Byron Buxton

[Fornasiere-ite]

It's time to take the kid gloves off with Byron Buxton. 

Byron was removed from the game after taking a 95MPH heater to the ribs in yesterdays comeback thriller against the Guardians, and I can't help but wonder if the Twins are taking too much caution when it comes to the generational talent. I know, I know, I know... the guy is an injury magnet and we pay him a lot of money to be in the lineup, and keeping him healthy is our main priority, but...

I think we are treating him like a fragile sunflower. The demands of a 162-game schedule take its toll on the bodies of these guys, playing dinged up and sore is what comes with the territory. As I was watching the game last night, I thought taking Buck out with sore ribs was just a little too tentative. Now if it comes back that he has 3 fractured ribs, I will eat the crow that comes with this post. However, in a game where we desperately needed a jolt, subbing Donovan "Mr. Singles" Solano into the three hole seemed like it would come back to bite us in the ass.  It was not an injury that was likely to lead to an aggravation, and a little toughness out of one of our clubhouse leaders I think would go a long way. I have never doubted Buck's commitment, or willingness to run head first into a wall, I just wanted to see him try and tough it out. If you treat an athlete like he's fragile, he is going to think he's fragile. 

[Mike Sixel]

You try getting hit in the ribs with a 97 MPH pitch. Unreal. 

[Mike Sixel]

Seriously awful take. 

[ashbury]

5 minutes ago, Fornasiere-ite said:

It's time to take the kid gloves off with Byron Buxton.

I wouldn't do that.  Bare-knuckle fighting would probably injure anyone.  The pitch to the ribs was bad enough.

[Fornasiere-ite]

3 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

You try getting hit in the ribs with a 97 MPH pitch. Unreal. 

Believe it or not, I have. It feels awful, but it will feel awful for the next few days and I expect him to play some of those. My point is every once in a while, I just want to see the guy stick it out. There is a different between hurting and injured. 

[Mike Sixel]

3 minutes ago, Fornasiere-ite said:

Believe it or not, I have. It feels awful, but it will feel awful for the next few days and I expect him to play some of those. My point is every once in a while, I just want to see the guy stick it out. There is a different between hurting and injured. 

Dude has played hurt for three years....nearly every year, really. These are humans in pain, playing a sport every day (nearly) for 6 months, plus training. No one gets to this level being "soft". No one.

[Hawkeye Bean Counter]

Umm,  he hits on a topic that is touchy.  Buxton seems to fall apart even with just moderate use.  I am almost certain you put him out in the field he will be on the injured list within a month.   However,  being pulled in a game after taking a 97 heater come on man.  You probably wanted Farmer to keep playing after getting drilled in the face and losing a couple teeth.  

[Fornasiere-ite]

4 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Dude has played hurt for three years....nearly every year, really. These are humans in pain, playing a sport every day (nearly) for 6 months, plus training. No one gets to this level being "soft". No one.

My contention is not that he is soft, It's that we treat him like he is. To pretend there is not a spectrum of toughness with MLB or minor league guys is crazy. I just wanted one of my favorite players to say "no, I'm staying in this game, even though it hurts." 

[Craig Arko]

I can only imagine how Tony Oliva would have been treated by social media after coming back as a DH only following his knee injury.

[Fornasiere-ite]

Just now, Craig Arko said:

I can only imagine how Tony Oliva would have been treated by social media after coming back as a DH only following his knee injury.

To be fair, I'm not arguing that his role as DH is not appropriate. Do I think he is a better offensive player when he is also roaming centerfield, yes. Taking time to adjust to the hitter-only lifestyle takes adjustment, and he is still figuring that out IMO. 

[Squirrel]

While I want to see Buck in the outfield, and hope he's out there at some point this season, I think using the example of being hit in the rib cage to show how he's somehow not tough enough is a very bad example. Not having him in the outfield, now, that's where I'd agree with you. But we don't know personally how anyone deals with injury ... and everyone is different ... generalizing is really not a good way to go. imho.

[Fornasiere-ite]

4 minutes ago, IA Bean Counter said:

Umm,  he hits on a topic that is touchy.  Buxton seems to fall apart even with just moderate use.  I am almost certain you put him out in the field he will be on the injured list within a month.   However,  being pulled in a game after taking a 97 heater come on man.  You probably wanted Farmer to keep playing after getting drilled in the face and losing a couple teeth.  

