Reusse: Always are Angry Twins Followers

[LaBombo]

Looks like I've been dismissed...oh well.

 

Don't feel too bad. You made some good points, but using mere logic to tackle a post with "love" and "Pohlads" in the same sentence is like handling anti-matter with salad tongs.

[bird]

Don't feel too bad. You made some good points, but using mere logic to tackle a post with "love" and "Pohlads" in the same sentence is like handling anti-matter with salad tongs.

 

Especially when you lack the capacity to understand the context of the post and therefore apply ridiculous "mere logic", LaBombo. And when your heart is ice cold.

[Highabove]

This is the Man who saved Twins Baseball for all of us, Judge Harry Crump. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_evoBtXXWMAc/Ro18PMN0wQI/AAAAAAAAAE8/mBtteGnzXj8/s1600/crump.gif

The Pohlad's did everything they could to liquidate the Twins and cash in on a big pay day. Judge Crump blocked them.

If the Pohlad's had been successful, this thread along with Twins Daily would not exist.

I am thankful for judge Crump. I have not forgiven the Pohlad's.

 

 

USATODAY.com - Judge orders Twins to play next season

[nicksaviking]

But my objection isn't personal. It's about unfair vitriol. Directed at ANYONE. You're guilty of that, nick. Happens your hatred is towards Carl for whatever reasons.

 

And this notion that a kid who's exposed to whatever environment is to be pre-judged? That's an insipid form of prejudice. Does a poor kid get the same treatment from you?

 

I never used the word hate, as a rule I generally don't use that word toward people, nor have I attacked you, the vitriol is coming from your side. I've been called ignorant, unchritable and now prejeduced by you since lunch. As for my reasons for my lack of respect, I've listed those already.

 

I rightly assumed you had a personal connection to the family and appologized that the words said about them wounded, but you're not going to swing the opinion of them on an internet forum by going on the attack. Perhaps they give to charities and maybe they treat their employees decently, but their most high profile venture happens to be one of the states most charished possesions. If they wanted to have an untarnished image, they should have thought about that in their dealings with the one business that is in the media most often. They didn't think that way, or they didn't care, either way they've used the Twins as a weapon to reap huge profits, and all from the pockets of the people who love the team the most.

[Guest USAFChief]

I was very much in favor of a new, partially publicly funded stadium for the Twins. I, for one, wouldn't have any problem with the portion of stadium costs the Pohlad family was asked to contribute if they were in fact contributing that amount. Instead, they are funding their stadium contribution from stadium revenue at the expense of the team on the field. In effect, they aren't contributing any of their own money towards building the stadium. I find that dishonest at best, and that is my problem with the Pohlad family. They got their stadium, their franchise value more than doubled, and they haven't lived up to their end of the bargain.

[PseudoSABR]

Happy Trolls are just as bad as Hateful Trolls. That some people don't find blind optimism offensive, doesn't mean that pollyanneishness doesn't negatively affect many people's participation in discussion. It offends my intellect when someone brandishes their baseless happy-takes as legitimate. Just as it offends my intellect when someone tries to frame their ideological pessimism as critical analysis. That one narrative unreasonably casts Hicks as the hero and the other defiantly scripts Correia as the villain hardly matters in terms of each's repugnance.

[Kwak]

Away from the Pohlads and back to Reusse's article--the premise of this thread. He learned his "journalism" from Don Riley decades ago and often repeats the theme of rabid homerism and the derision of outsiders. Well that's part of "Minnesota Nice"--and the folks here drink that Kool-Aid by the gallon. The Twins (and their management) have been bashed bloody this off-season (Reformation) and the Jesuits have been summoned (or should I have used the Russian example? substitute Cossaks then) to beat the "haters" (apostates) back to the "True Faith" (Trust Us and trust Terry). This response was inevitable. The tome expected--"Them" are: unrealistic in their expectations, ungrateful for the gifts bestowed, unappreciative of the wisdom and love provided and must immediately repent or face eternal xxxxnation.

 

Reusse is bashing those who use electronic media to vent--which is basically what he gets paid to do. He needs a "timeout".

