Indians tanking but will still win the division?

[SomeGuy]

 

Sorry. How is this considered tanking?

Just a buzz word.  The Marlins and Orioles are probably the only teams that can claim a true "tanking" label this year.  Royals are a consideration but they put together something of a game plan for this season.

[jkcarew]

 

100%, they can shed a ton of $$ in the next few years so unless they're working on extensions it makes zero sense to not push all in for this year and next 1-2 seasons. Unfortunately I think the Twins fall into the "regret not spending," category too. The two teams are like Minnesotans at a 4-way, each waiving the other through to take the division.

It's a good analogy...and probably accurate. But, for some words in defense of Cleveland's FO, I'll take the analogy further...

 

Each is waving the other through to get demolished by one of the multiple oncoming locomotives (Yankees, Boston, Houston) coming fast on the railroad tracks.

 

That's not an excuse for the Twins, who should be desperate to win...ANYTHING. But I do think it's a bit of an excuse for Cleveland. In recent years they've been bumped, rammed, finally demolished by the locomotive. They weren't going to turn their F-250 pickup into a locomotive in one off-season, so why care (much anyway) if someone else gets broadsided by the locomotive for a year or two. Meanwhile, the equation can be different for them...they think...in 2020 or 2021 (and it's not like they can't flip some/all of that pitching if they want to, or feel it's wise, to shoot for a deferred window). Division titles mean nothing to teams that have won them frequently and recently.

[Mike Sixel]

 

It's a good analogy...and probably accurate. But, for some words in defense of Cleveland's FO, I'll take the analogy further...

 

Each is waving the other through to get demolished by one of the multiple oncoming locomotives (Yankees, Boston, Houston) coming fast on the railroad tracks.

 

That's not an excuse for the Twins, who should be desperate to win...ANYTHING. But I do think it's a bit of an excuse for Cleveland. In recent years they've been bumped, rammed, finally demolished by the locomotive. They weren't going to turn their F-250 pickup into a locomotive in one off-season, so why care (much anyway) if someone else gets broadsided by the locomotive for a year or two. Meanwhile, the equation can be different for them...they think...in 2020 or 2021 (and it's not like they can't flip some/all of that pitching if they want to, or feel it's wise, to shoot for a deferred window). Division titles mean nothing to teams that have won them frequently and recently.

 

I've seen this argument a few times now, why bother trying if you are an AL team that isn't one of those three? I don't like that argument.

[Jim Hahn]

I've seen this argument a few times now, why bother trying if you are an AL team that isn't one of those three? I don't like that argument.

You are right, it is not a good argument for not trying. The Twins in 1987 may not of been one of the 10 best teams in baseball that year. They certainly weren't considered that good before the season started. Still, it would be hard to claim they went all in that year either. Mostly they recycled a bunch of over the hill guys trying to supplement a pretty good core.

 

One hopes that if this team shows a pulse in July, they will be willing to push a chip or two into the pot to make a run. Just because there are 3 teams that look much better on paper in March doesn't mean there isn't a chance to do damage in October.

[Brock Beauchamp]

i think you should go ahead and do that. Make sure to use your Cleveland Indians mousepad and make sure to wear your Terry Francona signed 2016 world series loser jersey while you do that.

Sick burn.

[ashbury]

Sick burn.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I've seen this argument a few times now, why bother trying if you are an AL team that isn't one of those three? I don't like that argument.

The thing is that Cleveland could easily have scored a few hitters on the relative cheap and made their team better. Yeah, it would have pushed their payroll a bit but if you do three or under year deals, that’s kind of the point of a push. It’s not as if their farm system is going to keep feeding them through the attrition of free agency.

[jkcarew]

 

I've seen this argument a few times now, why bother trying if you are an AL team that isn't one of those three? I don't like that argument.

You (or I) don't have to like the argument for it to be valid.

 

Having said that, I'm specifically saying it's NOT valid for the Twins...and most other clubs, for that matter. But I think for Cleveland, it's valid. They've seen the competition first hand in the post season. They are not currently in the same universe. Why would being better than the 2019 version of the Minnesota Twins be a priority for them? It seems reasonable that their goals are different at this point and their organization has earned the benefit of the doubt if they think their window is not 2019.

