Article: Is Lame Duck Gardy Good as Gone?

[LaBombo]

There's no denying the team has had a good run with Gardy as manager. If he gets scapegoated for a lousy 2013, that would be unlike the Twins and also unfair.

 

That being said, I was hoping the front office would consider going another direction after the Twins once again failed utterly and spectacularly to show up, let alone compete, in the 2010 postseason. Regardless of sample size, being swept three straight times and winning just three games in six series since the 2002 ALDS win is an absolutely dreadful record.

 

Gardenhire is a good manager, but he's not LaRussa. He's a good guy with an unhealthy fetish for futility infielders, considerable disdain for statistics, and decreasing patience with the kids, which is the thing that seemed to do in TK in the end. I think the thing I'd miss most about Gardenhire would be his relentless pursuit of the AL record for manager ejections, which he's on pace to do in about five more seasons.

[jmlease1]

I'm be more concerned for Gardy's fate if the Twins didn't have a bunch of young players ready to come through the doors in the next 2-3 years and knowing Gardy's preferences for crappy veterans over young talent. Or his poor game management. Or his poor batting order choices. Or his preference for putting a player's wants over what's best for the team.

 

Gardy's a good enough manager for a veteran team; his guys play hard for him, he doesn't embarrass the club, and he does a decent enough job with a pitching staff. But is he the guy you want to develop young talent? How much value is he really adding?

 

Of course, I'm also the guy who believes to this day he had a strong hand in on some of Bill Smith's worse personnel failures and then threw his GM under the bus.

[gunnarthor]

I'm be more concerned for Gardy's fate if the Twins didn't have a bunch of young players ready to come through the doors in the next 2-3 years and knowing Gardy's preferences for crappy veterans over young talent. Or his poor game management. Or his poor batting order choices. Or his preference for putting a player's wants over what's best for the team.

 

Gardy's a good enough manager for a veteran team; his guys play hard for him, he doesn't embarrass the club, and he does a decent enough job with a pitching staff. But is he the guy you want to develop young talent? How much value is he really adding?

 

Of course, I'm also the guy who believes to this day he had a strong hand in on some of Bill Smith's worse personnel failures and then threw his GM under the bus.

 

Go back and look at the teams he's managed. They are always young. There's this weird fan thought that he can't relate to young players but that's pretty much all he's had. Fans always remember Castro over Bartlett but forget that he rode Boof in 06 or Mijares in Sept 08. Look at all those starts he gave to young pitchers like Baker, Boof, Slowey, Lohse, Liriano, Silva, Santana. The Twins were constantly among the youngest teams in baseball, esp when they were a low payroll club. And under his watch, young guys won two MVPs, two Cy Youngs and the following young guys became all-stars - Guzman, Mays, Milton, Santana, Liriano, Mauer, Morneau, AJ and Hunter. And, when given talent, his teams won. I'm not worried about him coaching Hicks or Meyer.

[Fire Dan Gladden]

I don't believe the W/L record will be the primary factor in whether Gardy comes back. The last few years have seen the Twins go away from what was called the "Twins way". Things we have lost:

 

good defense

smart base running

small ball execution (ie sacrifices, hit-and-run)

 

The attention to the little things is what made the Twins way worked. They always played smart, efficient baseball. That has been lost over the last 2-3 years. If we don't see a marked improvement on those things, Gardy will be gone regardless of the record.

[JeffB]

So, if 2014-17 is the next era in Twins baseball, is Gardy the right guy to lead this incoming crop of rookies? Part of me thinks yes, and part of me thinks no. What do you think?

[ThePuck]

The Gardy supporters always say, look at what he was able to do all those years with little to no talent. Now they say, what do you expect him to do with so little to no talent? Anyone see a problem with that line of thinking? Also, they put the playoff record on the players, not Gardy's fault at all...but wait, if he gets credit for the division titles, cause he was a huge factor, why isn't he a huge factor in the playoff losses?

 

IMO, when looking at the talent he had and comparing it to the talent in the rest of our division, the team winning so may division titles wasn't really an unbeleivable accomplishment. Does he deserve some credit, sure. Did he work miracles? No. He inherited a 2nd place team and the team won three straight titles. They were already on their way. In 2006, he had the CY Young winner, the MVP, the batting champ, a GG CF who hit 30 HR, Cuddyer, knocking in 100+RBI and a top 3 closer. He had the talent. He didn't do a 2012 Buck Showalter

 

We've won the division twice in the last 6 years...one by winning less games than we did the year before when we didn't win the division, and the other in 2006, when Smith made some good moves to get actual talent in the middle IF. I predicted 94 wins before the season even started , on the Twins story boards, based on the talent we had. The should have won that many that year...and actually, should have won more if not for some bungling lineup moves by Gardy after clinching that took our momentum away going into the playoffs.

