More Proof that the Twins Just Don't Care or Aren't Trying Very Hard

[Guest USAFChief]

Meh, the numbers were off, for some reason I thought he got 1 mil in arbitration (super 2 etc). They certainly aren't obligated to keep him on the roster, but at this point it's pretty clear they value Butera at least a bit, and he certainly isn't worth cutting (and eating the money) for yet another AAAA catcher. Yes, let's give a guy a contract for 700k then cut him before spring training even begins, just so we can bring in another catcher who most likely will never hack it in the major leagues, oh, by the way, we already have what is most likely the best catching duo in all of baseball in Mauer and Doumit.

The point is this: while there may be legitimate reasons not to try to upgrade--and it's dubious whether this would be an upgrade--the cost of Butera's contract isn't one of them. IF the Twins could upgrade at "backup to the backup catcher" they should. They are currently sporting an $80M payroll. Money isn't the reason they should or shouldn't do ANYthing, certainly not the cost of eating $700k at any rate.

[LaBombo]

The point is this: while there may be legitimate reasons not to try to upgrade--and it's dubious whether this would be an upgrade--the cost of Butera's contract isn't one of them. IF the Twins could upgrade at "backup to the backup catcher" they should. They are currently sporting an $80M payroll. Money isn't the reason they should or shouldn't do ANYthing, certainly not the cost of eating $700k at any rate.

 

+1. And it wouldn't have cost even 700,000 to replace Butera, at least in the case of Luis Martinez, would it? Martinez was waived three weeks before the Twins "avoided arbitration" (thank goodness, imagine the payday one of the worst hitters in the history of baseball may have scored there) by signing Butera. Assuming Martinez plays for the minimum, the Twins actually would've spent less.

[ThePuck]

Nothing is going to change this year. This is the year to find out what the Twins have and where they need replacements. I expect a great deal of roster turnover this year, trading deadline and maybe some spring training deals.

 

Isn't that what they were doing last year...isn't it clear what we need...the same thing we've needed for awhile now?

[diehardtwinsfan]

Why exactly is there so much love for Hermann?

[LimestoneBaggy]

Why exactly is there so much love for Hermann?

 

For comparison's sake. Hermann's bat projects higher than Martinez (PCL). He also brings positional flexibility (good for a guy who you are looking at for more than defense). Herrmann > Martinez, in my opinion. Therefore, I wouldn't have picked him up. Keep watching the waiver wire for something else.

 

If Mauer or Doumit goes down, I'm betting Herrmann gets a call. Besides, for the limited ABs Butera will have, his defense might actually adjust for only getting on base 1 out of every 10. It's at least possible.

[drjim]

I'll throw this out -does anyone know anything about Martinez other than he put up an OK OPS in a high offensive league as a 26 year old?

 

Chief is of course correct that 700k owed to Butera should have little or no bearing on a potential move but is anyone that sure that this guy represents that, especially on the defensive end?

[Boom Boom]

Maybe Martinez is better than Butera. Regardless, the Twins should just carry two catchers. I don't want either Martinez OR Butera on the 25-man.

[one_eyed_jack]

You can tell that people are ready for baseball when a transaction this insignificant ignites this much angst and argument.

 

Fear not, lads, we'll have real, substantive things to discuss soon enough.

[Ultima Ratio]

[video=youtube;9gSQg1i_q2g]

[Twins Twerp]

Terry Ryan doesn't care about black people.

 

Site your source. I will except wikipedia but you must use MLA format when citing said website.

[bteichr]

You also have to look at the DHs in baseball. Doumit is one of the better ones and has potential value at not one, but 2 positions (not the best catcher, I know).

 

Where is your evidence that Doumit is one of the better DHs in the league? I think he had a good year last year, but for me, the eye test wouldn't put him among that group. Now maybe his production would put him in that group, but you need to support your arguments. Just stating it doesn't make it so.

[Rosterman]

The evils of having a full 40-man roster. The next step is to wait for cuts that happen at spring training end, when you can free a spot with the DL, but then you might have to add a Rich Haren to the roster anyways.

 

Could the Twins cut and pass thru waivers Swarzak and Butera? Would both become free agents if unclaimed rather than accept a Rochester spot? Should the Twins not keep DeVries, Wood or Roeincke on the 40-man. Santana and Pinto expendable, put on the 40-man too early?

 

There isn't a lot of fodder. Yes, there are replacement value players, but they are all minimum-wage earners at the moment and no better or worse than what else is out there, some for a higher amount and same upside.

