Berardino: Concussion Symptoms Return for Mauer

[ewen21]

 

Nobody here knows how or if the concussion effected Mauer the last 5 years and nobody here know how he is going to feel in a week or a month.  No one's concussion stories are the same and what happen to one person doesn't indicate it's also going to happen to Mauer,

 

The medical staff and Mauer felt he was concussion free the last 5 years and he played.  If they both decide that he is able to play and he wants to play, that is his decision and must be good for him.  Who are we to tell him not to play?

Once again, he can play if he wants to play but no team (the Twins included) must feel compelled to take a risk on him.  I am not telling him not to play.  I am saying his wish to play doesn't have to be honored given the circumstances

[jud6312]

Sometimes these guys need to be saved from themselves - Chuck Liddell in the UFC is a perfect example.

 

He didn't want to walk away, but because of his age and the damage he's taken, Dana White wouldn't book him anymore - said he cared too much about him as a person. Chuck, given his desire to fight Tito Ortiz again at age 48 and being gone for almost a decade, isn't ready to give in, but if it happens it'll be under Oscar de la Hoya, and not the UFC.

 

This might be what the Twins need to do if the symptoms don't go away and Joe's willing to risk it.

 

I mean, maybe they dissipate and he's back, but is it really worth it? I haven't had a "major" concussion in 10+ years (one minor one since then, bringing the total to 6), and I still get foggy from time to time, get dizzy on occasion, and suffer from migraines. The things I did to get those weren't worth it.

[jokin]

 

No one is saying it has to be his to make, but that he has an opinion too.  The Twins would be right to listen to it along with other relevant information.  Discarding him should only really happen if he prefers that option.  He's been with the organization long enough that they should care what he prefers.  Plus it's just the right way to do things.

 

I think the Twins braintrust should care most about what the medical professionals' preferences are.

Hopefully, they lay out the risks and percentages to Joe and the organization for the chances of permanent brain injury or becoming another Mike Quarry.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I think the Twins braintrust should care most about what the medical professionals' preferences are.

Hopefully, they lay out the risks and percentages to Joe and the organization for the chances of permanent brain injury or becoming another Mike Quarry.

 

Sure, but Joe is still part of that conversation.  The Twins are not obligated to play him against medical advice, but the suggestion in this thread that what Joe wants is completely irrelevant is really bizarre.

[bcs4]

Joe will come back so he can make a proper exit.

 

Buxton is going to have a tougher decision to make.

[jokin]

 

Sure, but Joe is still part of that conversation.  The Twins are not obligated to play him against medical advice, but the suggestion in this thread that what Joe wants is completely irrelevant is really bizarre.

 

I thought I made that clear:

 

 

"Hopefully, they lay out the risks and percentages to Joe and the organization..."

 

[Twodogs]

I'm sure professional athletes who have made hundreds of millions of dollars have highly paid medical personnel that will tell Joe what he should do. Any of us speculating about what will or could happen to him are all pretty much uninformed because we are not looking at his medical information, we are going off of what other people have said. His symptoms could be relatively minor? Not bad enough to prevent you or me from going to work, but him trying to track 95mph fastballs could be a different thing. His symptoms could also be the precursor to something worse where he should get the hell out asap. But since we are not the doctors looking at him and dealing with his issues we don't really know. We will find out when he and the medical team makes those decisions. Until then it's all speculations on our part.

[ewen21]

 

Sure, but Joe is still part of that conversation.  The Twins are not obligated to play him against medical advice, but the suggestion in this thread that what Joe wants is completely irrelevant is really bizarre.

You are rephrasing and mischaracterizing what I said and I think you are doing it intentionally.  Please stop.  I am pretty clear in what I said.  I said I would not endorse him playing if I were the Twins.  Afterall they do employ him so the final say is theirs, not Joe's.  

 

The other thing is, the concussion symptoms lasted several years according to Joe although that slipped through the cracks and he never informed the Twins.  If anything is bizarre there it is. 

[AlwaysinModeration]

He has gotten everything he needs out of baseball. Playing again really benefits no one, not this least of which his wife and children. At some point people need to let go of Joe the ballplayer.

No ring.

 

Joe played gold glove defense while batting over .300 last year. Obviously concerning that he got another concussion, but I think it is way too early to assume this is the end of Joe’s career.

