Baldelli and Gray

[Hawkeye Bean Counter]

2 hours ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

IMO, all these are having a better year so far them him - Eovaldi, Cole, Valdez, Bieber, Gausman, Berrios, McClanahan, Castillo, Ohtani, Ryan, Jon Gray, Rodriguez, so yes maybe if enough guys bow out he will get a spot.

The only two stats that makes him look good are ERA (which of course could be/probably would be higher if he was pitching more innings like the other pitchers and WAR, which in his case makes no sense since the team is 7 - 7 in his stars and about the same as Eovali's and he has been a much, much better pitcher this year.

WAR effectively takes everything into account.  You put Gray on any other team with more run support than the Twins and he is likely pushing 11 to 12 wins.   You put some of those other pitchers with the same run support Gray had and they likely have less than 7 wins.   All starters have bad starts.  Gray has been incredibly effective and even on the days he hasn't had his best stuff,  he still battles til the end.     I will gladly take the highest WAR pitcher (excluding Ohtani however only 1.9 is from pitching to Gray's 2.8) any day of the week and he absolutely deserves to be in the All Star discussion.  I also take him hands down over Berrios, Ohtani (as a pitcher only) Gray.  The fact that he is in discussion of the top 4-5 pitchers is amazing.   

Just for innings review - S. Gray 76, Berrios 85, Ohtani 82, Eovaldi 93, J Gray 73. Rodriguez 67, Cole 91.  So only Cole and Eovaldi are significantly ahead on innings pitched.  Lets not act like we are still only letting pitchers go 4 innings a game on regularity.  

[chpettit19]

15 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

My thought is even he goes 2 successfully, you still have 3 innings to go, which means either you using your 3 best relief pitchers in a back to back games or you are bringing in Pagan and Lopez which for first is O'fer on holds opportunities this year, and the other has been worse ,so if you go with the best 3 it will be  leaving them very short handed today and possibly tomorrow if they throw a bunch of pitches. 

IMO you can't go into a Joe Ryan game with your 3 best pitchers unavailable (how many times have pitchers pitched in 3 straight games?), that is unacceptable and Joe Ryan hasn't completed 8 innings yet this year, so at minimum you need two innings from the pen, but Ryan hasn't finished 7 since April 25 and only twice this year, so really you are going to need 3 innings from the pen with your best 3 probably unavailable.

IMO, when your bullpen is a short as the Twins, and a starter goes 4, the next guy at a minimum has to give you two innings no matter what and 3 would ideal. Moran wasn't giving the twins 3 innings and it was very unlikely to give you 2 since that has only happened twice this year and both times where in April and I believe with Thielbar healthy.

 

Totally fair. I think it's a tough spot for a manager. I'd have put Gray back out for another inning with Moran ready to go if needed. I'd have tried to get that 5th inning out of him, though. But I don't see a lot of easy answers for a manager in a 2 run game when your starter only goes 4 (or even 5). I don't know that Moran would've been my choice if I were set on taking Gray out there, but I don't see a huge difference in him vs the other options. When you only have 3 semi-reliable relievers in close games it's awfully difficult for me to put too much blame on a manager who has a starter who just doesn't have it that day, and an offense you can't trust to score anymore runs in the game. Very few brilliant decisions to be made for this team in my opinion.

[chpettit19]

9 minutes ago, Woof Bronzer said:

But my point is that all "fresh relievers" are not created equally.  Replacing Gray with Duran is a much different proposition than replacing him with Moran.  The specifics of the situation have to factor into the decision.  "Any reliever is better than a laboring starter" is just factually false, so if that's the process here I'd say it's pretty flawed.  

Yeah, I don't disagree with that. That's what I was saying in the part you cut off. The Twins believe their relievers are better than many of us believe they are. That's the big disconnect in the "fresh reliever vs laboring starter" equation. You not trusting Moran vs them trusting Moran is the biggest difference in this, not the idea that a fresh arm is better than a laboring one.