 

Always a tough call.

 

At some point, the Twins could maybe trade AAAA guys to another team for their AAAA guys, just a change of scenery, which is often helpful, or to keep some depth.

 

But right now, I sadly am falling into the funk of watching the Twins rebuild from within. Let's see what happens with spring training and where minor league prospects fare against minor league free agents.

[LaBombo]

Where is your evidence that Doumit is one of the better DHs in the league? I think he had a good year last year, but for me, the eye test wouldn't put him among that group. Now maybe his production would put him in that group, but you need to support your arguments. Just stating it doesn't make it so.

 

Doumit's 2012 .781 OPS would rank 4th among DH's with at least 300 PA's, behind Ortiz, Encarnacion, and Butler. Of course, if you compared Doumit to that group using the .858 OPS he posted while batting as a DH in 200 PA's, he moves into pretty much a tie for third with Butler.

 

Argument supported?

[bteichr]

Doumit's 2012 .781 OPS would rank 4th among DH's with at least 300 PA's, behind Ortiz, Encarnacion, and Butler. Of course, if you compared Doumit to that group using the .858 OPS he posted while batting as a DH in 200 PA's, he moves into pretty much a tie for third with Butler.

 

Argument supported?

 

It wasn't your argument, however it does provide some support for that statement.

[70charger]

Terry Ryan doesn't care about black people.

 

Thanks Kanye. This statement is indicative of the level of discourse happening in this thread. Maybe I should quote Ralph Wiggum next...

[jokin]

Between Roberts "being-31-years-old-ness" and Rodriguez' ".607 OPS from last year", which screams "long-term upgrade" to you more?

 

I didn't advocate this trade specifically, screaming, shouting or whispering. I pointed out that there are always opportunities to upgrade your roster if you care to do so, this being one of a presumed-many potential, and hopefully better, possibilities.

 

I also pointed out that, sadly, Roberts career OPS of .717 and Rodriguez's career OPS of .658 (I did notice how you cherry-picked one year to make your arguement, even so, that .607 OPS for 2012, would still outstrip everyone in the Twins MI except Carroll, and Rodriguez is 27 with more range) would be a major upgrade at the plate and even a net upgrade in the field, combined with Carroll as UI, over what the Twins currently project. I would say that Carroll is proof that Robert's age shouldn't necessarily be a deterrent to consider him in taking on Carroll's role as backup 2nd/3rd baseman when Carroll retires- plus you'd have a superior bat coming off the bench.

 

All things being equal, I would prefer a trade for a young, AAA-proven, blocked MI, that projects to hit up to .150 points OPS higher than Florimon and Escobar and retain hope that Rosario keeps progressing at 2B to become at least adequate at the position at the ML level (that still likely means 2015, at the earliest). I'll get back to you on that, or feel free to find them, as well.

[jokin]

Maybe Martinez is better than Butera. Regardless, the Twins should just carry two catchers. I don't want either Martinez OR Butera on the 25-man.

 

I am in 100% agreeent with your statement. But, since the Twins insist on the 3 catcher alignment, and the best argument for Butera appears to be that "he isn't going to play that much, anyway", I thought why not take a free shot at a guy who might actually provide some pop off the bench to attempt to raise their bench OPS above .600 and a more legit bat to free up the Twins in pulling the trigger on an in-season move on Doumit. This was the underlying thinking to the hypothesis that the Twins are in full "wait-and-see what we got" mode, instead of "trying" or "caring" to get better by having more than just Plan A in their handbook.

[jokin]

It wasn't your argument, however it does provide some support for that statement.

 

Which could have been looked up and confirmed by anyone, I thought it was apparent, especially to Twins fans, that Doumit was a very productive DH in 2012, with additional value to a team that wanted a position player.

[DaveW]

5 pages? **** I really miss BYTO

[ThePuck]

5 pages? **** I really miss BYTO

 

Then why do you keep coming back here? Somebody forcing you?

[jokin]

Um, you said something about proof, jokin. In your usual inflammatory, hateful style. Sincere advice: take this thread to a shrink and work through it with this professional. Do this with an honest mind and a softened heart. For your own sake and for the sake of those you affect.

 

And yet another "hear no evil, see no evil" shrink offering "sincere" medical advice without a license heard from. In the meantime, Rome continues to burn...