[Otto von Ballpark]

You are rephrasing and mischaracterizing what I said and I think you are doing it intentionally. Please stop. I am pretty clear in what I said. I said I would not endorse him playing if I were the Twins. Afterall they do employ him so the final say is theirs, not Joe's.

I won't wade into this any further, but you've stated this several times without any qualifiers for Mauer's opinion on the matter. Thus, I think the characterizations of your position by other posters, that Mauer's opunion is irrelevant to your position, have been accurate. If not, you are free to clarify differently.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Maija Varda has a really good blog post re: Joe’s health

 

https://www.twinkietown.com/2018/6/2/17417492/what-does-the-return-of-joe-mauer-concussion-symptoms-mean-for-his-future-minnesota-twins-mlb

[ewen21]

 

I won't wade into this any further, but you've stated this several times without any qualifiers for Mauer's opinion on the matter. Thus, I think the characterizations of your position by other posters, that Mauer's opunion is irrelevant to your position, have been accurate. If not, you are free to clarify differently.

Ultimately, whether he plays for the Twins isn't his decision to make.  He doesn't run the team.  He might want to keep playing, but it comes down to management.  Joe has a mysterious past with concussions so they are going take this one very seriously.  According to Joe he played with symptoms for over three years.   If you know something about concussions the more you get them easier it is to get them.  If this lasts a month or so the decision should be made for him.

 

 

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Ultimately, whether he plays for the Twins isn't his decision to make. He doesn't run the team. He might want to keep playing, but it comes down to management. Joe has a mysterious past with concussions so they are going take this one very seriously. According to Joe he played with symptoms for over three years. If you know something about concussions the more you get them easier it is to get them. If this lasts a month or so the decision should be made for him.

its true that more concussions you get, the easier it is to get them. Agreed that there is a threshold that “should” have the decision made for him.

 

I don’t know that it “will” be made for him. He came back from the last one well past the month of symptoms threshold. His symptoms have been persisting a month currently and the talk is to bring him back.

 

I think (I dont know) that the decision is his to make. It probably should be his to make for as long as he’s under contract and he passes medical evaluations.

 

If I were in his shoes I like to think that I’d hang it up, but then it’s easy for me to say that from here.

 

If I were in Falvine’s shoes, I don’t think I’d re-sign Joe, for health reasons.

[DrNeau]

Timeline

 

* 8/2013: Mauer suffers concussion - ending season and prompted move from catcher.
* 10/2013: Mauer is fully-cleared to resume baseball activities
* 5/30/14: [Mauer's remark on health and sub-par performance] "I feel pretty good actually, which is even more frustrating." 
* 2015 spring: "Just overall, I feel great." 
* 11/6/2015: Mauer stated he had "no lingering issues from the 2013 concussion". 
* 2016 spring: Mauer stated he had been experiencing "blurred vision" for 2.5 years since the 8/2013 concussion. Mauer followed up in a separate interview and stated he was "feeling great".
* 5/11/2018: Mauer dives for foul ball in game. 
* 5/18/2018: Mauer leaves mid-game and stated he had a condition which was "neck and upper-back related", similar to whiplash. 
* 5/19/2018: Twins place Mauer on 10-day DL for cervical strain that includes concussion-like symptoms. Twins decided to have doctors administer a SCAT 5 concussion examination. Mauer passes the test. Team maintains that Mauer did not officially have a concussion.
 

Sort of an interesting chain of events. 

[DrNeau]

The Twins placed him on the 10-day disabled list the following day with a cervical strain and concussion-like symptoms. Asked directly if he believes he suffered a concussion against the Angels, Mauer suggested he had.

“Definitely having the symptoms,” he said. “I think that’s kind of how they do (differentiate): If you have the symptoms, then you probably had one.”

 

https://www.twincities.com/2018/05/31/concussion-symptoms-return-for-twins-joe-mauer-im-not-there-yet/

 

Very interesting that despite the Twins putting Mauer on the DL due to Mauer's claims of experiencing symptoms, the team has maintained that (1) Mauer has not had a concussion, and additionally, (2) Mauer passed the concussion test. In the article above, Mauer has made a statement that doctors "differentiate" a concussion by a person having "the symptoms". Doctors don't make a diagnosis off of the symptoms alone. 

 

To say that, isn't really accurate. He took the test - and passed. 

 

Additionally, his statements regarding his own health have been demonstrated (time and time again) to not add up.

 

Isn't that weird to anyone? I wonder why this is not being discussed.

