Proposal for the St. Paul Saints to be an affiliated MiLB team

[Nine of twelve]

This piece is from the Strib website. Source is Baseball America.

 

https://www.startribune.com/st-paul-saints-season-postponed-until-at-least-early-july/569821132/

[Nine of twelve]

If this ever did come to pass I would think the team would have to be a Twins affiliate. I don't see a team in St. Paul drawing enough to be viable at the AAA level, but I could envision a Midwest League team there.

[BobAzar]

I dont know enough about minor league stadiums and facilities, but what level is CHS FIeld at? A, AA, AAA?

[Monkeypaws]

Looking at some numbers from 2019, the Saints averaged about 8,000 per game, which puts them in the top 10 for all affiliated minor league teams. 

 

https://ballparkdigest.com/2019/09/23/2019-milb-sc-indy-attendance-by-average/

[MN_ExPat]

"If both sides agree, it would mean as many as 42 current minor league teams would be lopped off by eliminating short-season and Rookie ball"

 

This is interesting in a "I don't think I like this way".   We (I) clearly don't have all the info on the proposal, but if this is done, how will they      phase in draftees? 

 

By the end of their respective seasons, HS and College players have often played a ton of games by this point.    Do they plan on just throwing them into A Ball?

 

College players could probably make the A ball transition more smoothly, but HS kids?  Even the most advanced ones could conceivably have a much more difficult time.    We shall see I guess. 

[Nine of twelve]

 

 

"If both sides agree, it would mean as many as 42 current minor league teams would be lopped off by eliminating short-season and Rookie ball"

 

This is interesting in a "I don't think I like this way".   We (I) clearly don't have all the info on the proposal, but if this is done, how will they      phase in draftees? 

 

By the end of their respective seasons, HS and College players have often played a ton of games by this point.    Do they plan on just throwing them into A Ball?

 

College players could probably make the A ball transition more smoothly, but HS kids?  Even the most advanced ones could conceivably have a much more difficult time.    We shall see I guess. 

I probably don't like it either, but the real question is how this move would eventually affect the major league teams. Regarding HS players, I'm sure teams will continue to draft them. For development of such players it would make more sense to me to eliminate not the rookie teams but rather the low-A teams.

[Nine of twelve]

 

Looking at some numbers from 2019, the Saints averaged about 8,000 per game, which puts them in the top 10 for all affiliated minor league teams. 

 

https://ballparkdigest.com/2019/09/23/2019-milb-sc-indy-attendance-by-average/

Hmm. Maybe we could have the Twins AAA affiliate there. That would hold more interest for me than an indy league team. I might even consider going to a game.

[rdehring]

 

Hmm. Maybe we could have the Twins AAA affiliate there. That would hold more interest for me than an indy league team. I might even consider going to a game.

If the Saints were a Twins AAA team, I would go to more games there than Target Field.  Only problem is we are too far west for the International League and I really don't like PCL with so many of the teams out west.  Perhaps if this comes to pass, they will rework all these leagues and there will be a third AAA league made up of teams from the central part of the country.

 

All the young high school kids would play for their GCL team.  If I recall what was said when this was first made public, the Appy League will cease to exist, but the GCL would continue.

[Tomj14]

I haven't been following this closely, but is reducing the minor leagues teams from 160 - 120 because of Covid? or a solution to help help reduce the cost of minor league baseball or something else?

 

To have a Twins minor league team in the Cities would be great, seems like a bad idea for a mid market major league team, because if they aren't good baseball fans love the promise of prospects and the minor league team could see more fans.

If it has to do with covid, I don't see the logic or difference in having 160 teams or 120.

[Nine of twelve]

 

If the Saints were a Twins AAA team, I would go to more games there than Target Field.  Only problem is we are too far west for the International League and I really don't like PCL with so many of the teams out west.  Perhaps if this comes to pass, they will rework all these leagues and there will be a third AAA league made up of teams from the central part of the country.

 

I don't think St. Paul would be bad in terms of location, especially if we resurrect the American Association. Look how far Tacoma is from the other teams in the PCL. (And that includes Memphis and Nashville, for Pete's sake!) It would sure seem a lot better to me if there were three 10-team leagues, one east, one central and one west.