[jmlease1]

26 minutes ago, TopGunn#22 said:

I will be contrary to the prevailing logic that there's nothing to see here.  Gray was frustrated at being treated like Chris Archer LAST year.  He's still chaffing at Rocco's quick hooks.  A pitcher that has thrown 79 pitches through four innings isn't in any sort of groove but with a 4-2 lead show me a starter who wants to come out with the clear chance of a win if he can throw a scoreless 5th.  I predict Gray is gone at season's end.  That, coupled with the probable parting of ways with Maeda and Mahle leaves the Twins with Lopez, Ryan, Ober and Varland with maybe Paddock.  Nobody in AA or AAA has shown they are ready to step up and be counted on.  To me, this points to the need make a trade either at this year's deadline or in the off season to bring in at least one more reliable SP.

Look, it's possible you're right and Sonny Gray is mad at the Twins, doesn't like Rocco, thinks the designs they have for him are wrong, doesn't trust Maki, is sick of the whole thing and wants out, whatever. (I don't believe there's good information to prove it, however) But if Sonny Gray thinks he's going to go to another team and suddenly they're going to be letting him go 7-8 innings on the regular, throwing 110+ pitches, etc then he's dreaming. How many teams are out there that see a starter at 90+ pitches through 5 and think "sure, he's probably got another 1-2 innings in him" any longer? At least in June, anyways. (playoffs might be different)

Pretty much everyone thinks Gray is gone after this season, but that's because he's pitching well enough to command a very nice multi-year contract, and the Twins are unlikely to go 3-4 years for a player entering his age-34 season at $20M AAV, especially when they can get a compensatory pick for him by making the QO (which they would be happy to pay if he accepted). It's not because they think Sonny Gray hates it here. It's about the money, the contract length, and the draft pick.

[TwinsDr2021]

1 minute ago, IA Bean Counter said:

WAR effectively takes everything into account.  You put Gray on any other team with more run support than the Twins and he is likely pushing 11 to 12 wins.   You put some of those other pitchers with the same run support Gray had and they likely have less than 7 wins.   All starters have bad starts.  Gray has been incredibly effective and even on the days he hasn't had his best stuff,  he still battles til the end.     I will gladly take the highest WAR pitcher (excluding Ohtani however only 1.9 is from pitching to Gray's 2.8) any day of the week and he absolutely deserves to be in the All Star discussion.  I also take him hands down over Berrios, Ohtani (as a pitcher only) Gray.  The fact that he is in discussion of the top 4-5 pitchers is amazing.   

I think only Twins fans think he is a top 4 or 5 pitcher, he isn't even the top pitcher on his own team. He isn't McClanahan, Cole, Valdez, Eovaldi or Rodriguez.

Last 12 starts

Pitcher A  - 75 1/3 innings, 2.27 ERA

Pitcher B  - 70 innings, 3.72 ERA

Pitcher C - 64 innings, 2.67 ERA

Pitcher D - 73 2/3 innings, 2.32 ERA

Pitcher E - 71 2/3 innings, 3.01 ERA

What order are you taking those pitchers?

I am going D, A, E, and tie between B and C (C is Sonny Gray and the others aren't any of the the pitchers I listed above that are better)

[chpettit19]

7 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

I think only Twins fans think he is a top 4 or 5 pitcher, he isn't even the top pitcher on his own team. He isn't McClanahan, Cole, Valdez, Eovaldi or Rodriguez.

Last 12 starts

Pitcher A  - 75 1/3 innings, 2.27 ERA

Pitcher B  - 70 innings, 3.72 ERA

Pitcher C - 64 innings, 2.67 ERA

Pitcher D - 73 2/3 innings, 2.32 ERA

Pitcher E - 71 2/3 innings, 3.01 ERA

What order are you taking those pitchers?

I am going D, A, E, and tie between B and C (C is Sonny Gray and the others aren't any of the the pitchers I listed above that are better)

For what it's worth, MLB.com has him ranked 6th overall in baseball right now.

https://www.mlb.com/news/fifth-starting-pitcher-power-rankings-of-2023

[Beast]

I’m tired of hearing every move this organization makes that doesn’t work was the right move because of a theory.

Their job is to achieve the desired result.  That’s it.  There’s no consolation prize.  There’s no theoretical win but actual loss.

