Falvey

[gil4]

So wins and losses aren't what it's about?

My guess is his answer will be that professional sports are about selling entertainment and making money, and that's certainly true. I'm usually more entertained when my team wins, but so is everyone else. That means there needs to be some degree of competitive balance.

The Yankee fans might not agree with that, but I prefer it when they are in a down cycle. The whining and public outcry among their fans adds to my entertainment value.

[ashbury]

I was fine with Melville as well. He was a former top prospect who had injury issues and is now healthy.

That was a reasonable rationale for signing him to a minor league contract. His 2017 AAA numbers (beyond ERA) do not support the idea that he can contribute at the major league level beyond replacement-level value, so why bother if that's the upside?

[alarp33]

 

That was a reasonable rationale for signing him to a minor league contract. His 2017 AAA numbers (beyond ERA) do not support the idea that he can contribute at the major league level beyond replacement-level value, so why bother if that's the upside?

 

He started 1 game! What are you talking about contributing at ML level beyond replacement level value, they didn't sign him to a multi year deal

 

What numbers has Gonsalves shown at AAA support he would've contributed at the Major League level beyond replacement level**?

 

** vs a team that feasts on lefties.  

[rujellis]

At the very least, its nice to be having these type of conversations at the end of August.  When scratching and clawing for each game(and second guessing decisions) means something.

[ashbury]

 

He started 1 game! What are you talking about contributing at ML level beyond replacement level value, they didn't sign him to a multi year deal

 

What numbers has Gonsalves shown at AAA support he would've contributed at the Major League level beyond replacement level**?

 

** vs a team that feasts on lefties.  

Melville has started 20 games this season. They all count, and taken together they give a pretty good picture of his capabilities at this point in time. In particular he's been very average in 10 starts at AAA. Very average does not project well for major league performance. The average 27-year old in AAA can't play in the majors except for short stretches, because, well, the team wouldn't have him at AAA. Exceptions exist; nothing about Melville suggested to me he is one.

 

I didn't say anything about Gonsalves. I responded to a comment about the rationale for signing Melville not being the same as a reason to bring him up, even for a spot start. That doesn't mean I thought it was the end of the world, merely a waste of a start - it was indeed a short stretch.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

He started 1 game! What are you talking about contributing at ML level beyond replacement level value, they didn't sign him to a multi year deal

 

What numbers has Gonsalves shown at AAA support he would've contributed at the Major League level beyond replacement level**?

 

** vs a team that feasts on lefties.  

There is also the matter of who is more likely to contribute between now and the end of the season.  Even if Gonsalves turned in similar results to Melville on Monday and lost, I think getting him that experience could have been valuable in case we need to call on him for spot starts / long relief in September.

 

Obviously it would have been nice to have more than 3 AAA starts for Gonsalves before late August, but that's another decision I disagreed with.

 

And as far as the White Sox "feasting on lefties", it's really only two batters these days, thanks to trades and injuries -- Abreu and Avisail Garcia.  And they went 3-for-4 off Melville anyway...

[drivlikejehu]

Every team in the Majors uses some replacement-level guys for short stretches of time. That's just the way it is. The most successful and wealthiest orgs do it as well. The Twins made the decision that calling up Gonsalves for one start, just after reaching AAA, wasn't going to make a difference at the MLB level nor help Gonsalves long-term.

 

That's an entirely reasonable decision. It's one thing to want to see Gonsalves - I personally would have preferred that he make the start - and another to claim that spot starting Melville meaningfully hurt the Twins' season, which is objectively false. There is no rational basis for the position and no one complaining about it can possibly supply one.

[alarp33]

 

Melville has started 20 games this season. They all count, and taken together they give a pretty good picture of his capabilities at this point in time. In particular he's been very average in 10 starts at AAA. Very average does not project well for major league performance. The average 27-year old in AAA can't play in the majors except for short stretches, because, well, the team wouldn't have him at AAA. Exceptions exist; nothing about Melville suggested to me he is one.

 

 

Honest question. How many starters do you expect them to have at their disposal, that all fit your criteria of needing to be better than average at AAA in order to spot start for the MLB team?

