Vikings Offseason Thread

[nicksaviking]

31 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Trade up and waste picks for a team on a rebuild. Or draft one of the fringe talents and force him in earlier than he should be in when Sam Darnold or whoever is completely horrendous. Remember, some fans can wait a couple years for things to work out. The GM and front office have their jobs on the line and Kwesi doesn’t exactly have a long leash. I worry the Vikings are setting themselves up for the classic continuous rebuild, hoping to hit on a quarterback through the draft. As tenuous as it can be to always use free agency to find a quarterback, at least you know what you have.

Not an enviable situation.

It's not wasting picks if you get a good QB. 

Besides, I've seen no evidence this front office can evaluate players that get drafted after round one. Who wouldn't trade Booth and Cine to move up and get a better QB?

[Aggies7]

8 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

It's not wasting picks if you get a good QB. 

Besides, I've seen no evidence this front office can evaluate players that get drafted after round one. Who wouldn't trade Booth and Cine to move up and get a better QB?

I’m sure they’d be giving up a first rounder to move up though, correct?

[nicksaviking]

Sam Darnold it is.

Like I mentioned before, I really could care less about who the veteran QB was going to be on this team. What I am annoyed at is that people continue to think Shanahan is some magic QB guru. Darnold started one meaningless week 17 game last year. None of the starters or back up QBs that have left SF have done jack squat. It's not the QB's it's the system.

[nicksaviking]

Just now, Aggies7 said:

I’m sure they’d be giving up a first rounder to move up though, correct?

To get one of the top three, almost certainly. And I'm more than fine with that.

[nicksaviking]

I think I'd rather have taken a chance on JK Dobbins or AJ Dillon than Aaron Jones. The guy is almost 30.

[Aggies7]

17 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Sam Darnold it is.

Like I mentioned before, I really could care less about who the veteran QB was going to be on this team. What I am annoyed at is that people continue to think Shanahan is some magic QB guru. Darnold started one meaningless week 17 game last year. None of the starters or back up QBs that have left SF have done jack squat. It's not the QB's it's the system.

Mullens > Darnold lol

[Mike Sixel]

I felt both these offensive players would be in Minnesota, so no surprise this morning there. Joseph likely being gone is fine with me. 

I'm guessing the Vikings deal up, and don't have a second round pick this year. McCarthy will be here, unless NE picks him. 

[nicksaviking]

36 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Mullens > Darnold lol

They're basically the same interception machine. I guess if I had to choose, I'd pick Darnold since he's not a complete statue and is two years younger.

[gunnarthor]

1 hour ago, nicksaviking said:

 

 

[Parfigliano]

6 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

 

JJ is making noises about wanting Fields at QB.  Hope the suits do not listen to him.

[Cap'n Piranha]

7 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

To get one of the top three, almost certainly. And I'm more than fine with that.

To get one of the top 3 picks, the Vikings are giving up #9, their first next year, and probably even more.  Every team in the Top 10 knows the Vikings are desperate for a QB now, and they will exact a toll for that.  If the QB they take is CJ Stroud, that's an acceptable deal to make--I think we would all gladly trade that package for CJ Stroud.  If the QB they take is Bryce Young, or Zach Wilson, or Mitch Trubisky, or Sam Darnold?  Forget about even sniffing the playoffs until 2027, while enjoying the fun that Carolina gets right now--sending your first overall pick to someone else.

I definitely think a rebuild is necessary, and I have for a couple of years.  It starts with getting a rookie-scale QB--its very dangerous to attempt to do that by trading picks to make it happen.  I would have preferred that the Vikings actually commit to it, and not sign free agents at all.

[Danchat]

Here is what I have our updated depth chart looking like:

(color grades from PFF, last 2-3 seasons)

Nice to see some green on defense! Time to beef up the DL and hopefully find another iOL.

[nicksaviking]

42 minutes ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

To get one of the top 3 picks, the Vikings are giving up #9, their first next year, and probably even more.  Every team in the Top 10 knows the Vikings are desperate for a QB now, and they will exact a toll for that.  If the QB they take is CJ Stroud, that's an acceptable deal to make--I think we would all gladly trade that package for CJ Stroud.  If the QB they take is Bryce Young, or Zach Wilson, or Mitch Trubisky, or Sam Darnold?  Forget about even sniffing the playoffs until 2027, while enjoying the fun that Carolina gets right now--sending your first overall pick to someone else.