 

My points of contention with the Twins lie in the following areas: 1) their duplicitious nature 2) their arrogance and 3) their sense of entitlement.

[snepp]

Especially when you lack the capacity to understand the context of the post and therefore apply ridiculous "mere logic", LaBombo. And when your heart is ice cold.

 

You seem to be having a problem understanding the difference between attacking an argument, and attacking a poster.

 

Ease up, or you'll be taking a timeout from the forum.

[bird]

Chief, I'm confused. So, they're paying their agreed-to contribution, right? And out of their own revenue stream, not someone else's, right? I mean, you're certainly not arguing that the stadium revenue, or any other revenue stream, belongs to anyone but the Twins, right? Why do you believe that the stadium revenue is something other than their own revenue? And if it IS their revenue, why do you care if that's the stream they use to pay their obligation?

 

Now, I totally get the point you and others make that the Twins aren't giving us the product they ought to give us. I partially agree that they're short-changing us in the short-term on the quality of the product.

 

Where, in the bargain "we" made with the Pohlads, was it promised they would pay their contribution from some other bucket than from their operations? Maybe I'm missing something, Chief, but I don't believe I'm entitled to a better product because of some bargain or promise. I AM entitled to not buy the product if it's crappy or too expensive. And I have chosen to avoid Target Field, sadly, because it pisses me off that MOST of our community can't afford the product. Why? Because Kevin Correia and his ilk deserve $5M, because the Twins and MLB are greedy, and because fans greedily demand that their team jack up their payroll so teams end up paying lightweights like Delmon Young $5 freakin' million dollars.

 

So, why do we let ourselves off the hook for this whole economic abomination and slap the bullseye on Pohlad? Because we can, I suppose.

[Longdistancetwins]

I like this and I like Reusse (what little I’ve read of him). My two-cents, as a 45-year, far-off fan, is that I never bought into “The Twins have some of the best fans in the country” line that I often hear. The bulk of local fans are extremely affectionate when we win—and that’s delightful—but the fans that follow most closely and are most knowledgeable are indeed, quite critical. I remember a line in Danny Thompson’s book about how about 1500 fans came out for a game in the mid-1970’s, and they turned out to be the team’s biggest booers. No, they are not quite Phillies fans, but the whole “Minnesota-nice” thing doesn’t wash with me, and that’s fine.

[bird]

Don't feel too bad. You made some good points, but using mere logic to tackle a post with "love" and "Pohlads" in the same sentence is like handling anti-matter with salad tongs.

 

Help me out, snepps. Was this attacking an argument?

[diehardtwinsfan]

I'm probably a little bit of 1, 2, and 3, though I don't know if the word "angry" describes what I feel... Disappointment, sure.

 

I do think that receiving public funding obligates the owners to spend a bit more to keep the team competitive. They did that in 2010, but not so much the last two years.

 

I like what Terry Ryan is doing for the future with aquisitions like Meyer and May. Like Brock, I feel better aquisitions could have been made for the present that could take a 70 win team and make them an 80 win team. Even in 2009, when we had no business being in the playoffs, I was glued to the race because we were in it.

 

Gardy has some problems yes, though as others have said, I wasn't a fan of his long before the last two seasons.

[Guest USAFChief]

Chief, I'm confused...

If one wants to understand why diverting money that could (should?) otherwise go to payroll to instead fund stadium costs, it's not hard. On the other hand, if one wants to avoid the point, and pretend the Pohlads are living up to their promised contribution, it's easy to be "confused."

[TheLeviathan]

Happy Trolls are just as bad as Hateful Trolls. That some people don't find blind optimism offensive, doesn't mean that pollyanneishness doesn't negatively affect many people's participation in discussion. It offends my intellect when someone brandishes their baseless happy-takes as legitimate. Just as it offends my intellect when someone tries to frame their ideological pessimism as critical analysis. That one narrative unreasonably casts Hicks as the hero and the other defiantly scripts Correia as the villain hardly matters in terms of each's repugnance.