 

None of these starters were available to pitch instead of Melville

 

Gibson

Santana

Berrios

Gee

Hughes

Mejia

Colon

Enns

Slegers

Santiago

 

 

 

 

[alarp33]

 

Even if Gonsalves turned in similar results to Melville on Monday and lost, I think getting him that experience could have been valuable in case we need to call on him for spot starts / long relief in September.

 

 

You are using hindsight, come on.  They wanted to win the game and Monday, Melville had been pitching well in AAA and had pitched in MLB before, and was a better match-up vs the Sox. 

 

They didn't know/ expect Melville to last 3.1 innings! Of course they could've used someone else if they could see into the future

[Brock Beauchamp]

I don't get the Melville thing. I hope there's some roster issue I'm not seeing because Gonsalves should have received that start.

 

But in the grand scheme of things, I'm not going to get too upset about it, either. If Melville gets three starts and Gonsalves is twiddling his thumbs, then I'll become irritated.

[clone52]

 

Why would he have started on August 4th? His turn would have been August 3rd. There was no requirement that we would have had to cut Colon to keep him.

Let's just agree that any comparison of this kind is going to introduce "butterfly effect" problems.

That said, I would have liked to add to our depth chart. Especially knowing we had at least 1 doubleheader coming up down the stretch.

 

Thats my point.  There is no way you can say what the effect of keeping Garcia would have been.   I was responding to someone saying we would have swept Chicago if we kept Garcia.

[clone52]

 

Siegers
Gonsalves
Duffey
Gibson

 

Okay, its a response like this that shows how shortsighted people are.

 

Slegers (Not an option unless you want a guy to make his second major league appearance on short rest).

 

Gonsalves (The only legitimate option on this list, but not a sure fire better bet than Melville.  Long term, he's a better option, but Melville has been just as good as Gonsalves this year.  There is no reason to assume Gonsalves would have given them a better chance in that game than Melville did.  Plus, either one takes up a spot on the 40 man.  Lets say they want to use that spot later.  Probably feel okay risking melville on the 40 man, but once Gonsalves joins it, he's not going off it).

 

Duffey:  Maybe an option if you want to go with a bullpen game, but he's not stretched out and you also screw up one of your key bullpen pieces for about 5 games.

 

Gibson:  He could have pitched on short rest, but you have the SAME FREAKING ISSUE for Tuesdays game then.

 

And names you did not mention

Rosario has been in the bullpen since he was sent down.

Jorge would have eitehr had to be extremely short rest, or extremely long rest, both of which could be a detriment to him considering there is no evidence that he would have been any better than Melville.

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

You are using hindsight, come on.  They wanted to win the game and Monday, Melville had been pitching well in AAA and had pitched in MLB before, and was a better match-up vs the Sox. 

 

They didn't know/ expect Melville to last 3.1 innings! Of course they could've used someone else if they could see into the future

You just posted a list yourself that suggested Melville was no better than 11th on our SP depth chart but got the start because of timing/circumstance.  So no, I don't think they were necessarily expecting much from him.  Hindsight is not required to say they could have had similar expectations for Gonsalves.  (Remember too that Gonsalves didn't deliver his first "clunker" start of the season until Sunday, after the decision to start Melville was already made. He's still a AAA novice, of course, but some of the posts including his Sunday stats as a potential justification for this decision would probably be more guilty of relying on hindsight than saying the team had low expectations for Melville.)

 

And again I dispute the notion that Melville was a meaningfully "better match-up vs the Sox" as they are currently constructed.  The White Sox as a team have solid numbers vs LHB on the season, but they traded Cabrera and Frazier, plus Davidson and a few part-timers are on the DL, etc.  As far as lefty-mashers in their current lineup, it's pretty much down to Abreu and Avisail Garcia.  It can be a factor, but probably a pretty minor one when debating Melville vs Gonsalves.

 

Melville may have got the nod simply because they knew they could add and cut him quickly to get Curtiss up, if they aren't ready to make another 40-man decision quite yet.  (Also assuming they are in no rush to see Gonsalves contribute in MLB this year, which seems clear.)

[clone52]

 

They could have set up the rotation in AAA differently very easily, there is no reason why Gonsalves couldn't have been set up to pitch in the double header.

Duffey could have started and given you 4-5 innings on a pitch count, Melville only gave them 3.1 innings after all!