Haha no, Farmer taking one of the chops scared the crap out of me. The fact that he has the courage to get back into the box without flinching at every right-on-right breaking ball impresses the hell out of me. 

[Riverbrian]

Until Byron starts hitting the ball. I am more comfortable with Solano at the plate. 

The Twins are doing whatever they can to keep him in the lineup. If it works or not remains to be seen but they are trying something with the best of intenions. Not all plans work in life but plans must be made. 

However, until he starts hitting, the plan doesnt matter much when keeping him in the lineup hurts the team. 

[Fornasiere-ite]

2 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

While I want to see Buck in the outfield, and hope he's out there at some point this season, I think using the example of being hit in the rib cage to show how he's somehow not tough enough is a very bad example. Not having him in the outfield, now, that's where I'd agree with you. But we don't know personally how anyone deals with injury ... and everyone is different ... generalizing is really not a good way to go. imho.

I can respect that. And as I said, I don't think it's a question of whether he is tough or not. Without a doubt, he has seam marks imprinted into his side, and is bruised as hell. 

[farmerguychris]

As long as we can  have a quality CF like Taylor, I'm ok with Buck being the DH... But, if we start to have a glaring weakness out there, then I think its time to reconsider.  I think we got a great deal with the contract we gave him as a CF, but as a DH its not as good.  Do they think he'll be the DH for the next 6 years?  That doesn't sound as appealing.  No doubt he is injury prone, but so was Molitor early in his career.  Hope he can get in the field again at least a few days each week to spread out the wear and tear on everyone - not just him.

[Fornasiere-ite]

3 minutes ago, farmerguychris said:

As long as we can  have a quality CF like Taylor, I'm ok with Buck being the DH... But, if we start to have a glaring weakness out there, then I think its time to reconsider.  I think we got a great deal with the contract we gave him as a CF, but as a DH its not as good.  Do they think he'll be the DH for the next 6 years?  That doesn't sound as appealing.  No doubt he is injury prone, but so was Molitor early in his career.  Hope he can get in the field again at least a few days each week to spread out the wear and tear on everyone - not just him.

Couldnt agree more. He doesn't need to be a 5 days in CF a week guy, but a couple days a week seems manageable. 

[chpettit19]

If you gave me the choice between Solano and Buxton last night to come up with a big hit late I would've taken Solano 100 out of 100 times. You add a 97 MPH fastball to the ribs on top of how he's currently hitting, and he gets even further behind Solano on the list of guys I trust right now. 

I also don't understand the desire to have him stay in the game "even though it hurts" when that wasn't what was best for the team. It's not motivating any of his teammates. He wasn't the best option to get a hit. I don't understand what good would have come from Buxton going up there and hitting last night.

As for him hitting better as a CFer than a DH, his career OPS as a CFer is .770. As a DH it's .795. Now that takes into account his early career struggles, and those all came as a CFer, but last year his OPS as a CFer was .853 while his OPS as a DH was .823. Fewer than 100 PA difference (230 in CF, 148 as DH). That's not a line that screams he's struggling to adjust to being a DH. He's just not good right now.

[Fornasiere-ite]

10 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

If you gave me the choice between Solano and Buxton last night to come up with a big hit late I would've taken Solano 100 out of 100 times. You add a 97 MPH fastball to the ribs on top of how he's currently hitting, and he gets even further behind Solano on the list of guys I trust right now. 

I also don't understand the desire to have him stay in the game "even though it hurts" when that wasn't what was best for the team. It's not motivating any of his teammates. He wasn't the best option to get a hit. I don't understand what good would have come from Buxton going up there and hitting last night.

As for him hitting better as a CFer than a DH, his career OPS as a CFer is .770. As a DH it's .795. Now that takes into account his early career struggles, and those all came as a CFer, but last year his OPS as a CFer was .853 while his OPS as a DH was .823. Fewer than 100 PA difference (230 in CF, 148 as DH). That's not a line that screams he's struggling to adjust to being a DH. He's just not good right now.