 

PS I'm struggling to find out what's "hateful" in noticing and identifying the overwhelming forces of inertia that surrounds this team and its obligatory BS-swallowing fanboys.

[The Wise One]

5 pages of thread with three and a half of them Jokin. Someone must be proud of themselves.

[jokin]

I can't get worked up over a player who had an age-26 OPS of .800 in a PCL hitter's haven. Put Drew Butera in Tucson, he'd hit about the same. And anyway upgrading your third-string catcher is about 25th priority on a last place team, and addressing such a need by dumpster-diving for players every other team has passed on is not what I want the team I root for doing unless they think they have spotted a real "pony in the pile".

 

And how are you certain of this? Give me examples of guys like Butera, who averaged .582 OPS in 2 years of AAA and then raised their average by .218 points going to the PCL and I will get on board the PCL effect being a valid comparison here.

 

Again, you over-simplified my analysis, I would like for the Twins to consider all options for upgrade, of which Mauer (eventual positon change), Doumit and Butera are parts of the same puzzle. I certainly don't know if Martinez is the pony in the pile, but it costs virtually nothing to find out. If Herrmann had torn the cover off the ball in September, we might all be looking at this differently. Giving Butera yet another scholarship (with a raise) and deciding to carry on their 40-man roster one catcher entering his 7th minor league year with the club and another catcher entering his 5th year as a minor leaguer- both of whom have not yet reached AAA- is a tad disappointing.

[jokin]

5 pages of thread with three and a half of them Jokin. Someone must be proud of themselves.

 

And someone else, who claims to be wise, must be proud of his content-free snark. Thanks for continuing to advance the discussion.

[The Wise One]

And someone else, who claims to be wise, must be proud of his content-free snark. Thanks for continuing to advance the discussion.

 

Did you finally notice that people post one liners on Twins Daily? Discussion implies a give and take of ideas. I shall leave it to your imagination as to what that means.

[DaveW]

Then why do you keep coming back here? Somebody forcing you?

It beats rubechat?plus there is a lot of solid discussion and good posters here, it's the bottom 20% that really drags **** down and makes it almost unreadable at times

[ThePuck]

It beats rubechat?plus there is a lot of solid discussion and good posters here, it's the bottom 20% that really drags **** down and makes it almost unreadable at times

 

So these guys go out of their way to create a great site and you keep wishing for sites of old? Seems a bit disrespectful...but whatever

[Don't Feed the Greed Guy]

And you and Dave just demonstrated how easy it is...!

 

Instead of asking the club to find ways to improve the product, you two laughingly close your eyes and pretend all is well, and, even if it isn't, anyone who offers suggestions to prod this moribund franchise back to life is castigated for caring.

 

Caring? Are you saying that those of us with patience to wait out a rebuild don't care? I find the title of this thread insulting. I'm sure that there are those who would like the Twins to emulate the Marlins, or other francises that microwave teams through signing multiple free agents. I think the Twins care about the final product. I remember the "Terrible Twins" headline in Sports Illustrated, back in 1983, when the Twins were rebuilding into a World Series Champion. I remember the 90's when the Twins traded Knoblauch and eventually build a team that competed through the 2000's. Do you remember this? This organization cares. They are taking the right steps to rebuild, and the addition of Terry Steinbach, and the retention of Butera are signs that the organization cares about catching. I agree with others. This is a silly post. If you wanted a reaction, you got it.

[Ultima Ratio]

It beats rubechat?plus there is a lot of solid discussion and good posters here, it's the bottom 20% that really drags **** down and makes it almost unreadable at times

 

Those refreshing, avant-garde homophobe threads really are the stately paragons of robust discussion.

[Top Gun]

Jon Heyman of CBS Sports reports that the Indians have signed free agent outfielder Michael Bourn to a four-year, $48 million contract with a vesting option for 2017.

 

That option vests for $12 million if Bourn reaches 550 plate appearances in 2016. It's another big offseason splash for the Indians, who have also acquired Nick Swisher, Trevor Bauer, Drew Stubbs, Jason Giambi, Mark Reynolds, Daisuke Matsuzaka, Matt Albers and Bryan Shaw. And they decided to keep shortstop Asdrubal Cabrera. Bourn will start in center field for Cleveland and should retain a high level of fantasy value. He hit .274/.348/.391 with nine homers, 57 RBI and 42 steals in 155 games last season for the Braves. The Indians will surrender their 2013 competitive balance pick, which would have been No. 69 overall.