Was pulling Gray the right move in a vacuum?  Sure, maybe.  None of us know for sure, so acting like it was 100% correct is disingenuous.  But, I wont dispute it - we’ll go with that premise.  The problem is then going into a bullpen that is a complete abomination.  That has to be factored into the equation.  Gray was laboring…so we turn over to guys incapable of getting outs?  And that’s something we should credit somebody for?  If Gray truly was cooked, you just lose either way.

Thats where the problems lie.  There were moves (or lack there of) that led to the failure in that moment.  Their job is put together a bullpen that gets results.  They seemingly can’t do that.  I’m not going to turn around and credit them for a good move in that situation with that being the case.  They failed.

Bottom line, their collective decision making led to the failure.  Not luck.  There are “oh well, that’s baseball” moments.  I agree.  But, when you’re saying that 3-4 times per week, there’s a larger problem that requires accountability.

[TwinsDr2021]

14 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Totally fair. I think it's a tough spot for a manager. I'd have put Gray back out for another inning with Moran ready to go if needed. I'd have tried to get that 5th inning out of him, though. But I don't see a lot of easy answers for a manager in a 2 run game when your starter only goes 4 (or even 5). I don't know that Moran would've been my choice if I were set on taking Gray out there, but I don't see a huge difference in him vs the other options. When you only have 3 semi-reliable relievers in close games it's awfully difficult for me to put too much blame on a manager who has a starter who just doesn't have it that day, and an offense you can't trust to score anymore runs in the game. Very few brilliant decisions to be made for this team in my opinion.

I am not trying to get into the Gray decision, should he have stayed or not. I am going solely on how the heck you finish the last 5 innings of the game, don't blow up your pen for the next night or two. IMO if you are willing to take out a starter after 4, you can't really afford to worry about the score at that time, there is still more than half the game to go. you put a plan together that gives you the best chance at the end of the game, and if the Twins or anybody thinks or expects to for a bullpen to go 5 without giving up a run or a few runs that is crazy thinking. So you put your long or middle guy in and say go give me a couple of innings. at least that is what I would have done. Others can disagree, blame the FO for the options, but if I am the manager I have to work with what I am given, and I can tell you if I was taking Gray out there, it would have NOTHING to do with preventing an injury for one more innings, those kind of excuses are IMO the worst possible excuses.

[TwinsDr2021]

4 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

For what it's worth, MLB.com has him ranked 6th overall in baseball right now.

https://www.mlb.com/news/fifth-starting-pitcher-power-rankings-of-2023

That was before last night, and somehow actually innings pitched don't seem to matter to some people.

They have Cole below him, he has 1 more start, 15 2/3 more innings, ERA of 2.75 and a lower WHIP. So I am going to take that ranking with a grain of salt.

[chpettit19]

Just now, TwinsDr2021 said:

That was before last night, and somehow actually innings pitched don't seem to matter to some people.

They have Cole below him, he has 1 more start, 15 2/3 more innings, ERA of 2.75 and a lower WHIP. So I am going to take that ranking with a grain of salt.

The point was simply that it isn't just Twins fans who rank him in the top 4-5 in the AL. That's a national ranking by people who have no investment in the Twins at all, and they rank him 5th in the AL. I wouldn't have him 5th, but him being a possible all star is very real.

[Hawkeye Bean Counter]

7 minutes ago, jmlease1 said:

Pretty much everyone thinks Gray is gone after this season, but that's because he's pitching well enough to command a very nice multi-year contract, and the Twins are unlikely to go 3-4 years for a player entering his age-34 season at $20M AAV, especially when they can get a compensatory pick for him by making the QO (which they would be happy to pay if he accepted). It's not because they think Sonny Gray hates it here. It's about the money, the contract length, and the draft pick.

Honestly I don't think the Twins could have drawn up a better outcome if this were to occur other than taking a short term discounted deal because he like the Twins.  Gray will likely end up as a 7-8 WAR player over 2 season.   They would get a comp pick at the end of the 1st round (effectively the pick they picked Chase Petty #26 to the low 30's).  Otherwise Gray accepts the QO for around $20 million - which I don't see him doing,  he will want to cash in after this season.  The only way this trade doesn't work out is if Petty becomes a #1 pitcher or Gray gets injured or falls apart for the end of the year.   If the Twins wish they could take another gamble on a high school pitcher, or other high end college pitcher.  