Need a hit, definitely Solano. My thinking was we were down a few runs at the time, and need a 3-run blast, its always Buxton. I honestly don't know if it was best for the team to not have one of your superstars in the lineup, despite some of his struggles. I grew up idolizing guys like Ripken, Jeter, and Derrin Erstad. Guys who always believed they could help the team, whether they were banged up or not, and whether they were right or not. I just want to see that out of Buck... and maybe I'm expecting to much. 

[Fornasiere-ite]

17 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

As for him hitting better as a CFer than a DH, his career OPS as a CFer is .770. As a DH it's .795. Now that takes into account his early career struggles, and those all came as a CFer, but last year his OPS as a CFer was .853 while his OPS as a DH was .823. Fewer than 100 PA difference (230 in CF, 148 as DH). That's not a line that screams he's struggling to adjust to being a DH. He's just not good right now.

I have felt at times that his at-bats in key situations this year have looked disjointed, and rightly or wrongly, I attribute some of that to a disconnection from game flow. It's not that he is not engaged, I know he is, I just think it's easier to be connected when you are focusing on defense for half of the time. It's hard to maintain focus in baseball, always, and playing defense helps break up the paralysis by analysis that only focusing on hitting can bring. 

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, Fornasiere-ite said:

I have felt at times that his at-bats in key situations this year have looked disjointed, and rightly or wrongly, I attribute some of that to a disconnection from game flow. It's not that he is not engaged, I know he is, I just think it's easier to be connected when you are focusing on defense for half of the time. It's hard to maintain focus in baseball, always, and playing defense helps break up the paralysis by analysis that only focusing on hitting can bring. 

That feels like just needing to find something to blame his struggles on. There's nothing in his overall performance to suggest DHing is causing him to struggle. If he's able to stay connected in the non-key situations I find it hard to believe he's suddenly disconnected in the key situations because he's DHing. When he goes on his hot streaks, of which he's had a couple this year, including right out of the gate, we don't say "man, Buxton only DHing is really allowing him to thrive" so I'm not sure why we'd turn around and blame his struggles on DHing.

[KirbyDome89]

28 minutes ago, Craig Arko said:

I can only imagine how Tony Oliva would have been treated by social media after coming back as a DH only following his knee injury.

If the team (or Buxton) came out and confirmed he wasn't physically able to handle playing CF I think a decent amount of the hang wringing goes away. I'm doubtful we see him in the OF at any point this season. I know the goalposts have already shifted to the postseason but even that seems like a pipe dream; Idk why we'd expect to see him playing CF 100 games later in October when he hasn't been able to come close in May. Right now the vagueness surrounding his role kinda feels like a long setup for disappointment. I can understand some of the frustration; I feel it myself. 

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, KirbyDome89 said:

If the team (or Buxton) came out and confirmed he wasn't physically able to handle playing CF I think a decent amount of the hang wringing goes away. I'm doubtful we see him in the OF at any point this season. I know the goalposts have already shifted to the postseason but even that seems like a pipe dream; Idk why we'd expect to see him playing CF 100 games later in October when he hasn't been able to come close in May. Right now the vagueness surrounding his role kinda feels like a long setup for disappointment. I can understand some of the frustration; I feel it myself. 

Given he hasn't played there....I think they have confirmed that.

They can say whatever they want, many "fans" won't believe them (see all over this board) anyway. 

Actions speak louder than words, and their actions make it clear what they think of him in the OF right now.

[Fornasiere-ite]

5 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

That feels like just needing to find something to blame his struggles on. There's nothing in his overall performance to suggest DHing is causing him to struggle. If he's able to stay connected in the non-key situations I find it hard to believe he's suddenly disconnected in the key situations because he's DHing. When he goes on his hot streaks, of which he's had a couple this year, including right out of the gate, we don't say "man, Buxton only DHing is really allowing him to thrive" so I'm not sure why we'd turn around and blame his struggles on DHing.

Well the alternative is cutting off a live chicken head. 

[chpettit19]

8 minutes ago, Fornasiere-ite said:

Need a hit, definitely Solano. My thinking was we were down a few runs at the time, and need a 3-run blast, its always Buxton. I honestly don't know if it was best for the team to not have one of your superstars in the lineup, despite some of his struggles. I grew up idolizing guys like Ripken, Jeter, and Derrin Erstad. Guys who always believed they could help the team, whether they were banged up or not, and whether they were right or not. I just want to see that out of Buck... and maybe I'm expecting to much. 