 

He was a pretty good manager when he first started...he really hasn't been that good for quite a few years. 2010 MOY award was a joke...seriously..the job Francona did that year with all those injuries in that division, was way more impressive.

 

My two cents, not worth much...

[ThePuck]

At the end of 2011 seasons, Gardy did an interview on ESPN 1500 where he said that players were tuning him out and getting defensive when he talked to them. He even mentioned the players being mad cause he would 'throw them under the bus' to the media. But, he put that on all the players...not anything he was doing wrong, but their issues. Sounds to me like he had lost the team...

[ashbury]

At the end of 2011 seasons, Gardy did an interview on ESPN 1500 where he said that players were tuning him out and getting defensive when he talked to them. He even mentioned the players being mad cause he would 'throw them under the bus' to the media. But, he put that on all the players...not anything he was doing wrong, but their issues. Sounds to me like he had lost the team...

 

I think you've put your finger on what is exactly at issue.

[one_eyed_jack]

I've always been a Gardy supporter. I think he's a damn good manager. Not an all-time great hall-of-fame manager, but a damn good one.

 

That said, it became pretty clear to me this year that it's time for a change. Seth is right, Gardy hasn't changed, but clearly, his message isn't getting through like it used to.

 

There was a time when the Twins actually did battle their tails off on a regular basis. It hasn't happened the last 2 years. A staleness has set in. Sometimes when the same voice has been speaking for too long, guys just stop listening. And each new generation of players thinks differently. He doesn't seem to connect with the Pouffes the way he did with the Koskies and Cuddyers.

 

 

Maybe that's all just a byproduct of having a bad team that loses a lot. Losing tends to bring out negativity in everyone.

 

But in any case, rather than make Gardy a lame duck, they should have just ripped off the band-aid, fired him, and started with a new managerial regime.

 

Gardy would get another job in a heartbeat, and it might be good for him too.

[johnnydakota]

I was thinking of Gardy when they signed Correia and all I could think of was it's time for Hawk Harrelson - He Gone

 

That's about right... Gardy has done a terrific job managing the Twins since he started in 2002. He's the same person and the same manager that won an AL Manager of the Year award and finished second five times. But if it's going to be guys like Correia in his rotation or guys like we saw last year, there's not a thing he can do. No manager alive, even Larussa or Maddon could have won with the Twins issues (injury and talent) the last two seasons. It's the way baseball works, and it may be a change for change sake is good, but it won't be because Gardy suddenly became a bad manager.

 

You like the musical chair mix and match, sitting the starters and using 147 different lineups each year?

[TheLeviathan]

Well, he's not getting much help to turn the tide. That's for sure.

[Kwak]

Apologies to "William". "We've come to bury 'Gardenhire', not praise him."

[LoganJones]

I would Imagine that Gardy has been given a short leash to prove he is going to do things differently. He probably admitted to the uppers that he felt he was responsible and was willing to change his approach. If the season starts out the same, and we're seeing the same 'it ain't me' act, he probably will be axed.

[CDog]

The Gardy supporters always say, look at what he was able to do all those years with little to no talent. Now they say, what do you expect him to do with so little to no talent? Anyone see a problem with that line of thinking?

 

Yes. Where in the world are all these Gardy supporters that "always say" that they had little to no talent?

[twinsnorth49]

I love all this, "he's good with the older guys", "he's no good with the young generation", "he's good with guys who are ready", "he's no good with the up and comers". Good stuff, all hearsay but good stuff. Nobody here knows Gardy's relationship with any of the players, I'm sure over the years he's had his ups and downs with many guys, which have consistently been a mix of young and old alike.

 

As far as him losing the room, why? Because he reaffirmed in some interviews what everybody saw during a game? Are we talking about how he pointed out the obvious when he referred to how crappy Dozier played some games and that he had to be more consistent? Or when he had the gall to tell everybody that Blackburn just had to bear down and get it done or when he observed that Hendriks had to quit f***ing around and throw goddamn strikes?

I don't think Gardy ever called out a veteran player and those are the guys who you need to worry about when losing a room, not a bunch of players who should thank their lucky stars they're even getting an opportunity and that many people would quickly forget as soon as the door hit them in the ass after they left. If those guys decided it wasn't worth listening to Gardy, then they need re-evaluate their stature in the game and realize how tenuous their hold is on a major league job, especially when they play for the Twins!

 

The team should be in a position to compete by 2014 and possibly contend by 2015-16, I think they can do that with or without Gardy, I'm fine either way.

[beckmt]

After a certain time managers, coaches, etc. get tuned out. Some of this can be contributed to the lack of fundamentals being taught in the minor leagues(big Bill Smith issue) and some is the younger guys need a different person to relate to. All in all in comes down to the improvement the Twins show in the next year. Gardy standing behind Rick Anderson probably did not help either.