[TopGunn#22]

chpettit19 and jmlease1 you both make good counterpoints to what I wrote.  I think we're actually fairly close in how we see this.  Each of us would have probably given the ball to Gray to start the 5th and hoped he could have a relatively clean, scoreless inning and finish with between 90-95 pitches through 5 innings.  The fact that two of the buttons Rocco pushed for his bullpen (Moran and Jorge Lopez) completely blew up is probably what got this topic started anyway.  If Moran comes in and throws 2 scoreless innings and Lopez closes down the 9th Rocco and all of us here on TD are geniuses.  

So that leads me to another question.  What are your thoughts on Anthony Bass as a veteran who could help our BP?  Assuming the Twins are smart enough to put Maeda in the BP when he returns, those two arms could have a tremendous stabilizing effect on the pen and give Rocco more reliable options.  At this point, I think Varland has earned his spot as a #5 starter on this team.  

[Hawkeye Bean Counter]

5 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

The point was simply that it isn't just Twins fans who rank him in the top 4-5 in the AL. That's a national ranking by people who have no investment in the Twins at all, and they rank him 5th in the AL. I wouldn't have him 5th, but him being a possible all star is very real.

Are we really arguing if a player is 4th 5th or 6th this year ?? Whether a Twins fan thinks he is 4th or 5th, and a couple baseball rankings stating 6th that isn't a significant variability,  could merely be preference.  What Doctor is stating is he isn't even in the discussion of the top 8 pitchers this year, and I find that quite the disservice to Gray's performance so far this year.  

[MABB1959]

9 hours ago, Squirrel said:

If you get the Athletic, this article is pretty good and gives a healthy perspective. Pitchers never want to be pulled, so I can respect Gray’s will to want to stay in the game and keep fighting. But a manager has to make the best decision for the team and that doesn’t always lineup with one player’s desire. They both expressed themselves and they both accepted this is how it is.

https://theathletic.com/4615303/2023/06/16/twins-sonny-gray-rocco-baldelli/

It would make perfect sense IF Baldelli new how to manage a game

[chpettit19]

6 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

I am not trying to get into the Gray decision, should he have stayed or not. I am going solely on how the heck you finish the last 5 innings of the game, don't blow up your pen for the next night or two. IMO if you are willing to take out a starter after 4, you can't really afford to worry about the score at that time, there is still more than half the game to go. you put a plan together that gives you the best chance at the end of the game, and if the Twins or anybody thinks or expects to for a bullpen to go 5 without giving up a run or a few runs that is crazy thinking. So you put your long or middle guy in and say go give me a couple of innings. at least that is what I would have done. Others can disagree, blame the FO for the options, but if I am the manager I have to work with what I am given, and I can tell you if I was taking Gray out there, it would have NOTHING to do with preventing an injury for one more innings, those kind of excuses are IMO the worst possible excuses.

Yeah, my question is why you think that isn't what they did? They used 3 pitchers to get them through the last 5 innings. They've shown they trust Moran to go more than 1 inning. But he was bad in his 1 inning, and with it still being just a 1 run game they didn't want to put him out there again to give up more runs. So they went to a different middle guy in Pagan who got them the 2 innings you wanted, and kept the game a 1 run game. Are you saying you would've left Moran in for the 6th or that you don't think Moran was going to be used for 2 innings no matter what? I'm not really seeing the difference in what you're asking from what they did.

[chpettit19]

5 minutes ago, IA Bean Counter said:

Are we really arguing if a player is 4th 5th or 6th this year ?? Whether a Twins fan thinks he is 4th or 5th, and a couple baseball rankings stating 6th that isn't a significant variability,  could merely be preference.  What Doctor is stating is he isn't even in the discussion of the top 8 pitchers this year, and I find that quite the disservice to Gray's performance so far this year.  