 

I was going to say something akin to this. Chief was right, the real enemy of a team is apathy. But apathy isn't just a cold shoulder to the team, it's also in the form of being so committed to being this ideal of "fan" that you utterly ignore issues that can and SHOULD be criticized so as not to appear negative. Criticism, even harsh criticism, can be productive and positive. This approach, and many on this board seem to possess it, that anything critical or skeptical should be treated as a form of mutiny on their fanhood is completely absurd. But more than that, it is actually LESS helpful to our favorite team.

 

Our ballclub would be better, now and in the future, if it understood why their "best" free agency move is being panned rather than celebrated. The hope being that if we criticize it and detail why it was an awful baseball decision - perhaps their decision making gets better! Better baseball decisions lead to a better baseball team. Pie-in-the-sky optimism does nothing to help this team. You can lend this analogy to anything - constructive criticism can make for better people. Blind back-patting to keep up a facade of positivity is just another form of lying to someone and to yourself.

[bird]

If one wants to understand why diverting money that could (should?) otherwise go to payroll to instead fund stadium costs, it's not hard. On the other hand, if one wants to avoid the point, and pretend the Pohlads are living up to their promised contribution, it's easy to be "confused."

You didn't answer a single one of my questions. Since I can't read your mind, I remain confused by it.

[PseudoSABR]

You didn't answer a single one of my questions. Since I can't read your mind, I remain confused by it.

In essence, people believe they were sold on a bill of goods when agreeing to fund a public stadium--that the Twins are reneging on the complicit promise that 51% of revenue would be allocated to payroll, rather than some portion of that going back to paying for stadium costs. I don't know to what extent that point is true, but i think it's a legitimate concern given how payroll has decreased significantly this year.

 

I think it's pretty easy to see why people would be put off by a payroll that has decreased by 20 % from last year. On it's surface, that doesn't look like investment into what has been a last place team, that looks like a cost cutting. I don't mean to speak for Chief, but you are being unfairly obtuse on this point, imo.

[snepp]

Help me out, snepps. Was this attacking an argument?

 

Simply put, one post included an insult on another member, the other didn't.

 

If you feel a warning wasn't justified (as opposed to receiving yet another infraction), you're welcome to bring it to the attention of an administrator.

[Riverbrian]

Owners Own... Players Play and Fans Fan... Everyone is looking for the best deal and that includes the fans. I'm not going to say that Pohlad should be thanked, worshiped or anything of the like but I'm really not sure how Pohlad is different than any of the other owners in Baseball. They are running a business and they are going to take advantage of you if they can. Just like Best Buy will if they can. They will do what it takes to sell an extra hot dog even if you don't need it. As for the current state of the Twins... It went south in 2010 and the recovery is going to take a little time. Meanwhile... It's a great opportunity for Hicks, Plouffe, Mastro, Gibson, Hendriks, Worley, Correia, Pelfrey, Diamond, Deduno, DeVries, Parmelee, Dozier, Florimon and others to prove they can play major league ball and be part of the organization moving forward... and some of these players just might be worth getting excited about.

[Guest USAFChief]

You didn't answer a single one of my questions. Since I can't read your mind, I remain confused by it.

I'm not as diplomatic as Pseudo, or as well spoken, but he said it well, read what he said. For the record, though, I'll repeat that IMO any "confusion" on your part is willful.

[Thrylos]

The haters equate being negative to being critical. And somehow, if you're not critical, you're an idiot. News flash, you can be critical and still be positive. You can say Hicks has work to do on his outfield throws and still say he's an exciting player. You can pick apart his game and still say he's as good as Span right now and has much higher upside. That's the fun of being a fan. No player is perfect. All players fail two thirds of the time. But are they good enough to help the team win over the long season? If so, and you can provide good reasons why, stating them doesn't make you an idiot. It makes you smarter than the haters who paint in black and white, and mostly black.

 

Agreed.

 

But using the word "haters" to describe people with different opinions, you automatically become like them, not?