[yarnivek1972]

Ultimately, whether he plays for the Twins isn't his decision to make. He doesn't run the team. He might want to keep playing, but it comes down to management. Joe has a mysterious past with concussions so they are going take this one very seriously. According to Joe he played with symptoms for over three years. If you know something about concussions the more you get them easier it is to get them. If this lasts a month or so the decision should be made for him.

 

If he is medically cleared, the decision is absolutely his to play or not. They can’t keep him on the DL if he’s medically cleared. Are you suggesting the Twins release him even if he is cleared and wants to play? I don’t see that happening and it certainly benefits no one.

[ewen21]

 

If he is medically cleared, the decision is absolutely his to play or not. They can’t keep him on the DL if he’s medically cleared. Are you suggesting the Twins release him even if he is cleared and wants to play? I don’t see that happening and it certainly benefits no one.

NO, I am mostly concerned about the compounding effects of concussions at this point.  For Joe's sake he should weigh his options because he is in a good place if he decides not to play after this year.   Do you believe he should risk his well being and play on after this year?  At this point, I don't see that as a good move.  Not for anyone.

 

Does anyone want to see his career end being taken off the field for (God forbid) something bad?  I know I don't.  NO one does.

[ewen21]

My thing is if we extend the timeline out far enough it opens the door for the potential for something bad to happen and that should be a concern for any fan.

[yarnivek1972]

Unless you have a medical degree you are in no position to offer an opinion as to what kind of risks he is taking. Is Mauer having that discussion with his doctor and family?

 

Probably.

 

But you continue to assert that it is the Twins decision to make and not Mauer’s. That is simply not true, unless the Twins flat out release him. They can’t force him to retire.

[ThejacKmp]

 

Very interesting that despite the Twins putting Mauer on the DL due to Mauer's claims of experiencing symptoms, the team has maintained that (1) Mauer has not had a concussion, and additionally, (2) Mauer passed the concussion test. In the article above, Mauer has made a statement that doctors "differentiate" a concussion by a person having "the symptoms". Doctors don't make a diagnosis off of the symptoms alone. 

 

To say that, isn't really accurate. He took the test - and passed. 

 

Additionally, his statements regarding his own health have been demonstrated (time and time again) to not add up.

 

Isn't that weird to anyone? I wonder why this is not being discussed.

 

I think it's semantics and a lay person talking about the vagueries of health care terms. Doctors draw a line between concussions and concussion symptoms but to Joe, it's all the same. It's like if you're tripping on acid vs. having an acid flashback - you're seeing weird things either way, what does it really matter to you? But to a doctor, it affects treatment.

 

When has Joe lied about his health? He had a weird think in his leg and as a private guy, didn't talk about it a lot. Also not in his interest (or the Twins) to be forthcoming about injuries - Belichek has made an art of this in the NFL. The press blew it up because of the contract he'd signed and because it's the press and that's what it does.

 

Concussions are a weird thing. Doctors know less about the brain than any other part of the body. Some guys can take blows to the head and be relatively fine and some can't. Symptoms linger and get triggered by weird things - my brother has had a number of concussions and avoids driving more than 15 minutes at night because the headlights can give him problems.

 

Non-story to me.

[TheLeviathan]

Unless you have a medical degree you are in no position to offer an opinion as to what kind of risks he is taking. Is Mauer having that discussion with his doctor and family?

Probably.

But you continue to assert that it is the Twins decision to make and not Mauer’s. That is simply not true, unless the Twins flat out release him. They can’t force him to retire.

This. Cutting Maier out of the decision is straight up nonsense.

[ewen21]

 

This. Cutting Maier out of the decision is straight up nonsense.

Even AFTER the season is done and the contract is up?  Do the Twins not decide on how the roster shakes out for next year and beyond or not?

 

 

[TheLeviathan]

Even AFTER the season is done and the contract is up?  Do the Twins not decide on how the roster shakes out for next year and beyond or not?

They can decide if he remains a Twin. They don’t get to end his career as you keep insinuating. He can sign elsewhere and keep playing.

 

They can advise him to retire. His doctors can advise it too. Ultimately Joe decides when he is done, as he should.

[ewen21]

 

They can decide if he remains a Twin. They don’t get to end his career as you keep insinuating. He can sign elsewhere and keep playing.

They can advise him to retire. His doctors can advise it too. Ultimately Joe decides when he is done, as he should.

And the Twins decide if they resign him.

