4. If the starter struggles, maybe you switch it up mid game and pull him after 4.

It's just a way to get as many looks, as much experience for as many young arms over the next 2 months as possible to prepare for 2026.

Also, they aren't doing this to every arm throughout the system. They have zero issue of a MILB SP going a full 5 innings, or even 6 once in a while.  What they have started this year was taking SOME arms like Adams and Ohl where there are real questions as to whether they are ML SP material. If the answer is no, then they are throwing every 4th day instead of 5, but fewer innings. Throwing more often in time, but less throws. 

Ohl and Adams have, more or less, been on this program all season. Imagine 2026 and beyond where your pen has a traditional top 5 relievers...6 if you're lucky...and your last 2 are someone like Adams and Ohl who can throw 2-3 innings every 3 days. That's 30-60 pitches every 3 days. No sacrificial lamb 8th man who "takes one for the team" and then gets shipped out. And no 8th man that makes you shake in your seat when pressed to pitch in the 10th inning of a tied game. 

Instead, you have a couple guys with solid stuff that they can maintain for a couple innings. Not flame throwing 8th or 9th inning guys. And not quite good enough to go beyond 1, 1 1/2, or maybe 2 times through a lineup. 

 

[jorgenswest]

Let’s fill as many spots with pitchers that might be helpful next year. That is more important than how they are used. Let’s make sure they are seeing major league batters.

If the best way to do that is one of these plans then I am in. If it is a traditional model I am in. It isn’t going to keep Taj Bradley from starting next year if he is coming out of the pen the remainder of this year. It might even be nice to see how he throws when he knows he won’t see the line up more than once. Let’s prioritize arms in the minors that they know will be on the 40 next year over pitchers currently in the pen over the age of 30.

[The Great Hambino]

5 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

If this is justba way to see more potential starters for the rest of 2026, ok I guess. You might pull it off. Might, but 4 relievers in the pen is tough. 

Full season? The whole idea of "piggyback" starters, or 3--4 inning starters in general, just doesn't work, nor make much sense.

I don't think they'd have to worry about only having 4 relievers too often because a) I don't think Ober actually gets reduced into a piggyback role b) Pablo will be back eventually and c) they're already riding the DFA merry-go-round.  They can always cycle through that if the need an extra fresh arm for a couple days

[USAFChief]

4 minutes ago, The Great Hambino said:

I don't think they'd have to worry about only having 4 relievers too often because a) I don't think Ober actually gets reduced into a piggyback role b) Pablo will be back eventually and c) they're already riding the DFA merry-go-round.  They can always cycle through that if the need an extra fresh arm for a couple days

Right, they might be able to pull it off for the rest of 2025.

Might.

None of the 3-4 inning guys will always go 3-4 innings, and you still need a bullpen for when Ryan or Lopez go 5-6. 

Hardly anyone even carries a single long reliever any more.  We're essentially talking 6 to 8 long relievers here. And the proposal above has them going once every 5 days.

 

 

[The Great Hambino]

15 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Right, they might be able to pull it off for the rest of 2025.

Might.

None of the 3-4 inning guys will always go 3-4 innings, and you still need a bullpen for when Ryan or Lopez go 5-6. 

Hardly anyone even carries a single long reliever any more.  We're essentially talking 6 to 8 long relievers here. And the proposal above has them going once every 5 days.

 

 

I wouldn't want them to for a full year.  I think they could get by with a piggyback for a spot in the rotation, but probably not much more than that

[DocBauer]

47 minutes ago, The Great Hambino said:

I don't think they'd have to worry about only having 4 relievers too often because a) I don't think Ober actually gets reduced into a piggyback role b) Pablo will be back eventually and c) they're already riding the DFA merry-go-round.  They can always cycle through that if the need an extra fresh arm for a couple days

Plus they can add a 14th pitcher in September. 

[AceWrigley]

Weird to think that teams used to use 9 and 10-man pitching staffs not that long ago..

[AceWrigley]

In 1877, Jim Devlin was the only pitcher used by the Louisville Grays and he pitched every inning played by them. 61 starts, 61 complete games, 559 innings. Easy peasy.

[Linus]

One of the silver linings to a lost season is being able to do things like this. I would do the same thing with the lineup. No more “guessing” if so and so can make it in the bigs. Our “guessing “ track record leaves something to be desired - let the players show you the answer. In the long run I’m with @Riverbrian  I want to see the best pitchers pitch the most innings however that looks - forget about the labels. If Prellip is a stud for 4 innings then have him pitch 4.  Don’t arbitrarily turn him into a 1 inning guy because that’s the traditional role. I also want to ditch this idea that if a young pitcher is in the pen for a year or two that their starting development is hindered. Way too many examples of this happening successfully (see Johan Santana).  I actually think our pen could be filled with some of these young pitchers with promise - can’t be worse than the pens we have had filled with castoffs and rejects. Again by doing this the young pitchers will show you who is a potential starter, who is a reliever and who is AAAA.