Gibson could have pitched in the DH and they could have had Siegers up for yesterdays game etc

 

 

Why do you think Duffey gives you 4-innings, not being stretched out at all.

Why do you assume Gonsalves would have given a better game than Melville?  Melville has been just as good as Gonsalves this year (although not a long term prospect).?

You really trust Gibson on short rest?  REally?  Really?

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Thats my point.  There is no way you can say what the effect of keeping Garcia would have been.   I was responding to someone saying we would have swept Chicago if we kept Garcia.

That's fair.  I wouldn't say anything would be certain. But the odds of a sweep would have been higher with improved MLB SP depth, I think.  We didn't know the specifics yet, but that was part of the risk of flipping Garcia at the deadline.

[clone52]

 

That was a reasonable rationale for signing him to a minor league contract. His 2017 AAA numbers (beyond ERA) do not support the idea that he can contribute at the major league level beyond replacement-level value, so why bother if that's the upside?

 

What 2017 don't support the idea that he can contribute?

His 1.065 WHIP (better than Gonsalves)

His 8.6 K/9 (lower than Gonsalves, but still pretty darn good)

 

I want to see Gonsalves as much as anybody and I would have loved to see him get the start, but starting Melville wasn't the kidn of boneheaded decision some people are making it out to be.

[clone52]

 

You just posted a list yourself that suggested Melville was no better than 11th on our SP depth chart but got the start because of timing/circumstance.  So no, I don't think they were necessarily expecting much from him.  Hindsight is not required to say they could have had similar expectations for Gonsalves.  (Remember too that Gonsalves didn't deliver his first "clunker" start of the season until Sunday, after the decision to start Melville was already made. He's still a AAA novice, of course, but some of the posts including his Sunday stats as a potential justification for this decision would probably be more guilty of relying on hindsight than saying the team had low expectations for Melville.)

 

And again I dispute the notion that Melville was a meaningfully "better match-up vs the Sox" as they are currently constructed.  The White Sox as a team have solid numbers vs LHB on the season, but they traded Cabrera and Frazier, plus Davidson and a few part-timers are on the DL, etc.  As far as lefty-mashers in their current lineup, it's pretty much down to Abreu and Avisail Garcia.  It can be a factor, but probably a pretty minor one when debating Melville vs Gonsalves.

 

Melville may have got the nod simply because they knew they could add and cut him quickly to get Curtiss up, if they aren't ready to make another 40-man decision quite yet.  (Also assuming they are in no rush to see Gonsalves contribute in MLB this year, which seems clear.)

 

One other possible reason for Melville over Gonsalves (all else being equal) is that if you have to remove Melville from the 40 man later, you probably aren't terribly concerned.  If you put Gonsalves on the 40 man, he stays there and you might have to release someone else later before you want to.

[Brock Beauchamp]

When you're playing seven games in five days, pulling one of your relievers out of the pen for a spot start is not an option unless you enjoy pissing off your manager (who should and would get angry about such a decision).

 

The only real option was Gonsalves. Duffey shouldn't have been a consideration.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

One other possible reason for Melville over Gonsalves (all else being equal) is that if you have to remove Melville from the 40 man later, you probably aren't terribly concerned.  If you put Gonsalves on the 40 man, he stays there and you might have to release someone else later before you want to.

This is the only thing that makes sense to me.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

One other possible reason for Melville over Gonsalves (all else being equal) is that if you have to remove Melville from the 40 man later, you probably aren't terribly concerned.  If you put Gonsalves on the 40 man, he stays there and you might have to release someone else later before you want to.

That's basically what I said in my last paragraph.  It's not even an "if" -- they dropped Melville a day later, I am guessing it was part of the plan unless he notably out-performed Gee.

 

Of course, at this point Santiago isn't even going to start his next rehab assignment until August 29, which is 58 days after he went on the DL.  He was an easy candidate to transfer to the 60-day DL to get Curtiss up now, while still investing a start in Gonsalves.  (It would kick the can down the road a bit, but odds are there will be more opportunities to clear 40-man space later -- Enns could be another 60-day DL guy.)