I definitely think a rebuild is necessary, and I have for a couple of years.  It starts with getting a rookie-scale QB--its very dangerous to attempt to do that by trading picks to make it happen.  I would have preferred that the Vikings actually commit to it, and not sign free agents at all.

Yeah, if they screw up the QB, they'll be back to square one. It will be frustrating, but it's already frustrating being on square 8 or whatever this purgatory we call mediocrity is. And if they are BAD bad, then we don't have to have coaches and GMs waste our time for half decade desperately trying to be average at the expense of actually being great, just to save their jobs. They'll just be gone.

Greenard is the only free agent that will be difficult to part with should it be necessary. And if they do use additional picks to move up, they'll need some free agents because they won't have a ton of picks to plug in. Not that they like to plug in rookies unless they have to.

[gunnarthor]

Hunter is going to Houston for two years and roughly 50m. I'm a bit surprised. I thought he'd get 3 or 4 years but 2 years at 25 each year isn't insane. I think, with our salary cap fixes, we could have afforded that and still have signed one of Van Ginkel/Greenard to go with Cashman. Maybe I'm wrong.

In any event, best of luck to Hunter. 

[nicksaviking]

16 hours ago, Danchat said:

Here is what I have our updated depth chart looking like:

(color grades from PFF, last 2-3 seasons)

Nice to see some green on defense! Time to beef up the DL and hopefully find another iOL.

Man, I really dislike the interior of the offensive line. It really seems weird for a modern NFL team to dismiss this area and regard it as unimportant for so long now. Can they get Connor Williams? And if so, will he be healthy? Outside of a trade or the draft, the remining interior free agents don't look very good. Risner is like the best available.

[Cap'n Piranha]

18 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

Yeah, if they screw up the QB, they'll be back to square one. It will be frustrating, but it's already frustrating being on square 8 or whatever this purgatory we call mediocrity is. And if they are BAD bad, then we don't have to have coaches and GMs waste our time for half decade desperately trying to be average at the expense of actually being great, just to save their jobs. They'll just be gone.

Greenard is the only free agent that will be difficult to part with should it be necessary. And if they do use additional picks to move up, they'll need some free agents because they won't have a ton of picks to plug in. Not that they like to plug in rookies unless they have to.

It's very true that they could quite easily get rid of every FA they just signed.  My point wasn't they're now locked into a bunch of deals.  My point was that if you're going to rebuild, then just rebuild.  There should be no players on this team who don't project to still be on the team in 2026, because the idea is to find as many young, cost-controlled players as possible.  If we're truly rebuilding, the goal is to either be awful in 2024 and 2025, or if we're not awful, it's because we found enough quality young players that we're ahead of schedule.

I don't see the point of getting a top 10 defense that will help us win games if we don't have an offense that can score on playoff-caliber opponents.  If these new players make our defense better, and keep us from getting the draft ammo to rebuild, these deals were mistakes, since most/all of these players will be gone/part-time players in 2026.

[Mike Sixel]

3 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

Man, I really dislike the interior of the offensive line. It really seems weird for a modern NFL team to dismiss this area and regard it as unimportant for so long now. Can they get Connor Williams? And if so, will he be healthy? Outside of a trade or the draft, the remining interior free agents don't look very good. Risner is like the best available.

I'm not sure they are ignoring it.....they just have bigger holes right now? I mean, the choices weren't great in FA......If they can keep their 2nd round pick after trading up, I bet they deal down and pick up a 3rd and 4th and use one of those on an IOL (though I'd stay put and take BPA).

[nicksaviking]

2 minutes ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

It's very true that they could quite easily get rid of every FA they just signed.  My point wasn't they're now locked into a bunch of deals.  My point was that if you're going to rebuild, then just rebuild.  There should be no players on this team who don't project to still be on the team in 2026, because the idea is to find as many young, cost-controlled players as possible.  If we're truly rebuilding, the goal is to either be awful in 2024 and 2025, or if we're not awful, it's because we found enough quality young players that we're ahead of schedule.

I don't see the point of getting a top 10 defense that will help us win games if we don't have an offense that can score on playoff-caliber opponents.  If these new players make our defense better, and keep us from getting the draft ammo to rebuild, these deals were mistakes, since most/all of these players will be gone/part-time players in 2026.