[DrNeau]

 

I think it's semantics and a lay person talking about the vagueries of health care terms. Doctors draw a line between concussions and concussion symptoms but to Joe, it's all the same. It's like if you're tripping on acid vs. having an acid flashback - you're seeing weird things either way, what does it really matter to you? But to a doctor, it affects treatment.

 

When has Joe lied about his health? He had a weird think in his leg and as a private guy, didn't talk about it a lot. Also not in his interest (or the Twins) to be forthcoming about injuries - Belichek has made an art of this in the NFL. The press blew it up because of the contract he'd signed and because it's the press and that's what it does.

 

Concussions are a weird thing. Doctors know less about the brain than any other part of the body. Some guys can take blows to the head and be relatively fine and some can't. Symptoms linger and get triggered by weird things - my brother has had a number of concussions and avoids driving more than 15 minutes at night because the headlights can give him problems.

 

Non-story to me.

 

5/30/14: Player says he feels pretty good.
4/2/15: Player says he feels great.
11/6/15: Player says he has no lingering issues from 2013 concussion.
4/12/16: Player says he had been experiencing blurred vision during an entire 2.5-year span, since 8/13.
5/11/18: Player dives for ball in a game.
5/18/18: Player comes out of game a week later.
5/19/18: Player passes concussion test. Team says player didn't have concussion.
5/31/18: Player says doctors diagnose concussions on the basis that if a player has the symptoms, then that means the player had a concussion. Reporter stated the player suggested he had suffered a concussion. Player's suggestions were then in contrast with both the test results and the team's position on the topic. 

 

Lots of "semantics" here, that is for sure. Semantics where one statement is in direct opposition of another.

 

I had limited my discussion purely to his comments regarding concussions. You questioned when Joe has lied about his health and then brought up bilateral leg weakness. I'll let Mauer's own quote on his leg conditioning be my response. Mauer said on 3/7/14 - when transitioning to 1B - that he got all of his leg workouts catching bullpens in the past. "The past", as it applied to his MLB experience, from the date of that quote (3/7/14), was 10 years and 29 days. So, for 10 years and 29 days, Mauer did not lift legs, because his leg workouts were "catching bullpens". That is on direct quote from Mauer. For you to brush off the reasoning for him having weak legs as just a "weird thing" is sort of interesting.

[ThejacKmp]

 

5/30/14: Player says he feels pretty good.
4/2/15: Player says he feels great.
11/6/15: Player says he has no lingering issues from 2013 concussion.
4/12/16: Player says he had been experiencing blurred vision during an entire 2.5-year span, since 8/13.
5/11/18: Player dives for ball in a game.
5/18/18: Player comes out of game a week later.
5/19/18: Player passes concussion test. Team says player didn't have concussion.
5/31/18: Player says doctors diagnose concussions on the basis that if a player has the symptoms, then that means the player had a concussion. Reporter stated the player suggested he had suffered a concussion. Player's suggestions were then in contrast with both the test results and the team's position on the topic. 

 

Lots of "semantics" here, that is for sure. Semantics where one statement is in direct opposition of another.

 

I had limited my discussion purely to his comments regarding concussions. You questioned when Joe has lied about his health and then brought up bilateral leg weakness. I'll let Mauer's own quote on his leg conditioning be my response. Mauer said on 3/7/14 - when transitioning to 1B - that he got all of his leg workouts catching bullpens in the past. "The past", as it applied to his MLB experience, from the date of that quote (3/7/14), was 10 years and 29 days. So, for 10 years and 29 days, Mauer did not lift legs, because his leg workouts were "catching bullpens". That is on direct quote from Mauer. For you to brush off the reasoning for him having weak legs as just a "weird thing" is sort of interesting.

 

I'm curious what your overall view is. Joe Mauer lies about his health? Joe Mauer is not on the same page as his doctors? Joe Mauer is making up or babying health issues?

 

I think concussions are super confusing and hard to diagnose. I think the same thing is true of a lot of other medical aspects - doctors misdiagnose things or can't give you something precise.

 

I don't get your catching bullpens issue. He seems to say that he doesn't do leg workouts because catching bullpens works out his legs. That seems pretty reasonable to me. I tried catching when I was 75 pounds and it was really hard on legs, I can't imagine how crazy it would be on the pro level.

[DrNeau]

 

I'm curious what your overall view is. Joe Mauer lies about his health? Joe Mauer is not on the same page as his doctors? Joe Mauer is making up or babying health issues?