 

Here is my beef with the Twins (and I really do not care about the payroll and I think that the Twins are blessed to have Mauer. Imagine if he signed somewhere else as a FA, there were going to be a revolution.... ) and their mainsteam fans:

 

a. This team has not won a title since 1991

b. This team was horrid in the Ryan years until the 00s, when it became mediocre. (Winning divisions and then 3 and out.)

c. Twins' fans think that this was "success" and the press propagated that like crazy. Even if it was better than total suckage, it was not winning World Series.

d. Because of that perceived "success" the press and the fans did not care to see fatal flawsin the way this team has been build and managed and the general cronyism that has been going on.

e. I am convinced that the Twins will not win a World Series again unless they make radical philosophical and personnel changes.

 

And that was before the last 2 seasons.

 

Now there are many more voices out there who actually start thinking that, gee, something is wrong being a doormat again. And, unlike Mr Reuss who thinks that 2011 was fully due to injuries and 2012 because of "bad pitching" (Gee, did the GM and the manager assemble that "bad pitching"?) they want their team to change so they can win (again - or at least not be a doormat.)

 

Thus the perceived anger.

 

I don't get the whole "hater" thing. If someone does not like Obama's healthcare policies or Bush's wars and publicly speaks about it, is he/she an American hater?

 

Nope.

 

We are all Twins' fans. Some of us are just sicker than other of what the people who are running our favorite team have done to it. That's all.

 

And I hope that the Twins' win it all this season. Really do. That is hope. But my gut says that there need to be changes for that to happen... hasn't happened in 21 going to 22 years now.

 

And, frakly, this is not "negative". It is critical (and actually positive.) If you are not at a desired state and you are not critical about the desired state you will never improve... And improvement is a good thing I think

 

Win Twins!

[bird]

I'm not as diplomatic as Pseudo, or as well spoken, but he said it well, read what he said. For the record, though, I'll repeat that IMO any "confusion" on your part is willful.

 

I did read what he said Chief. And your right, he IS more diplomatic. Bu I'm not the n being obtuse here. We can disagree and still understand each others point of view, and even respect it. I have very carefully considered your views, Chief. And Pseudo's too.

 

1. You think you were sold a bill of goods. Most on here agree. I get it that Ryan said he intended to bring in more than one quality starter. The Twins haven't broken a promise. Ryan simply fell short of his and our expectations. They never promised you they'd outbid for players on the free market because of Target Field. What they DID promise was that the stadium would make it easier to retain their own players. What they DID promise is that they'd invest more in their own system. They have NOT broken any promises. They just haven't lived up to your hopes and expectations.

 

2. TheTwins, and Jim Pohlad specifically, has said the team will spend about half of revenues on payroll, on average. No one promised to spend 51% of revenus each and every year. You may think they owe you an accounting of this. They don't. Payroll dollars have NOT been diverted to pay stadium costs That's a false statement. You can be miffed, but you're not entitled to a single thing you're not getting just because it's what you want and expect.

 

I'm not the one who's obtuse here, my brothers. Hell, if I go to the BMW dealer, I expect him to sell me a damn car. If he oversells a bit, I'm not going to be morally outraged. I get it. Ryan oversold. It was not smart. And I get that it looks real bad that payroll is down 20%. I get the outrage. I'm not defending that decision. But I'm not outraged. They have been beefing up the farm system for awhile. They just signed two of the top 25 international prospects. They said they were going to buid from within for the most part, and we're beginning to see the goods. Maybe, when the time comes to extend a few of these guys, they'll open up the coffers and spend MORE than 51% for awhile. You are welcome to conclude, right here and now, that this will never happen, or that Pohlad's a lying, cheating SOB, or whatever. Knock yourself out.

[Kwak]

Agreed.

 

But using the word "haters" to describe people with different opinions, you automatically become like them, not?