[howeda7]

The handwriting has been on the wall for some time. In most MLB organizations the GM gets to choose his Field Manager and the Twins need to do the same (similar philosophies and better communications). It was basically announced that Gardenhire is gone when he didn't receive a contract extention--not even a for 1 year! But, I don't think Molitor will be the next manager.

 

Yeah. Terry Ryan should get to hire his own manager. He shouldn't be saddled with the guy hired by the GM in 2002. That guy was a moron.

[glunn]

The handwriting has been on the wall for some time. In most MLB organizations the GM gets to choose his Field Manager and the Twins need to do the same (similar philosophies and better communications). It was basically announced that Gardenhire is gone when he didn't receive a contract extention--not even a for 1 year! But, I don't think Molitor will be the next manager.

 

Yeah. Terry Ryan should get to hire his own manager. He shouldn't be saddled with the guy hired by the GM in 2002. That guy was a moron.

 

Good one!

[Kwak]

The handwriting has been on the wall for some time. In most MLB organizations the GM gets to choose his Field Manager and the Twins need to do the same (similar philosophies and better communications). It was basically announced that Gardenhire is gone when he didn't receive a contract extention--not even a for 1 year! But, I don't think Molitor will be the next manager.

 

Yeah. Terry Ryan should get to hire his own manager. He shouldn't be saddled with the guy hired by the GM in 2002. That guy was a moron.

 

Good one!

 

But the 2012 Gardy isn't the same guy as the 2002 Gardy!

[jokin]

I was thinking of Gardy when they signed Correia and all I could think of was it's time for Hawk Harrelson - He Gone

 

That's about right... Gardy has done a terrific job managing the Twins since he started in 2002. He's the same person and the same manager that won an AL Manager of the Year award and finished second five times. But if it's going to be guys like Correia in his rotation or guys like we saw last year, there's not a thing he can do. No manager alive, even Larussa or Maddon could have won with the Twins issues (injury and talent) the last two seasons. It's the way baseball works, and it may be a change for change sake is good, but it won't be because Gardy suddenly became a bad manager.

 

 

Absolutely correct. The hyper fan tends to micro-manage every move made and then views in light of their micro-management, which always shades the view towards the negative. When you look at his body of work he is one of the best managers in the game and is highly respected among baseball fans and personnel in other markets. He has not been provided talent the last couple of years and no one could manage that junk. BTW, same thing happens here, many want Ron Washington gone.

 

The problem with this analysis about "Good Guy" Gardy forget or neglect to mention that his fingerprints are on many of the disatrous personnel moves that were made which have led to this decline- Lohse, Garza, Hardy, lovin' himself a bevy of pitch-to-contact rag arms and below-replacement level infielders that resembled himself.....the list could go on.

[jokin]

After a certain time managers, coaches, etc. get tuned out. Some of this can be contributed to the lack of fundamentals being taught in the minor leagues(big Bill Smith issue) and some is the younger guys need a different person to relate to. All in all in comes down to the improvement the Twins show in the next year. Gardy standing behind Rick Anderson probably did not help either.

 

Cronyism is the downfall of many once-proud organizations, this org is still rife with drinking-buddies and untouchables (Bill Smith must be some kind of marketing genius or savant-level bean counter to have been retained after arguably has to be one of the worst GM tenures in MLB history).

[jokin]

Well, he's not getting much help to turn the tide. That's for sure.

 

What's for sure in my mind is that this is a Bay of Fundy-Tide-level set-up. Gone by All-Star break.

[Top Gun]

I would rather see Ryan and Pohlad gone.

[jokin]

It seems to me that professional sports team managers (or head coaches if you will) are better suited for certain types of teams: a) seasoned veterans up-and-comers c) new-kids-on-the-block etc. Gardy took over a team of up-and-comers and did quite well but when the team change to a different mix, well let's say not so well. The "new Twins" are going to be "new-kids-on-the-block" and I don't think these are the types of players that benefit from a "Gardenhire". The Twins are going to a "new blood" team--so get a new manager, not someone who is a relic from the past who will constantly remark "...we did things ...and won before...". They want someone who will say something like "...forget about the past, and its' losing way, we have new ideas that will put us onto 'winning ways'...", or something like that.

 

There's good reason Shakespeare's quote, "Past is Prologue", has remained embedded in the English language.

 

For evidence of the next hire, look at the 2 previous hires. This is how it is most likely to happen, a former journeyman, brief-playing member of the Twins, who began his coaching career in the Twins minor league system, working his way to the big club.

 

Kelly came in in 1986 at age 36 and Gardenhire came in in 2002 at age 44.

 

Even Ray Miller, Pohlad's first newly-hired manager, fits most of the description. Journeyman minor league player, hired at age 40.