I'm not arguing about his ranking at all. I was simply showing that it isn't just Twins fans who have him ranked highly, and as a possible all star. I don't really care where people rank him. Was just providing a national, non-Twins centric source that also rates him highly.

[TwinsDr2021]

4 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

The point was simply that it isn't just Twins fans who rank him in the top 4-5 in the AL. That's a national ranking by people who have no investment in the Twins at all, and they rank him 5th in the AL. I wouldn't have him 5th, but him being a possible all star is very real.

Well then those people are just looking at WAR and ERA, because when you actually start comparing numbers, Starts(14 starts, only 5 pitchers have 15) IP (21st), WHIP (23rd), K/9(14th), QS (26th), ERA (5th), he doesn't match up well with other American league starters. Those rankings are just in the American league.

I didn't include wins because I don't think they mean a ton, but in his case maybe it should because he doesn't pitch very deep into games and thus not generally part of the decision win or loss, which explains his 4 -1 record.

[Beast]

23 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

For what it's worth, MLB.com has him ranked 6th overall in baseball right now.

https://www.mlb.com/news/fifth-starting-pitcher-power-rankings-of-2023

That’s pretty interesting.  Really good pitcher.  But, he’s got 5 quality starts this year.  Joe Ryan has 10.

[chpettit19]

24 minutes ago, TopGunn#22 said:

chpettit19 and jmlease1 you both make good counterpoints to what I wrote.  I think we're actually fairly close in how we see this.  Each of us would have probably given the ball to Gray to start the 5th and hoped he could have a relatively clean, scoreless inning and finish with between 90-95 pitches through 5 innings.  The fact that two of the buttons Rocco pushed for his bullpen (Moran and Jorge Lopez) completely blew up is probably what got this topic started anyway.  If Moran comes in and throws 2 scoreless innings and Lopez closes down the 9th Rocco and all of us here on TD are geniuses.  

So that leads me to another question.  What are your thoughts on Anthony Bass as a veteran who could help our BP?  Assuming the Twins are smart enough to put Maeda in the BP when he returns, those two arms could have a tremendous stabilizing effect on the pen and give Rocco more reliable options.  At this point, I think Varland has earned his spot as a #5 starter on this team.  

I don't think Lopez would've seen the field at all if Moran had thrown 2 scoreless innings, but that's not really here nor there. 

I don't know what kind of clubhouse the Twins have, and how Bass would fit into it. Pretty well accepted that Donaldson's personality didn't work in the Twins clubhouse, and that was a large part of why they wanted to move on so badly. Bass also hasn't been very good this year. 1.4 WHIP, 4.68 FIP, and fewer strikeouts than innings pitched isn't somebody I'd bend over backwards to get. I think it says a lot that he went unclaimed on waivers, and still doesn't seem to have any suitors. I don't really agree that putting Maeda in the pen is the smart move either. They're going to need starts from guys outside their current rotation still this year, and Headricks is the only other guy I see who may be a possibility there. They have a lot of work to do on the pen, but I'm not sure those 2 are the answers I'd go with.

[chpettit19]

7 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Well then those people are just looking at WAR and ERA, because when you actually start comparing numbers, Starts(14 starts, only 5 pitchers have 15) IP (21st), WHIP (23rd), K/9(14th), QS (26th), ERA (5th), he doesn't match up well with other American league starters. Those rankings are just in the American league.

I didn't include wins because I don't think they mean a ton, but in his case maybe it should because he doesn't pitch very deep into games and thus not generally part of the decision win or loss, which explains his 4 -1 record.

I'm not arguing about his ranking. I honestly don't care where anyone ranks him. I think he's a really solid pitcher, and if he makes the All Star game I'll be happy for him. I'm simply pointing out that there are people outside of Twins Territory that think highly of him.

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, Bigfork Twins Guy said:

I can see both sides of this coin in removing him or not removing him.  My greater concern is why did we go with the 1 or 2 inning guys from the 4th inning on?  Don't we have a long-reliever just for that purpose?  Any why don't we use them that way?  We seem to rarely use the long relievers and then complain that they don't get enough work.