I'm starting to get on board with this idea. Of course that means one other city somewhere will be out a AAA team but oh well. Franchises come and franchises go.

[rdehring]

 

I haven't been following this closely, but is reducing the minor leagues teams from 160 - 120 because of Covid? or a solution to help help reduce the cost of minor league baseball or something else?

 

To have a Twins minor league team in the Cities would be great, seems like a bad idea for a mid market major league team, because if they aren't good baseball fans love the promise of prospects and the minor league team could see more fans.

If it has to do with covid, I don't see the logic or difference in having 160 teams or 120.

If I recall MLB was proposing this change before COVID had shut everything down.  Don't know their reasons, but gotta believe it is partially cost.  Realistically, with most teams having well over 200 players in the system, including the DSL, there are many merely filling slots with almost zero chance of ever making the major leagues or even AA. 

 

So a reduction probably makes sense.  Unfortunately, towns like Elizabethton are going to take a real hit with their baseball fans facing a lifestyle change.

[USNMCPO]

 

I dont know enough about minor league stadiums and facilities, but what level is CHS FIeld at? A, AA, AAA?

I read that CHS Field is a "A" stadium and that to make it a AAA stadium would "ruin" the looks of the stadium. I think it was Pat Reusse that said that so take it for what it is worth.

[Trov]

I doubt the Saints will want to to join the affiliated, as the article said they like being independent.  Right now, they have one of the best stadiums if not the best in their league, part of why MLB would like to add them is my guess.  If I recall, not that I follow much, but the last two all star games in the league were at CHS field. 

 

I bet if they did get a Twins team attached, natural to assume they would, it would increase attendance most likely, but it would take away much of what the saints like to do.  One, their manager and coaching staff would be gone, along with all their players.  No more open try outs.  I would bet much of the in game things they like to do would be gone too. 

 

I personally would not want AAA affiliate, although I am sure Twins would want that, because then it would be a short drive to call guys up, if they are both home.  The players would most likely enjoy that too, no need to live in a hotel room, but you could get a home even if you would expect to spend much time at AAA.  Might even get more players willing to sign for that reason.  There would be a ton of bonuses for the Twins, I would think, but the Saints would have to agree, and Mr. Veck likes to do things his way and I doubt he would want to answer to the Twins for things. 

 

I lived in a AA town for 3 years, went to a few games.  I knew many of the players as I followed the Twins minor league and would go to games when, at the time, Rock Kats were in town.  I saw many current MLB players and was fun.  The stadium was lessor than CHS field in my opinion too.  

 

In terms of the cutting down the teams, this was in talks months ago as many teams have decided they do not need as many as they have.  Some have as much as 8 teams.  I personally do not see a need for short season ball.  Specifically the non-gulf coast/cactus league short season.  I doubt it would have much affect on who is drafted, it would most likely just cut down the amount of draft picks. 

[theBOMisthebomb]

This would ruin the Saints experience to go affiliated. The Saints would already be in the top 10 for all of affiliated MiLB attendance wise at 8,000+ per game. CHS is already a top notch stadium fit for AAA. If they become the Twins AAA affiliate they would have to probably double seating capacity to handle the Twins fans filtering over to the east. For me, having the Saints go affiliated has zero appeal. I already go to many Saints game and enjoy the zany atmosphere and not really caring if the Saints win (though they usually do win). Seeing a Twins lite AAA version does nothing for me. Why not just go to Target Field instead?

[rdehring]

The initial take is that the Saints wouldn't be interested.  But does the economics push cause them to give this a longer thought?  Currently, the Saints pay all player salaries and those of the coaching staff.  If they were affiliated, the big league club would pick up all that cost.  Thinking that attendance would stay the same, that's a lot of additional profit for the Saints.

[Nine of twelve]

 

This would ruin the Saints experience to go affiliated. The Saints would already be in the top 10 for all of affiliated MiLB attendance wise at 8,000+ per game. CHS is already a top notch stadium fit for AAA. If they become the Twins AAA affiliate they would have to probably double seating capacity to handle the Twins fans filtering over to the east. For me, having the Saints go affiliated has zero appeal. I already go to many Saints game and enjoy the zany atmosphere and not really caring if the Saints win (though they usually do win). Seeing a Twins lite AAA version does nothing for me. Why not just go to Target Field instead?