 

The Twins would seem to want and need to hire a guy who is much closer in age to the kiddie corp which is about to be hitting the big league club en masse in 2014-15.

 

Now start lining up the suspect list, it isn't too extensive.

 

Mike Redmond would fit the bill perfectly (age 41).

[Top Gun]

I would rather see Ryan and Pohlad gone.

[ThePuck]

The Gardy supporters always say, look at what he was able to do all those years with little to no talent. Now they say, what do you expect him to do with so little to no talent? Anyone see a problem with that line of thinking?

 

Yes. Where in the world are all these Gardy supporters that "always say" that they had little to no talent?

 

All over the place. I've been having regular discussion on the Twins story boards and message boards at MLB dot com for years and years and there have been many over the years that can't blame Gardy for anything. They have said stuff like that. It's never his fault. I don't make stuff up, these are conversations had.

[ThePuck]

The Gardy supporters always say, look at what he was able to do all those years with little to no talent. Now they say, what do you expect him to do with so little to no talent? Anyone see a problem with that line of thinking?

 

Yes. Where in the world are all these Gardy supporters that "always say" that they had little to no talent?

 

All over the place. I've been having regular discussion on the Twins story boards and message boards at MLB dot com for years and years and there have been many over the years that can't blame Gardy for anything. They have said stuff like that. It's never his fault. I don't make stuff up, these are conversations had.

[gunnarthor]

The Gardy supporters always say, look at what he was able to do all those years with little to no talent. Now they say, what do you expect him to do with so little to no talent? Anyone see a problem with that line of thinking? Also, they put the playoff record on the players, not Gardy's fault at all...but wait, if he gets credit for the division titles, cause he was a huge factor, why isn't he a huge factor in the playoff losses?

 

IMO, when looking at the talent he had and comparing it to the talent in the rest of our division, the team winning so may division titles wasn't really an unbeleivable accomplishment. Does he deserve some credit, sure. Did he work miracles? No. He inherited a 2nd place team and the team won three straight titles. They were already on their way. In 2006, he had the CY Young winner, the MVP, the batting champ, a GG CF who hit 30 HR, Cuddyer, knocking in 100+RBI and a top 3 closer. He had the talent. He didn't do a 2012 Buck Showalter

 

We've won the division twice in the last 6 years...one by winning less games than we did the year before when we didn't win the division, and the other in 2006, when Smith made some good moves to get actual talent in the middle IF. I predicted 94 wins before the season even started , on the Twins story boards, based on the talent we had. The should have won that many that year...and actually, should have won more if not for some bungling lineup moves by Gardy after clinching that took our momentum away going into the playoffs.

 

He was a pretty good manager when he first started...he really hasn't been that good for quite a few years. 2010 MOY award was a joke...seriously..the job Francona did that year with all those injuries in that division, was way more impressive.

 

My two cents, not worth much...

 

The Gardy haters always say, "look at all that talent, he should've won more." Now that he has no talent they say, "why isn't he winning more?" Anyone see a problem with this line of thinking? He gets no credit for the division titles, since he was only competing against the AL Central but he gets the blame for losing in the first round (quick fact, the Twins avg 92 wins when they lost in the first round, their opponents avg 101 regular season wins. But, yeah, playoffs are a crap shoot).

 

He was given all this young talent that turned itself into Cy Young winners and MVPs but he can't handle young players. Did you see how he managed one group of young players and then the nucleus completely changed? And those young guys still won? We can't have that kind of track record around more young guys. We should hire Molitor b/c, even though he's failed in his few coaching attempts, he's a winner and that'll rub off on those young guys.

 

He didn't win nearly enough after Santana and Hunter left. He had to play a lineup that heavily featured Young and Gomez and he only made it 163 games and he lost to a team with twice the payroll. What a crock. Then his 2010 team makes it to the playoffs with 100m contract (sure, maybe 25m was on the DL at the time of the playoffs but other managers dealt with injuries and didn't make the playoffs. Those were the good managers. I mean, look, they had to play the AL East and we know that makes things harder. We don't have to concern ourselves with payroll or money spent on draftees/development. Twins and Red Sox were the same except one team played the Yankees more and we played KC.

 

Gardy has Machiavellian powers! Look at the players that he ran out of town. He hated Garza so he made sure he was traded for nothing. He hated Lohse, most of whose best seasons happened to come in MN. He never gave Humber a chance and he threw a perfect game. And Slowey! For the love all that was holy, Slowey! Slowey could read books and Gardy hated that. He never gave him a chance. But he has gay sex with Punto and Blackburn so they get to stay. Gardy haters are turning into birthers.

[ThePuck]

The truth is somewhere in the middle...

[ThePuck]

The truth is somewhere in the middle...I have criticized him on some things and I have defended him on others...case by case basis