[Channing1964]

I don't think recognizing what is clearly a future Hall of Fame manager makes anyone a Cleveland homer.

Im sorry if I dont see this as a forum to enamor our number one rivals at this point in time. IMO Joe Mauer is a first ballot hall of famer too but i dont go on the Indians talk site(or whatever they call it) and blah blah blah about how great the Twins Organization is. Its up to you if you wanna let it go. There is a place for everyone to voice their opinions. I dont have to be a Francona fan if I dont see the brilliance and greatness that you apparently do.

[Channing1964]

And for the record, I do respect the Cleveland Indians. I just think the national media is so in love with what they have done they fail to recognize them for what they are today. a .500 ball club that maybe is too arrogant for their own good. From the top down. I just hope we can give them a little reality check. If anyone remembers, last year at one point we were 7-2 against them. Lets hope the Falvines dont pull the plug too early this year. Lets hope they dont have to consider it as an option.

[jkcarew]

 

You are right, it is not a good argument for not trying. The Twins in 1987 may not of been one of the 10 best teams in baseball that year.

One hopes that if this team shows a pulse in July, they will be willing to push a chip or two into the pot to make a run. Just because there are 3 teams that look much better on paper in March doesn't mean there isn't a chance to do damage in October.

I see the 1987 Twins scenario come up a lot. But, it's completely different with the modern playoff format.

 

The point is with the '87 Twins..they didn't have to play the 2nd or 3rd best to get to the WS. They had to get hot/lucky in one series. In practice and statistically, it's completely different with the modern playoff format to expect multiple playoff wins as underdogs (and to potentially throw in an additional WC 'play-in' game)...and even more so with the extreme top-heavy nature of the AL.

 

Does it mean the Twins should not go for it? Of course not. The Twins need to get good, regardless, before they can get great. Cleveland? They became good and hit a wall. There might be a legitimate argument for them to hit pause...or at least it's a different call than what the Twins faced, IMO.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

And for the record, I do respect the Cleveland Indians. I just think the national media is so in love with what they have done they fail to recognize them for what they are today. a .500 ball club that maybe is too arrogant for their own good. From the top down. I just hope we can give them a little reality check. If anyone remembers, last year at one point we were 7-2 against them. Lets hope the Falvines dont pull the plug too early this year. Lets hope they dont have to consider it as an option.

with the best rotation in baseball Cleveland can still easily be a 90 win team. One TJ can flush all that down the tubes, however and their lineup is going to stink even after Lindor comes back.

 

If the Twins development machine can pull off some Miracles with Gonsalves, Littell, et al and/or the FO can swing a trade on some pitching, the Twins could absolutely make a run at the division.

 

Cleveland is high at the top end but very shallow on talent and injuries will be very apparent.

[Channing1964]

I see the 1987 Twins scenario come up a lot. But, it's completely different with the modern playoff format.

 

The point is with the '87 Twins..they didn't have to play the 2nd or 3rd best to get to the WS. They had to get hot/lucky in one series. In practice and statistically, it's completely different with the modern playoff format to expect multiple playoff wins as underdogs (and to potentially throw in an additional WC 'play-in' game)...and even more so with the extreme top-heavy nature of the AL.

 

Does it mean the Twins should not go for it? Of course not. The Twins need to get good, regardless, before they can get great. Cleveland? They became good and hit a wall. There might be a legitimate argument for them to hit pause...or at least it's a different call than what the Twins faced, IMO.

yep, and i still cant understand how they let us snatch up Gonzalez right under their noses when they needed him worse than we did. Mark my words, Houston is going to miss him way more than they care to admit as well. Already they are talking about Correa missing a bunch of time. Sano may have a tough time getting his job back from Astidillo and Gonzalez.

[KirbyDome89]

 

You (or I) don't have to like the argument for it to be valid.

 

Having said that, I'm specifically saying it's NOT valid for the Twins...and most other clubs, for that matter. But I think for Cleveland, it's valid. They've seen the competition first hand in the post season. They are not currently in the same universe. Why would being better than the 2019 version of the Minnesota Twins be a priority for them? It seems reasonable that their goals are different at this point and their organization has earned the benefit of the doubt if they think their window is not 2019.