 

Here is my beef with the Twins (and I really do not care about the payroll and I think that the Twins are blessed to have Mauer. Imagine if he signed somewhere else as a FA, there were going to be a revolution.... ) and their mainsteam fans:

 

a. This team has not won a title since 1991

b. This team was horrid in the Ryan years until the 00s, when it became mediocre. (Winning divisions and then 3 and out.)

c. Twins' fans think that this was "success" and the press propagated that like crazy. Even if it was better than total suckage, it was not winning World Series.

d. Because of that perceived "success" the press and the fans did not care to see fatal flawsin the way this team has been build and managed and the general cronyism that has been going on.

e. I am convinced that the Twins will not win a World Series again unless they make radical philosophical and personnel changes.

 

And that was before the last 2 seasons.

 

Now there are many more voices out there who actually start thinking that, gee, something is wrong being a doormat again. And, unlike Mr Reuss who thinks that 2011 was fully due to injuries and 2012 because of "bad pitching" (Gee, did the GM and the manager assemble that "bad pitching"?) they want their team to change so they can win (again - or at least not be a doormat.)

 

Thus the perceived anger.

 

I don't get the whole "hater" thing. If someone does not like Obama's healthcare policies or Bush's wars and publicly speaks about it, is he/she an American hater?

 

Nope.

 

We are all Twins' fans. Some of us are just sicker than other of what the people who are running our favorite team have done to it. That's all.

 

And I hope that the Twins' win it all this season. Really do. That is hope. But my gut says that there need to be changes for that to happen... hasn't happened in 21 going to 22 years now.

 

And, frakly, this is not "negative". It is critical (and actually positive.) If you are not at a desired state and you are not critical about the desired state you will never improve... And improvement is a good thing I think

 

Win Twins!

 

Amen. The cronyism is endemic. The owners get their profits and see no reason to change. We were led to believe Ryan just "burnt-out in September 2007 and needed immediate replacement. Coincidental was a disappointing team result and a significantly higher payroll. Sure.

The assistant is promoted and voil`a Santana is traded and Hunter waved Bu-bye. Payroll builds for "the season" (2010) with veteran players added (I guess this was management's way of thanking the fans). Then disaster. The assistant is reassigned and Ryan has recovered sufficiently to resume as GM. Wow, he gets more effective medical care than the players.

Spin, spin, spin cut deadwood, make trades (more spin--"these guys are gonna be real good" [someday]). Scrape the dumpster, raid the leper colony, cross fingers, and proudly state "we will compete", "we're going to do things 'the right way' , but we don't want to 'block' anybody". Meanwhile, we're supposed to be "good fans", cheering everybody never complaining and "trust in Terry", because the twins "know what's best" [for us].

[Brock Beauchamp]

b. This team was horrid in the Ryan years until the 00s, when it became mediocre. (Winning divisions and then 3 and out.)

 

Not to pick nits, but... I'm going to pick nits.

 

Winnings divisions and losing in the first round of the playoffs is not mediocre. The Blue Jays were mediocre in the 2000s. Rarely really bad, rarely really good. Somewhere in the middle almost every season. That's mediocrity. Getting to the playoffs 50% of the time cannot qualify as "mediocre" by any definition of the word.

[TheLeviathan]

They have NOT broken any promises. They just haven't lived up to your hopes and expectations.

 

Nope, still being obtuse. (Or do I need to say "obtuse to me" lest I be threatened?) Twisting reality to fit your point of view and then claiming you aren't twisting reality is, almost by definition, obtuse.

 

Payroll dollars have NOT been diverted to pay stadium costs

 

You know that how?

 

You are welcome to conclude, right here and now, that this will never happen, or that Pohlad's a lying, cheating SOB, or whatever. Knock yourself out.

 

If this was truly welcome, you wouldn't be responding to anyone be it nick, Puck, chief, psuedo, or anyone else. But you've opted to take issue with those claims instead.

[Thrylos]

I'm not the one who's obtuse here, my brothers. Hell, if I go to the BMW dealer, I expect him to sell me a damn car. If he oversells a bit, I'm not going to be morally outraged. I get it. Ryan oversold. It was not smart. .

 

Better analogy would be a Chevy dealer, that was part of Mauer's contract

 

As far as the Pohlads are concerned:

 

- I am thankful for what Jim Pohlad did after he bought the team as far as getting smart baseball minds to run the organization

- I am thankful that Jim Pohlad spent the $ it took to bring in players to win the world series (twice) - and the fans rocked the dome too...