Don't get me wrong, the starters have been great this year.  On those occasions like yesterday, it feels like 2022 all over again where we bring in short relievers and they get burned out over the course of the season.  It seems like every day 3-4 relievers are not available due to this strategy.  Use the long guy or send him down and at least bring up an additional short guy if you're going this way.

They used Winder Tuesday because he hadn't been used in so long, then didn't replace him on the roster. Poor roster management.

[jmlease1]

12 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

They used Winder Tuesday because he hadn't been used in so long, then didn't replace him on the roster. Poor roster management.

I assumed that since he only went 2 innings that he would be available to pitch 2-3 innings again on Friday and they are looking at keeping Winder as a part of the bullpen until Thielbar or someone is ready to come back. not unreasonable since Moran (who has been pretty effective this season since April until yesterday's shocker) and Pagan can both go multiple innings.

[Hawkeye Bean Counter]

27 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Well then those people are just looking at WAR and ERA, because when you actually start comparing numbers, Starts(14 starts, only 5 pitchers have 15) IP (21st), WHIP (23rd), K/9(14th), QS (26th), ERA (5th), he doesn't match up well with other American league starters. Those rankings are just in the American league.

I didn't include wins because I don't think they mean a ton, but in his case maybe it should because he doesn't pitch very deep into games and thus not generally part of the decision win or loss, which explains his 4 -1 record.

IP isn't a big deal over all.  K/9 - Sonny Gray is more of a control pitcher than a strike out pitcher,  the fact he is this high is good.  Whip,  may have something here - basically stating his ERA is outperforming his whip.   ERA is fairly strong.  He doesn't give up home runs which allows him to have a slightly higher whip to get out of innings and jams.    He is pitching over 5 1/3 inning on average per a start.  Again you appear to just be quibbling because the Twins tend to take their pitchers out early.  If thats the case talk to management because that isn't changing with any pitcher that pitches for the Twins.  

[TwinsDr2021]

54 minutes ago, IA Bean Counter said:

Are we really arguing if a player is 4th 5th or 6th this year ?? Whether a Twins fan thinks he is 4th or 5th, and a couple baseball rankings stating 6th that isn't a significant variability,  could merely be preference.  What Doctor is stating is he isn't even in the discussion of the top 8 pitchers this year, and I find that quite the disservice to Gray's performance so far this year.  

umm, yes you are the one that started the talk about ranking. remember this - "The fact that he is in discussion of the top 4-5 pitchers is amazing. '

"IP isn't a big deal" so the fact that others have in the same amount of starts have basically pitched in two more games in some cases than him doesn't count? In the last 12 games Berrios for example has pitched in 11 more innings than him with a lower ERA, but those extra 11 shouldn't count against Gray (based on his average start it is like Berrios has started two more games in the same period of time)

So IP isn't a big deal, K/9 isn't a big deal how about WHIP or Quality starts?

But I will add, if somebody said you get one pitcher for 5 innings and no more, Gray would be way high on my list of choices!

[Nine of twelve]

3 hours ago, Squirrel said:

This is the part that makes me frustrated. We can’t expect every starter to have a good day. Bad days happen, struggles happen. Gray isn’t a 9-inning pitcher. I don’t know if I would have pulled him after 4, but I also don’t think pulling him was wrong or suspect in any way. But not having the BP to support him, that’s frustrating and something I completely blame the FO for. Gray didn’t have it last night. Maki and Baldelli made the decision to pull him. Being the competitor he is, he got upset and didn’t want to come out of the game. I can respect that. Baldelli stuck to his decision. I can respect that, too. I think both of them deserve kudos in their pressers after the game for showing such professionalism. But the FO does us all a disservice on all of this. BP construction matters and deserves attention.

We can't expect every reliever to have a good day every time either. Bad days and struggles happen for them too. If you're going to go easy on Gray by saying no more than he "didn't have it last night" then treat the relievers the same way.

[chpettit19]

28 minutes ago, jmlease1 said:

I assumed that since he only went 2 innings that he would be available to pitch 2-3 innings again on Friday and they are looking at keeping Winder as a part of the bullpen until Thielbar or someone is ready to come back. not unreasonable since Moran (who has been pretty effective this season since April until yesterday's shocker) and Pagan can both go multiple innings.