I think the fact the argument isn't received well is because it isn't particularly valid. 

 

If Cleveland isn't in the same universe as the elite AL teams than neither are the Twins. The logic you're using is being applied inconsistently.   

 

Cleveland has Salazar, Bauer, and Kluber for this season and next if they so choose. If they're truly not interested in trying to match the upper echelon AL teams, or even beat MN for the division title, then why not sell off some or all of those arms and hit the reset button? Their window is this season and next season barring any of the above signing extensions. It makes absolutely no sense to burn a year of their pitching staff with an eye towards a future that is anything but guaranteed. 

[jkcarew]

 

If Cleveland isn't in the same universe as the elite AL teams than neither are the Twins. The logic you're using is being applied inconsistently.  

No it isn't...and that's the point.

 

It makes some sense that a team that has won a lot recently (but run into a wall in the post-season) would look at "going for it" in 2019 differently than an organization that has done basically nothing for a decade. The spot they find themselves in currently may be the same...but it doesn't mean the perspective of what that spot means/represents is the same to both. It probably isn't.

[gocgo]

I don't buy the tanking theory either.  I think that in today's analytical game, they mapped out how many they needed to win and how to get there.  It's a long season and they will contend with that pitching staff IF the pitchers stay healthy.  Where I think it gets really interesting is at the trade deadline if they are out of it.  Granted, a lot would have to go wrong, but those pitchers will be highly sought after if healthy.  Should be interesting.  I like where the Twins are right now.  Depth concerns me.  Stay healthy boys!

[Channing1964]

I think the fact the argument isn't received well is because it isn't particularly valid.

 

If Cleveland isn't in the same universe as the elite AL teams than neither are the Twins. The logic you're using is being applied inconsistently.

 

Cleveland has Salazar, Bauer, and Kluber for this season and next if they so choose. If they're truly not interested in trying to match the upper echelon AL teams, or even beat MN for the division title, then why not sell off some or all of those arms and hit the reset button? Their window is this season and next season barring any of the above signing extensions. It makes absolutely no sense to burn a year of their pitching staff with an eye towards a future that is anything but guaranteed.

its either one of two things. They think that they will be in range at the deadline to trade some chips and make a serious title run, or....they have decided it's too expensive to keep all these guys and lose in the first round every year. I dont know who owns them but we all know how crappy the beginning stages of a rebuild are. The Twins can run things in the Central for a few years if they play these cards right. Hear me Derek?

[Nine of twelve]

 

I don't buy the tanking theory either.  I think that in today's analytical game, they mapped out how many they needed to win and how to get there.  It's a long season and they will contend with that pitching staff IF the pitchers stay healthy.  Where I think it gets really interesting is at the trade deadline if they are out of it.  Granted, a lot would have to go wrong, but those pitchers will be highly sought after if healthy.  Should be interesting.  I like where the Twins are right now.  Depth concerns me.  Stay healthy boys!

Trading a couple of their starting pitchers could give a huge kick-start to a rebuild, especially if there are several teams vying for those pitchers. Cleveland's front office could come out smelling like a rose if they are lagging in the standings at trade deadline time.

[Doomtints]

Hopefully the Twins don't care what Cleveland does and will be more focused on taking care of business.

 

Can we kill this thread now?

[amjgt]

Trading a couple of their starting pitchers could give a huge kick-start to a rebuild, especially if there are several teams vying for those pitchers. Cleveland's front office could come out smelling like a rose if they are lagging in the standings at trade deadline time.

Could you imagine if they really went all in on a tank? They’d have the best farm system in baseball by a mile. Not that I think they should do this, but MAN could they load up on prospects.

[Mike Sixel]

Monsignor Martinez
2:16 Is it just me, or do the Indians look like they're going to be really bad this year?
Craig Edwards
2:18 Cleveland has a stars and scrubs team and they need their stars to play like it. They are currently down one of their stars. They need Lindor back, but assuming no major injuries and the pitching goes as planned, the team should still be good enough to win the division.

 

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/craig-edwards-fangraphs-chat-4-4-19/