[clone52]

 

That's fair.  I wouldn't say anything would be certain. But the odds of a sweep would have been higher with improved MLB SP depth, I think.  We didn't know the specifics yet, but that was part of the risk of flipping Garcia at the deadline.

 

Depends if you are talking MLB SP this year or long term.  We increased our SP depth long term by getting Enns/Littell.

 

If you are saying that MLB SP depth this year is the #1 priority, then yes, keeping Garcia was the right move.  But you could also say that they should have traded Gonsalves and Romero for Sonny Gray, or Marco Estrada or someone like that.

[clone52]

 

That's basically what I said in my last paragraph.  It's not even an "if" -- they dropped Melville a day later, I am guessing it was part of the plan unless he notably out-performed Gee.

 

Of course, at this point Santiago isn't even going to start his next rehab assignment until August 29, which is 58 days after he went on the DL.  He was an easy candidate to transfer to the 60-day DL to get Curtiss up now, while still investing a start in Gonsalves.  (It would kick the can down the road a bit, but odds are there will be more opportunities to clear 40-man space later -- Enns could be another 60-day DL guy.)

 

Did they drop Melville of the 40 man roster?  I figured they just sent him back to the minors.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Depends if you are talking MLB SP this year or long term.  We increased our SP depth long term by getting Enns/Littell.

MLB SP depth means MLB SP depth.  Enns and Littell are still only minor league SP depth at this point (Enns brief MLB start notwithstanding, that was probably more of a Melville type situation given his 40-man status and their quick hook).

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Did they drop Melville of the 40 man roster?  I figured they just sent him back to the minors.

DFA'd means removed from the 40-man roster.

 

Melville does have all 3 option years remaining, so it was a possibility.  That they didn't bother, and DFA'd him instead of 60-day DL'ing Santiago, shows his relative value to the Twins and around the league.

[clone52]

 

DFA'd means removed from the 40-man roster.

 

Melville does have all 3 option years remaining, so it was a possibility.  That they didn't bother, and DFA'd him instead of 60-day DL'ing Santiago, shows his relative value to the Twins and around the league.

 

I hadn't seen that yet.  That pretty much confirms the reason for Melville over Gonsalves.  If they knew they'd be calling Curtis up, they'd need a 40 man spot and this was their way to do it.

[clone52]

 

MLB SP depth means MLB SP depth.  Enns and Littell are still only minor league SP depth at this point (Enns brief MLB start notwithstanding, that was probably more of a Melville type situation given his 40-man status and their quick hook).

 

Fair point, I'd agree that having better MLB SP could have led to a sweep, but that does not mean trading Jaime Garcia was the wrong decision.

[ashbury]

What 2017 don't support the idea that he can contribute?

His 1.065 WHIP (better than Gonsalves)

His AAA numbers were built on a rate of batted balls being caught that can't be expected to keep going. His major league start went the opposite direction and that's not sustainable either. He's somewhere in the middle. AAA filler.

[SwainZag]

 

His AAA numbers were built on a rate of batted balls being caught that can't be expected to keep going. His major league start went the opposite direction and that's not sustainable either. He's somewhere in the middle. AAA filler.

 

I agree and I tend to think the Twins FO thought the same as well.  It's possible they didn't think Gonsalves as ready for a ML start, the bats were hot and it was quite possible they could get a decent enough start out of Melville to win a game and DFA him afterwards regardless.  Obviously it didn't quite work out that way.

[lecroy24fan]

First year for Falvey and people are calling for his head. Sheesh.

 

I agree with going with Melcville based on the DFA last night. But I would have started Gimenez. 

[Doomtints]

Melville was pointless. Someone in the organization -- I'm guessing Molitor and not Falvey -- overthought the whole 5-game series thing. The team did not need 2 extra pitchers to make it through the series, they needed one for the double header, and they had Gee for that.

 

The only thing I can think of is they used Melville as Gee insurance, as someone they could move to the #5 spot if Gee failed.  There was nothing to suggest Gee was going to fail, however. They were simply overcomplicating/overthinking things.  They did not need to do an audition for the #5 spot with Gee on the roster already.

 

If the Twins want to make it to the next level they have to stop overthinking/overcomplicating simple issues. They probably don't have any games to burn the rest of the year. If they want to get a look at their AAA talent, they can hop on the plane.