I respect your opinion, but substituting the word "change" for "ruin" makes your statement more accurate. I think it's very feasible to continue most of the things that make for a "zany atmosphere" whether the team is affiliated or independent, but there's nothing to say that any changes would be for the worse. And if you feel an affiliated team would be so popular that "they would have to probably double the seating capacity" that seems like a good thing to me.

[Nine of twelve]

 

The initial take is that the Saints wouldn't be interested.  But does the economics push cause them to give this a longer thought?  Currently, the Saints pay all player salaries and those of the coaching staff.  If they were affiliated, the big league club would pick up all that cost.  Thinking that attendance would stay the same, that's a lot of additional profit for the Saints.

I don't know the ins and outs of the contracts between Major League franchises and their affiliates, but I'm sure the affiliates don't get all the profit. Even so I would think an agreement could be negotiated that would satisfy Saints ownership.

[Nine of twelve]

 

I personally would not want AAA affiliate, although I am sure Twins would want that, because then it would be a short drive to call guys up, if they are both home. 

My guess is that the teams would not be home at the same time very often. I would think both teams would want to minimize the number of times they played at home on the same day.

[Cap'n Piranha]

I assume as long as the Twins have complete control over anything that involves the players, they would not care at all what the Saints do otherwise.

 

As concerns eliminating MiLB teams, I also think part of why teams want to do this is to pivot to more academies in the Caribbean and Central America.  You could have A, AA, AAA, and then a short season league designed mostly for new draftees.  If the Twins had their short season and A team in Ft Myers, and their AAA team in St Paul, Pensacola is the only affiliate not very much in the MLB team's orbit--much better for aligning and directing player development and support.

[Monkeypaws]

Unfortunately the PCL would be the only real fit. The Saints are too big for the Midwest League, AA doesn't come near the midwest, and the International League stops in Indianapolis. 

[Nine of twelve]

 

Unfortunately the PCL would be the only real fit. The Saints are too big for the Midwest League, AA doesn't come near the midwest, and the International League stops in Indianapolis. 

Not necessarily. If St. Paul gains a AAA franchise, some other city would lose one. If it were a current IL city that lost out St. Paul could just replace that team.

[Parker Hageman]

Back in August 2015, we did a bit at CHS Field where we tried to catch "home run balls" while holding a beer. 

 

Shameless plug...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

 

Afterward, we chatted with a Saints GM who has since moved on from the team. He told us that the field plans actually include expansion opportunities for the third base line (extending that suite/second deck down the left field line) and plans to add bleacher seating where the berm currently is. The Saints were 100% content with the product but they knew during the planning process that there could be a future where they jump into the Midwest League or even an AAA/PCL realignment (Des Moines, Omaha, Wichita, and St. Paul might be a plausible division grouping) and need more seating. 

 

 

[JosiahDeBoer]

 

Not necessarily. If St. Paul gains a AAA franchise, some other city would lose one. If it were a current IL city that lost out St. Paul could just replace that team.

 

 

That would still be quite the travel schedule though, with no road games closer than 3 states away, and some all the way out to the East coast. I'm not sure that that's feasible.

[Nine of twelve]

 

That would still be quite the travel schedule though, with no road games closer than 3 states away, and some all the way out to the East coast. I'm not sure that that's feasible.

If Memphis and Nashville teams can make a PCL schedule work then St. Paul can certainly do the same. And IL travel would be easier than PCL travel.

[biggentleben]

 

I don't know the ins and outs of the contracts between Major League franchises and their affiliates, but I'm sure the affiliates don't get all the profit. Even so I would think an agreement could be negotiated that would satisfy Saints ownership.

The costs would not be terribly far off from what was suggested in the post you're replying to, however, teams put the burden on the city/affiliate to keep the stadium at the MLB team's particular level of standard with technology and player/staff accommodations and such. All that, and there is no obligation for any one major league team to stay beyond 2-3 years with an affiliate, hence the affiliate shuffle every two years as teams get affiliates to offer profit sharing, new stadiums, etc. in order to attract a big league club.