 

I think concussions are super confusing and hard to diagnose. I think the same thing is true of a lot of other medical aspects - doctors misdiagnose things or can't give you something precise.

 

I don't get your catching bullpens issue. He seems to say that he doesn't do leg workouts because catching bullpens works out his legs. That seems pretty reasonable to me. I tried catching when I was 75 pounds and it was really hard on legs, I can't imagine how crazy it would be on the pro level.

 

These are your points?
* Bilateral leg weakness was a "weird thing". The press "blew it up".
* Concussions are a "weird thing". They are confusing and hard to diagnose. Doctors misdiagnose things.
* Catching bullpens is "crazy" on the legs. For Joe Mauer, it was sufficient to not lift leg weights over the span of 10 years.

 

My overall view is that Mauer's quotes are often conflicting. His quotes have conflicted with medical exam results. His quotes have conflicted with the team, where Mauer says he had a concussion and the team says he did not. His quotes have even conflicted with his very own quotes. I find that odd; and, as I said, I wonder why that is not being discussed. 

[ThejacKmp]

 

These are your points?
* Bilateral leg weakness was a "weird thing". The press "blew it up".
* Concussions are a "weird thing". They are confusing and hard to diagnose. Doctors misdiagnose things.
* Catching bullpens is "crazy" on the legs. For Joe Mauer, it was sufficient to not lift leg weights over the span of 10 years.

 

My overall view is that Mauer's quotes are often conflicting. His quotes have conflicted with medical exam results. His quotes have conflicted with the team, where Mauer says he had a concussion and the team says he did not. His quotes have even conflicted with his very own quotes. I find that odd; and, as I said, I wonder why that is not being discussed. 

 

To not lift weights during the season. The offseason is a different matter. I'm also certain that Joe Mauer is not making his own training decisions, he's doing what the Twins training staff tells him to do.

 

You can put quotes around weird thing to minimize it but they're both relatively freak accidents that are difficult to decipher. In both cases, Joe gets blamed by an impatient media and fan base that feel entitled to complain because "he's got a big contract" when its the medical staff that doesn't have a clear concept of what's going on. And that doesn't mean I think we should blame doctors - we should just realize that with concussions, doctors are pretty much in the dark as to how an individual one will progress. With his leg issue, doctors had a difficult time diagnosing what was going on.

 

Joe's not a doctor, reading into the quotes of a guy who doesn't like talking to the media but is forced to talk to an increasingly bitter and hostile one seems like a pretty pointless activity.

[KGB]

 

 

Joe's not a doctor, reading into the quotes of a guy who doesn't like talking to the media but is forced to talk to an increasingly bitter and hostile one seems like a pretty pointless activity.

I think trying to label the media as "bitter and hostile" is a Trump-like reach.

 

Overall the mainstream media has been very kind to Mauer.  He is far from a perfect player, so writing or reporting about his injury history or weakness in his game doesn't make it a attack on him.  People who attack him on the internet are not the same people as the media.  It's Mauer's right not to talk to the media, but it leaves people guessing, so if he want to set the record straight it up to him. 

[ThejacKmp]

 

I think trying to label the media as "bitter and hostile" is a Trump-like reach.

 

Overall the mainstream media has been very kind to Mauer.  He is far from a perfect player, so writing or reporting about his injury history or weakness in his game doesn't make it a attack on him.  People who attack him on the internet are not the same people as the media.  It's Mauer's right not to talk to the media, but it leaves people guessing, so if he want to set the record straight it up to him. 

 

You're right that "the media' is a bit of a broad overstatement. Many media members are calm and rational in talking about Joe the player.

 

But I think it'd be hard to deny that mouthpieces like Souhan have been getting their soundbites off at Joe's expense for years. There's a glee that comes to slamming him and calling him a wuss while ignoring the bigger picture. It's the same thing you often see when they talk about Sano's weight.

 

And I think that unfortunately, a few of them can drive a concept of a player just by bringing the concepts that he's a liar or spoiled or lazy or faking it into the conversation. They have a soap box and what they say steers the dialogue.

 

Interesting point about Mauer not talking to the media. In some ways, being Joe works against him. He's not a guy like David Price who can refuse to talk to people - he's way too nice for that. I think it would actively pain him to ignore someone like that. So he gets stuck in that "Oh shucks, I gotta say something. Wish I didn't have to." zone.