Fair point on the HR vs single situation. But I'd take Solano's chances of just getting a hit, or on base, and keeping the line moving over Buxton hitting a HR last night. Buxton had 3 HRs in May. He's not exactly a high likelihood to hit one right now. 

Why do you think you're not seeing that out of Buck? As you said in an earlier post, there's a spectrum of pain, toughness, whatever. How do you know we're not seeing Buck playing on the extreme end of that spectrum? When I watch him he certainly doesn't look like he's playing pain free. I think it's pretty clear he feels pain all the time. He "toughed it out" last year, and played while he was banged up, even when he stopped helping the team when he was out there.

I hear what you're saying, and don't think it's crazy or anything. I just care more about what's best for the team to win games than seeing their star play at far less than a star level simply to say he's out there trying to help. I think we're not being told about a potentially career altering knee problem for Buxton. The team wants him in CF, on the bases, in the box, everywhere more than the fans do. If they thought he had any chance of holding up playing a game or 2 a week they'd play him a game or 2 a week. I think he's playing through real knee (or hip, or whatever's hurting him) pain everyday. And I don't like him doing it just to do it when he's not helping the team. I'd at least drop him down to the bottom of the order.

[chpettit19]

Just now, Fornasiere-ite said:

Well the alternative is cutting off a live chicken head. 

I know people who have some chickens...

[Fornasiere-ite]

2 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I know people who have some chickens...

Now we are being productive. 

[sampleSizeOfOne]

Does taking off my kid gloves mean i'm no longer allowed to act childish?

I'll keep my kid gloves on a little while longer.

 

And hope Byron can help with now and future games.

[Fornasiere-ite]

1 minute ago, sampleSizeOfOne said:

Does taking off my kid gloves mean i'm no longer allowed to act childish?

I'll keep my kid gloves on a little while longer.

 

And hope Byron can help with now and future games.

Oh no, us here in fandomville shall now and forever be allowed to act childish. That's what makes us so special. 

It's our Minnesotan fan deficiency that allows us to hope rather than expect. I too share your hope. 

[Fornasiere-ite]

9 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Fair point on the HR vs single situation. But I'd take Solano's chances of just getting a hit, or on base, and keeping the line moving over Buxton hitting a HR last night. Buxton had 3 HRs in May. He's not exactly a high likelihood to hit one right now. 

Why do you think you're not seeing that out of Buck? As you said in an earlier post, there's a spectrum of pain, toughness, whatever. How do you know we're not seeing Buck playing on the extreme end of that spectrum? When I watch him he certainly doesn't look like he's playing pain free. I think it's pretty clear he feels pain all the time. He "toughed it out" last year, and played while he was banged up, even when he stopped helping the team when he was out there.

I hear what you're saying, and don't think it's crazy or anything. I just care more about what's best for the team to win games than seeing their star play at far less than a star level simply to say he's out there trying to help. I think we're not being told about a potentially career altering knee problem for Buxton. The team wants him in CF, on the bases, in the box, everywhere more than the fans do. If they thought he had any chance of holding up playing a game or 2 a week they'd play him a game or 2 a week. I think he's playing through real knee (or hip, or whatever's hurting him) pain everyday. And I don't like him doing it just to do it when he's not helping the team. I'd at least drop him down to the bottom of the order.

Yeah it definitely does feel like we are out of the loop on the extent of his knee/hip issues. And I truly believe that he plays through pain almost every day. I just have such high expectations for the guy, and it kills me to see him not in the lineup. I just want 1991 Game 7 Jack Morris Mentality when TK tried to take him out. It's the "dont you F'en dare take me out of this game, because I am the guy." 

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, Fornasiere-ite said:

Yeah it definitely does feel like we are out of the loop on the extent of his knee/hip issues. And I truly believe that he plays through pain almost every day. I just have such high expectations for the guy, and it kills me to see him not in the lineup. I just want 1991 Game 7 Jack Morris Mentality when TK tried to take him out. It's the "dont you F'en dare take me out of this game, because I am the guy." 

Totally get it. But that mentality also lead to Matt Harvey demanding to stay in game 5 against the Royals only to hurt the team, and lose the game. It's a fine line. I just really hope we're not seeing the end of Buxton in CF forever. He's way too talented for this to be the career he has.