 

In other words, the Saints could have a team in 2021 and not in 2024, and that'd be absolutely "normal" for affiliated ball. It'd make sense to stay away for a successful independent franchise.

[Nine of twelve]

 

The costs would not be terribly far off from what was suggested in the post you're replying to, however, teams put the burden on the city/affiliate to keep the stadium at the MLB team's particular level of standard with technology and player/staff accommodations and such. All that, and there is no obligation for any one major league team to stay beyond 2-3 years with an affiliate, hence the affiliate shuffle every two years as teams get affiliates to offer profit sharing, new stadiums, etc. in order to attract a big league club.

 

In other words, the Saints could have a team in 2021 and not in 2024, and that'd be absolutely "normal" for affiliated ball. It'd make sense to stay away for a successful independent franchise.

This is good and interesting insight. Do you know if teams ever agree to longer-term contracts? Does anyone know if the Twins are engaging in any kind of pursuit of St. Paul as an affiliate?

[biggentleben]

 

This is good and interesting insight. Do you know if teams ever agree to longer-term contracts? Does anyone know if the Twins are engaging in any kind of pursuit of St. Paul as an affiliate?

 

Basically, your biggest shot of a long-term affiliation is if the big league club decides to buy the affiliate. Then the affiliate is no longer community-owned, though. It's now the big league club's team. The only thing the town offers at that point is a stadium to host games.

 

There can be longer contracts of 3-5 years instead of 2-3 years, but that's about as crazy as it typically gets.

[DocBauer]

"If both sides agree, it would mean as many as 42 current minor league teams would be lopped off by eliminating short-season and Rookie ball"

 

This is interesting in a "I don't think I like this way".   We (I) clearly don't have all the info on the proposal, but if this is done, how will they      phase in draftees? 

 

By the end of their respective seasons, HS and College players have often played a ton of games by this point.    Do they plan on just throwing them into A Ball?

 

College players could probably make the A ball transition more smoothly, but HS kids?  Even the most advanced ones could conceivably have a much more difficult time.    We shall see I guess.

 

Great post!

 

Kind of went over this in another thread, but still, the Twins and about half the ML teams have 6 affiliates from low rookie, high rookie, low A, high A, AA and then AAA. Short season, as I understand it, is sort of an "extra" quasi rookie low A level. There can't be more than 10-12 of them. Fine, get rid of them. But eliminating 42 makes ZERO SENSE!

 

No rookie ball? Where do your HS, DR and later round college players go for introduction? "Sink or swim guys, you're going straight to low A ball. Wish you the best! What were you thinking of doing the rest of your life when baseball didn't turn out?"

 

At that point, you are telling every single HS prospect who isn't s top 1-5 round pick to either go to college or hang it up. You're saying the same thing to a majority of Latin players of the same age who aren't the cream of the crop bonus babies. And even then, what ML team wants to give $100K up to a $1M+ to sink or swim for any player at A ball the first time they hit the states?

 

Can you imagine the Twins signing Kepler, Rosario and Sano as teenagers and then sending them straight to Cedar Rapids and "wishing them luck?" I can just about guarantee you Arraez wouldn't be a Twin right now unless he was a 21yo playing in the Mexican league and signed to a contract.

 

This is just stupid. Might as well make the ML draft 10 rounds of college players, a few choice HS players, and then scour the independent leagues and Mexican leagues for guys to bring up for A ball.

 

No, the product on the field won't suffer at all will it? Might as well start looking at softball league players as options.

[Monkeypaws]

My prime beef with this whole plan, correct me if I'm wrong, was it seemed to be MLB's reaction/solution after they had egg on their faces when the news broke about how poorly many minor league baseball players were paid. 

[USNMCPO]

 

Unfortunately the PCL would be the only real fit. The Saints are too big for the Midwest League, AA doesn't come near the midwest, and the International League stops in Indianapolis. 

I wonder if there wouldn't be a major realignment of leagues, perhaps even creating a whole new league. MLB is going so far, I would not be surprised to see them create the exact environment that they want.