This prospect's loud contact is turning heads - only he is no longer ours.

[Heiny]

56 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

what about pitchers? please let me know if there was a rule change

@Heiny @Steve Lein @Squirrel @chpettit19

I believe you are correct that they could actually drop a pitcher, but I highly doubt that they would go with 12 pitchers.  Not with Rocco's penchant for over-using the pen.  That leaves the players mentioned in the previous post which I "strongly agree with".

[jmlease1]

CES was the player I was most bummed about losing in that deal, but him smashing the ball in spring training doesn't mean he's the next David Ortiz in Twins lore. It's 18 PAs from a guy who has never played above AA in early March. And if Mahle has a good, healthy season then it's probably all fine.

I don't really understand all the sturm and drang over this: we knew we gave up some good prospects to get Mahle at the time. Steer hit his way into a bad Cincy team and promptly discovered that MLB pitching is a lot harder than AA or AAA dudes. Maybe he'll adjust...or maybe he's a utility guy who can't play SS but hits more like one. Hajjar still hasn't thrown a pitch above A-ball. CES is a terrific hitter who stinks at 3B, is probably passable at 1B, and no one knows for sure if he can actually hit enough to make it. Look, I really liked him and was bummed to lose him, but you have to give up talent to get talent...and so far he's still unproven. You know who else is having a fantastic spring so far? Brent Rooker. Does anyone here think Brent Rooker is a future all-star?

Right now this is reminding me a little of when we lost Akil Baddoo in the Rule V and suddenly a bunch of people "knew" that we had made a colossal mistake and everyone should be fired. Where would Baddoo sit with the Twins roster today? Fighting with Celestino for a place on the 40-man, and very possibly losing.

Maybe this 20-20 hindsight is just an opportunity for those who already want this front office gone to take a shot and see who they can get to go along for the ride.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

But then, maybe it's not those things.  🙂

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

20 minutes ago, Heiny said:

I believe you are correct that they could actually drop a pitcher, but I highly doubt that they would go with 12 pitchers.  Not with Rocco's penchant for over-using the pen.  That leaves the players mentioned in the previous post which I "strongly agree with".

That other poster is talking about the 40-man, not the 26-man.

[Squirrel]

41 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Frankly, with the two ill-advised trades (in my strong opinion) combined with the infield injuries this spring, Steer might have been in the opening day lineup.

As I said a moment ago, there might be a new rule in the new CBA about 40-man roster requirements. 

 

Steer, imo, isn’t better than Lee or Julien. That’s my point. I don’t think either Steer or ES (who this thread is about, not Steer) would be next in line in depth with the Twins. Again, would you rather have an Archer-Bundy-line pitcher this year instead? 

[Heiny]

13 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

That other poster is talking about the 40-man, not the 26-man.

My bad!

 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

10 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

Steer, imo, isn’t better than Lee or Julien. That’s my point. I don’t think either Steer or ES (who this thread is about, not Steer) would be next in line in depth with the Twins. Again, would you rather have an Archer-Bundy-line pitcher this year instead? 

That's kind of a false dilemma.. i've been in these discussions in the past about how to build a pitching staff, but not lately, and 've stopped trying to figure out what their approach to pitching is. I had no opinion on the Mahle trade that I can remember. But if you are asking me to choose between Mahle or Archer/Bundy, then I will choose Zack Wheeler or Jose Berrios. 🙂

[Squirrel]

4 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

That's kind of a false dilemma.. i've been in these discussions in the past about how to build a pitching staff, but not lately, and 've stopped trying to figure out what their approach to pitching is. I had no opinion on the Mahle trade that I can remember. But if you are asking me to choose between Mahle or Archer/Bundy, then I will choose Zack Wheeler or Jose Berrios. 🙂

Wow. Okay. You aren’t following and keep changing the discussion so I’ll leave it there.

And we’ve had a couple of very good threads this spring about building a rotation.

Guess you missed those 🙂

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

1 minute ago, Squirrel said:

Wow. Okay. You aren’t following and keep changing the discussion so I’ll leave it there.

And we’ve had a couple of very good threads this spring about building a rotation.

Guess you missed those 🙂

No I'm following! This thread is about Christian Encarnacion-Strand. I just happen to want to talk about the other pieces in that trade. 🙂

[Beast]

He’ll turn into a star, because Minnesota Twins.

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

what about pitchers? please let me know if there was a rule change

@Heiny @Steve Lein @Squirrel @chpettit19

No idea why I'm mentioned here or even what you're asking. You quoted a comment about the 40-man and I've never mentioned it. But to @Squirrel 's point above, the 40-man spot isn't even as important as the position player depth chart. I don't think CES even had to be on the 40-man yet. Doesn't appear to be on the Red's 40-man. I'm thoroughly confused by what you're asking and why you tagged me. 