Yeah, I get it, and I'm guessing that's the idea, even if the team is deluded.

But they also don't have enough draft picks to fill up the defensive side. And they didn't draft well enough in terms of players or positions the last two years to plug in guys they previously drafted either. So Cashman and Van Ginkel are basically stop gaps until they do. I hope.

[nicksaviking]

3 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

I'm not sure they are ignoring it.....they just have bigger holes right now? I mean, the choices weren't great in FA......If they can keep their 2nd round pick after trading up, I bet they deal down and pick up a 3rd and 4th and use one of those on an IOL (though I'd stay put and take BPA).

I'd have rather signed a better guard or center than signed BOTH Cahsman and Van Ginkel. I can't imagine there will be a ton of packages with both those two and Pace. Seems to be some overlap there unless Van Ginkel is going to be a very undersized DE.

[Cap'n Piranha]

36 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

I'd have rather signed a better guard or center than signed BOTH Cahsman and Van Ginkel. I can't imagine there will be a ton of packages with both those two and Pace. Seems to be some overlap there unless Van Ginkel is going to be a very undersized DE.

If the plan is to draft a QB in round 1 (and if it's not, I honestly have no clue what they're doing), then the priority should have been building up the offensive infrastructure to support the rookie; at this point that means IOL.  That's my way of saying that I absolutely agree with you that signing IOL help should have been the main focus of the FA period, not redundant defensive players.

[nicksaviking]

56 minutes ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

If the plan is to draft a QB in round 1 (and if it's not, I honestly have no clue what they're doing), then the priority should have been building up the offensive infrastructure to support the rookie; at this point that means IOL.  That's my way of saying that I absolutely agree with you that signing IOL help should have been the main focus of the FA period, not redundant defensive players.

For sure. QB first, than the IOL and then defensive front seven were my only priorities this off season, so they were close to my game plan, but off a bit. Build from the inside out. I preferred to spend money on the IOL first, mostly because the last couple decades this team has been way better at finding D front seven players at all spots in the draft and has really struggled with the OL. 

But I suppose it's a new front office, maybe that will all change. So far I've seen little evidence of that, but with them using 50% of their picks on DBs in the first two drafts, I suppose we don't have a great read on their proficiency at other positions yet.

[gunnarthor]

1 hour ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

If the plan is to draft a QB in round 1 (and if it's not, I honestly have no clue what they're doing), then the priority should have been building up the offensive infrastructure to support the rookie; at this point that means IOL.  That's my way of saying that I absolutely agree with you that signing IOL help should have been the main focus of the FA period, not redundant defensive players.

So I'm not sure this is a fair criticism. The Vikings have a pretty good cast of characters for the new QB and added a solid running back. 

To the extent you want to complain about the IOL, I think you also need to be realistic about what options there were, rather than just saying "I want to spend money on it." According the the NFL list of free agents I linked above (and here), there weren't many IOL available. The highest ranked guy was a guard who they noted wanted to play tackle. The second highest on their list was Robert Hunt, who signed a 5 year / 100m deal with the panthers. He's 28. Next on their list was center Lloyd Cushenberry. He signed a four-year, $50 million deal that includes $26 million fully guaranteed and a signing bonus worth more than $18 million with Tennessee. I'm not sure we should have beat that offer. 

Maybe John Simpson? 2/18m for the Jets. He was #43 on the free agent list.
Raiders resigned their center on a 3/24m deal. Maybe him? He was #45 on the free agent list.
Kevin Dotson got 3/48 with 32 of that guaranteed. He timed his bounce season perfectly. I'd pass. 

And the list goes on. And somehow the Vikings IOL didn't grade out as poorly as some think. A lot of sacks/pressures were not just on the line but also on the QB/scheme of holding the ball for 4+ seconds. 

[nicksaviking]

Harrison Smith is coming back per PFT (they curiously didn't provide a source):

https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/harrison-smith-agrees-to-remain-with-vikings-on-reworked-contract

This seemed inevitable since he wasn't released with the slew of other safeties last week and the Vikings aren't a team that would do a long time player dirty by screwing him out of first dibbs on free agency. He's definitely taken a step back the last couple of years. They must not think much of Jay Ward, and this leaves no doubt about Lewis Cine being a bust.