Oh, I'm sure this was the thought as well, but when you end up having a starter only go 4, and don't have your long guy, it doesn't look good. Sands being hurt is probably the biggest catalyst for them not moving Winder down for 15 days (well that and the AAA guys currently struggling outside of Headricks). I think if they have both of them healthy they bounce them back and forth throughout the year as needed when one pitches to always have someone capable of 3+ innings around. It's not a super gigantic mistake to not have a long guy, and most of the time him throwing 2 innings here and there wouldn't hurt, but it bit them this time.

[RickOShea]

One pitcher who comes to mind, when talking about never wanting to leave a game early, was John Lackey.  This guy just came up short of becoming violent, when he thought a mgr was coming to get him.  He was definitely a competitive individual and a little rough around the edges.  He filed for divorce from his first wife while she was battling cancer.  Just to give you an idea of his perspective.

[jorgenswest]

Only one team has more innings from their starters this year than the Twins. If you throw an inning like his fourth yesterday after having large pitch count second inning you are going to have an early exit. Teams need to protect their pitching assets. 

This is on Gray. The Twins need him to be better. He needs to trust his defense and start attacking hitters particularly at the bottom of the order.

[Hawkeye Bean Counter]

45 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

umm, yes you are the one that started the talk about ranking. remember this - "The fact that he is in discussion of the top 4-5 pitchers is amazing. '

"IP isn't a big deal" so the fact that others have in the same amount of starts have basically pitched in two more games in some cases than him doesn't count? In the last 12 games Berrios for example has pitched in 11 more innings than him with a lower ERA, but those extra 11 shouldn't count against Gray (based on his average start it is like Berrios has started two more games in the same period of time)

So IP isn't a big deal, K/9 isn't a big deal how about WHIP or Quality starts?

But I will add, if somebody said you get one pitcher for 5 innings and no more, Gray would be way high on my list of choices!

Regarding my amazing comment is no one was  expected this type of performance out of him at the beginning of the season,  how he is doing is amazing.  Considering we could get 2 years of service and another high draft pick for trading Chase Petty is an excellent outcome,  sorry you don't like my optimism. 

"IMO, all these are having a better year so far them him - Eovaldi, Cole, Valdez, Bieber, Gausman, Berrios, McClanahan, Castillo, Ohtani, Ryan, Jon Gray, Rodriguez, so yes maybe if enough guys bow out he will get a spot. "  Those are your words.  As to the ranking that is where I came up with my statement.  You are stating he is no where in the top 12 pitchers -  your words not mine.    

Lets look at the Twins pitchers.  Pablo Lopez is averaging an extra 2 outs an inning,  Joe Ryan an extra out.  To me this isn't a statistically big deal. In comparison to other Twins pitchers this is about the amount of innings Twins management will allow them to pitch.   For the most part you are arguing about team philosophies.   

I am very happy with the way Gray has pitched.  Of the starting pitchers you are considering he has given up the least amount of home runs,  has one one of the lowest ERA,  leads the league or tied for WAR for just pitching.  If you want to give Gray away be my guest.  He has had a hell of a season so far.  Maybe he is due for some regression.  I guess statistically showing that other publications have Gray 6th tends to lead credibility to my take.  The fact you so vehemently want to attack it seems not only anti Twin but also anti Sonny Gray.  I understand some of the points you are making,  however its not like what other are thinking of Sonny Gray is just pie in the sky and dreams.  

I think we are both fairly steadfast in our positions,  no need for me to continue this discussion after this post.  

 

[Hawkeye Bean Counter]

5 minutes ago, jorgenswest said:

Only one team has more innings from their starters this year than the Twins. If you throw an inning like his fourth yesterday after having large pitch count second inning you are going to have an early exit. Teams need to protect their pitching assets. 

This is on Gray. The Twins need him to be better. He needs to trust his defense and start attacking hitters particularly at the bottom of the order.

This has more to do with the Twins depth than philosophy.  Varland and Ober are racking up a lot more innings that most #4 and #5 pitchers.