Here's my stance: CES and Steer are dime a dozen prospects. Both likely make the bigs. Maybe good enough to have some seasons as everyday players. They don't play up the middle, and aren't superstar type bats. I'll trade 5 of them to get a #2 quality major league pitcher. Wouldn't even think twice. Hajjar is a nice pitching prospect with mid-rotation upside. Would trade 3 of those for a #2 quality major league pitcher. I'm a huge prospect nerd, and love the hope they provide, but things have gotten out of control around here with the prospect hype. Talk of trading Polanco to clear room for Julien is crazy. Not signing Gallo so Wallner has a spot? Blows my mind. If Julien and Wallner make 1 All Star game between them it'd be an incredible win for the FO and player dev guys. Polanco is a top 10 2B on baseball and people want to move him so a no glove, solid prospect in AA has an opening day job?! That's awful team building strategy. Matt Wallner can't field to save his life and will K every bit as much as Gallo, with less power most likely. But they shouldn't sign Gallo so Wallner can be a worse version of him in the OF instead? Nonsense. The idea that the Twins organization would be better off with 3 prospects buried at their respective positions in this organization instead of a major league pitcher of Mahle's caliber blows my mind. I can't understand it. So I don't know why you tagged me in that question about CES and the 40-man, but there's nobody, pitchers included, that I'd waive from the 40-man to get him on it because there's a puff piece on him hitting the ball hard in the first 2 weeks of spring. He'd have to jump about 10 position players for me to even think about it. We're most likely not going to remember who he is in 2 years.

[Fat Calvin]

2 hours ago, Bigfork Twins Guy said:

I guess we agree to disagree then.  I just believe that negotiators have more respect for each other, although they are adversaries, if they know the other negotiator is trying to work out a fair deal for both sides.  If they know that the other negotiator is the cut-throat all for my client type, then the likelihood that they even offer a fair deal is greatly diminished as is their respect for the other negotiator.

I used to negotiate contracts and I can tell you from my experience, I had much better results for my clients when I had a respectful relationship with the other negotiator.

Well, when you put it that way, how could I disagree?  You've persuaded me.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

12 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

Who gets cut from the 40 person if we actually still had these two players? It would have to be two of Julien, Lewis, Miranda, Larnach, Wallner.

I don't think there's a requirement for how many pitchers are carried on the 40-man roster. So, no, I don't think the Twins would necessarily have to part ways with Julien, or Lewis, or Miranda, and so on, to carry Steer or Encarnacion-Strand this year. They could look to one of the pitchers on the 40-man.

For example Sands or Headrick, maybe would be good candidates to get cut. Pagan is a fan favorite. Keep an eye on the first players passed off the 40-man once the season starts, and there would be your answer. 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Hosken Bombo Disco

[Nashvilletwin]

3 hours ago, Squirrel said:

ES hasn’t either. So why the consternation?

ES is a prospect and potentially a very strong one. Mahle is now basically a one year rental.  No consternation per se.  But ES has upheld his end of the deal SO FAR while Mahle has not.  Thus, TO DATE, the trade has been bad from our point of view.  But, as I said, let’s see what the future holds - a lot of outcomes still possible.

[Squirrel]

10 hours ago, Nashvilletwin said:

ES is a prospect and potentially a very strong one. Mahle is now basically a one year rental.  No consternation per se.  But ES has upheld his end of the deal SO FAR while Mahle has not.  Thus, TO DATE, the trade has been bad from our point of view.  But, as I said, let’s see what the future holds - a lot of outcomes still possible.

All I’m saying, if it’s about what they’ve contributed to a major league roster, ES hasn’t yet. Again why I said in a different post, let’s check back … too soon to call the trade a bust or a win, but I still think it was a good trade, and I’d do it aegain in a heartbeat. Pitching is costly no matter how you go about it. And good pitching is what everyone needs. The fact that Mahle had another year of control means the FO was hoping for future contributions and not just last year, which didn’t work out. Again, I’d still make that trade. And pulling the trigger on a trade for a position of need using prospects of depth is something all good teams do. 

[saviking]

I hated to lose him. He's a hitting machine and would make a good full time DH for someone but I don't think the Twins would have ever made him that. 

[Jocko87]

5 hours ago, Squirrel said:

 Again, I’d still make that trade. And pulling the trigger on a trade for a position of need using prospects of depth is something all good teams do. 

It will take this fan base a bit of time to adjust to that pivot that the front office has made (not that I blame us).  We are now firmly in the fill needs through asset management camp and out of the build from within model that made everyone covet prospects.  There is a reason they are drafting a ton of college shortstops and pitchers-not for the roster but for trade chips.  We are going to see players that were part of the organization succeed elsewhere, its a good thing. 

Just as a random curiosity, I went through three different AZ Diamondbacks message boards.  Nobody gives a **** Duran is being Duran max.  Oddly there was much more chatter about Duran Duran for some reason.  They didn't seem to care when he left either.  Its almost as if future value is much harder to predict than present value.  Would they feel different if they could look 4 years ahead?  Probably but it still might make sense to make the deal.

We are in the good place now, embrace it.

[Mike Sixel]

20 hours ago, Bigfork Twins Guy said:

I guess we agree to disagree then.  I just believe that negotiators have more respect for each other, although they are adversaries, if they know the other negotiator is trying to work out a fair deal for both sides.  If they know that the other negotiator is the cut-throat all for my client type, then the likelihood that they even offer a fair deal is greatly diminished as is their respect for the other negotiator.

I used to negotiate contracts and I can tell you from my experience, I had much better results for my clients when I had a respectful relationship with the other negotiator.

Same, and it isn't close.