There were lots of younger, better safeties out there, I assume this reworked deal has to be for near league minimum.

[Mike Sixel]

7 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Harrison Smith is coming back per PFT (they curiously didn't provide a source):

https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/harrison-smith-agrees-to-remain-with-vikings-on-reworked-contract

This seemed inevitable since he wasn't released with the slew of other safeties last week and the Vikings aren't a team that would do a long time player dirty by screwing him out of first dibbs on free agency. He's definitely taken a step back the last couple of years. They must not think much of Jay Ward, and this leaves no doubt about Lewis Cine being a bust.

There were lots of younger, better safeties out there, I assume this reworked deal has to be for near league minimum.

Not how I'd spend money, but I doubt it matters too much one way or the other.

[gunnarthor]

37 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Harrison Smith is coming back per PFT (they curiously didn't provide a source):

https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/harrison-smith-agrees-to-remain-with-vikings-on-reworked-contract

This seemed inevitable since he wasn't released with the slew of other safeties last week and the Vikings aren't a team that would do a long time player dirty by screwing him out of first dibbs on free agency. He's definitely taken a step back the last couple of years. They must not think much of Jay Ward, and this leaves no doubt about Lewis Cine being a bust.

There were lots of younger, better safeties out there, I assume this reworked deal has to be for near league minimum.

How much did he play last year? Was he every down or more a Studwell thing where he started but others took more of his snaps?

[Cap'n Piranha]

2 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

So I'm not sure this is a fair criticism. The Vikings have a pretty good cast of characters for the new QB and added a solid running back. 

To the extent you want to complain about the IOL, I think you also need to be realistic about what options there were, rather than just saying "I want to spend money on it." According the the NFL list of free agents I linked above (and here), there weren't many IOL available. The highest ranked guy was a guard who they noted wanted to play tackle. The second highest on their list was Robert Hunt, who signed a 5 year / 100m deal with the panthers. He's 28. Next on their list was center Lloyd Cushenberry. He signed a four-year, $50 million deal that includes $26 million fully guaranteed and a signing bonus worth more than $18 million with Tennessee. I'm not sure we should have beat that offer. 

Maybe John Simpson? 2/18m for the Jets. He was #43 on the free agent list.
Raiders resigned their center on a 3/24m deal. Maybe him? He was #45 on the free agent list.
Kevin Dotson got 3/48 with 32 of that guaranteed. He timed his bounce season perfectly. I'd pass. 

And the list goes on. And somehow the Vikings IOL didn't grade out as poorly as some think. A lot of sacks/pressures were not just on the line but also on the QB/scheme of holding the ball for 4+ seconds. 

A new rookie QB will probably not be a wizard at getting the ball out fast, right?  So extra OL help would be very beneficial to give the QB that extra moment to process.  If the IOL wasn't all that bad, what happens if anyone gets injured?

At a certain point, you might need to overpay to get better at a position, and offensive line is the single most important position group on the field, especially if you're going to bring in a rooke at QB.  I just think the play this year was to do everything you can to maximize the offense, knowing that you could set yourself up for a 3 year window with no glaring needs, meaning you can shotgun the defense.

[Vanimal46]

9 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

Can they get Connor Williams? And if so, will he be healthy?

They could but given he tore his ACL in December I doubt he’ll be a factor for much, if any of 2024. 

[Vanimal46]

 

[Parfigliano]

2 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Not how I'd spend money, but I doubt it matters too much one way or the other.

He can contribute to them losing as often as possible.

[nicksaviking]

2 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

How much did he play last year? Was he every down or more a Studwell thing where he started but others took more of his snaps?

Smith played 98% of defensive snaps. In fact, he played 1113 snaps, the most of his career. Bynum played 99% of the snaps and Metellus played 94%.

So with three safeties they ran a nickel or some kind of 5 or more DB coverage 94% of the time. That's why it kind of seems odd to sign both Van Ginkel and Casham while Pace is here and seemingly capable. One of those guys will be off the field just about every play unless they're lining up with the big boys up front next to Phillips. Van Ginkel seems most likely, but he's a heck of a lot smaller than Wonnum, and way smaller than Bullard and Lowery who were on the field when Wonnum wasn't.