 

- I have no issue with the (allegedly) "publicly" financed stadium; financed with bonds that are paid by hotel and sales taxes; so if you don't want to stay in a hotel in Hennepin county or buy anything, you are not paying for the stadium

- I have no issue with the payroll or how much they are spending (and if they are spending it for Correia/Capps/Pavano, I'd rather see them spend less)

 

- I had a huge issue with the contraction. And not only with Pohlad but with Ryan as well. Ryan was wagging his tail when Pohlad did that. At that point, Pohlad was worse than Red McCombs. Sell your team if you don't like it.

- I have a huge issue that the Pohlads have practically spat in the face of the franchise history (which by agreement Griffith brought with him). It was maybe because a lot was part of the Griffith family and he wanted to cut the cord, but it is horrible to have a founding franchise of the American league, with plenty of Hall of Famers, including probably the best pitcher who ever threw a pitch and there is zip recognition of the fact. It is like the Twins' materialized from outer space into MN in 1960.

[Thrylos]

Not to pick nits, but... I'm going to pick nits.

 

Winnings divisions and losing in the first round of the playoffs is not mediocre. The Blue Jays were mediocre in the 2000s. Rarely really bad, rarely really good. Somewhere in the middle almost every season. That's mediocrity. Getting to the playoffs 50% of the time cannot qualify as "mediocre" by any definition of the word.

 

Alright. Semantics

 

Give it another context then: B instead of A+, how about that? Works? "Mediocre" a C?

If you are fine with being a B student, you will never do what you need to do to be an A student.

[Seth Stohs]

Point of clarification, did they spend their draft allotment last year? I thought they did not. Not that it mattered, I don't think. I think nothing they did would have changed had they decided to spend it, just curious about the facts, that's all. I don't think, for example, they would have taken a different player later on, that needed more money....

 

I think the only reason they didn't was because Mazzilli chose not to sign. (9th round pick)

[PseudoSABR]

Alright. Semantics

 

Give it another context then: B instead of A+, how about that? Works? "Mediocre" a C?

If you are fine with being a B student, you will never do what you need to do to be an A student.

Again, you seem to have this notion that you can build teams to consistently win in the playoffs. There's the big-buck teams, and then there's teams like Oakland, Tampa Bay, St. Louis, Milwaukee, and San Fran that seem to compete over the last decade or so, and really only St. Louis and San Fran have demonstrably better playoff success than the Twins. That's two teams you're reserving for your "A" score. There's nothing mediocre about five or six divisional titles in a period of ten or twelve years. There's like only five teams that have had that success without absurd payrolls.

[JB_Iowa]

Again, you seem to have this notion that you can build teams to consistently win in the playoffs. There's the big-buck teams, and then there's teams like Oakland, Tampa Bay, St. Louis, Milwaukee, and San Fran that seem to compete over the last decade or so, and really only St. Louis and San Fran have demonstrably better playoff success than the Twins. That's two teams you're reserving for your "A" score. There's nothing mediocre about five or six divisional titles in a period of ten or twelve years. There's like only five teams that have had that success without absurd payrolls.

 

I don't know that anyone is talking about CONSISTENTLY winning in the playoffs. But I (and a few others) darn well think that being competitive in the playoffs means winning some games, if not series. And my aging mind has a hard time remembering that last playoff win despite the numerous appearances in the 2000's.

[Thrylos]

Again, you seem to have this notion that you can build teams to consistently win in the playoffs. There's the big-buck teams, and then there's teams like Oakland, Tampa Bay, St. Louis, Milwaukee, and San Fran that seem to compete over the last decade or so, and really only St. Louis and San Fran have demonstrably better playoff success than the Twins. That's two teams you're reserving for your "A" score. There's nothing mediocre about five or six divisional titles in a period of ten or twelve years. There's like only five teams that have had that success without absurd payrolls.

 

Agreed. That's why there is a bell curve. Few A's, some Bs a bunch of Cs.