Stick a fork in the 2017 Twins

[lukeduke1980]

It took months to jettison Breslow.   Granted the old FO would've given Belisle an extension but we can't have the entire bullpen be undependable innings eaters.  Rogers and Kintzler are okay pieces but they can't do it all.  Call up the arms - like Romero since he's being limited innings; and call up any of the guys who can throw a slider and strike someone out.

[ashbury]

Oh, and Mike and Mike arent exactly baseball experts. Even less so 11 years ago

So you're giving them credit for improving?

[jimmer]

So you're giving them credit for improving?

itd be pretty hard for them to have gotten worse, but I still wouldnt quote anything those two guys say about baseball, since their main focus is football.

[Tomj14]

 

Yeah I'd be dealing The following for sure:
Santana
Dozier
Garcia
Kintzler
Castro
Grossman
Santiago

Also would look into dealing Rosario and Polanco as well.

So basically a complete rebuild for 2019 then?

[Guest]

The pitching across the board is still a disaster. Other than Berrios and Santana, who can we exactly count on in the rotation moving fwd?

Bullpen: we have zero shut down guys, a decent closer and a couple decent arms. Long ways to go.

Depth in the minors at SP isn't promising either imo.

Bats and defense are fine and encouraging. Unfortunately pitching is prob the best important part of the game.

So yes, they are better than last year (which was the worst year in their history) but still, can't be ok with such terrible pitching.

So let's see - in Theo's third year with the Cubs, after he was given carte blanche right away, the Cubs went 71-91, but Falvey, after being told not to make major changes, is a failure in his first year because the team is hanging around .500? The need to identify things as a "disaster" is getting ridiculous.

 

As for pitching, at least three likely pieces of the solution have been identified and are solidifying their status as major leaguers - Berrios, Mejia and Rogers. Hildenberger also looks like a possibility, so that makes four. This is an improvement. Although the hyping of minor league pitchers has diminished, performance of several has actually improved, including, most importantly, Romero, Gonsalves, Curtiss and possibly Stewart. Again, marching orders were not to make major changes. Trading Dozier to De Leon would not have helped. Even with the benefit of Monday morning hindsight, what other specific change should he have done?

[Mike Sixel]

 

So let's see - in Theo's third year with the Cubs, after he was given carte blanche right away, the Cubs went 71-91, but Falvey, after being told not to make major changes, is a failure in his first year because the team is hanging around .500? The need to identify things as a "disaster" is getting ridiculous.

As for pitching, at least three likely pieces of the solution have been identified and are solidifying their status as major leaguers - Berrios, Mejia and Rogers. Hildenberger also looks like a possibility, so that makes four. This is an improvement. Although the hyping of minor league pitchers has diminished, performance of several has actually improved, including, most importantly, Romero, Gonsalves, Curtiss and possibly Stewart. Again, marching orders were not to make major changes. Trading Dozier to De Leon would not have helped. Even with the benefit of Monday morning hindsight, what other specific change should he have done?

 

I'm just curious, but what has the FO added to the system to make it better? Nearly all the players on teh roster were already in the system. We were told to expect growth and improvement from the young players, and other than Polanco, that has largely happened.

 

Merely having a winning record doesn't mean the FO did anything, does it? I think you are conflating two very different things......Dave and I wanted them to do something to make the pitching better, not just add a catcher, but add some pitchers. Others wanted them to add a DH. They added Castro, Gimenez, Belisle and Breslow. Are you arguing those adds are the cause for the better record?

 

In year what, the Cubs won it all....and are set up to do it again possibly, do you really want to go there?

[Tomj14]

Am I correct in saying that Buxton, Sano and Rosario will be free agents in 2021 and Kepler 2022?

 

[h2oface]

Ha! Every year, sell the assets, and the real push is two more years out. It is like tomorrow that never gets here, because it becomes now, and the prize is still two years away.... every year. How has this tact been working through the two thousand teens, eh? 

[nicksaviking]

 

Ha! Every year, sell the assets, and the real push is two more years out. It is like tomorrow that never gets here, because it becomes now, and the prize is still two years away.... every year. How has this tact been working through the two thousand teens, eh? 

 

I don't think the Twins have had any assets to sell, or were willing to sell any assets worth a meaningful return, since 2007.

[DaveW]

 

So basically a complete rebuild for 2019 then?

Yes. They clearly have no designs to actually bring in a major league caliber rotation for 2018, so might as well punt for 2019.

We have waited 26 years to sniff the world series, what's another year after all?

[Mike Sixel]

 

Ha! Every year, sell the assets, and the real push is two more years out. It is like tomorrow that never gets here, because it becomes now, and the prize is still two years away.... every year. How has this tact been working through the two thousand teens, eh? 

 

Except they never made the trades, and never improved the farm system, or if they did, it failed largely.  And, here we are, in the year (or past) where many said they'd be a legit playoff team. 

 

they never really COMMITTED, like Houston did. so, ya, I guess the reason people keep saying it, is that they haven't actually done it largely. 

 

I guess I could type "every year, it's ...don't trade the good players, then you'll never be good. How can you be good if you trade the good players. Don't worry, next year they'll be really good, and sign a bunch of really good FAs to fix the few holes they'll still have. Also, all the good young players will get better."

[Tomj14]

 

Except they never made the trades, and never improved the farm system, or if they did, it failed largely.  And, here we are, in the year (or past) where many said they'd be a legit playoff team. 

 

they never really COMMITTED, like Houston did. so, ya, I guess the reason people keep saying it, is that they haven't actually done it largely. 

 

I guess I could type "every year, it's ...don't trade the good players, then you'll never be good. How can you be good if you trade the good players. Don't worry, next year they'll be really good, and sign a bunch of really good FAs to fix the few holes they'll still have. Also, all the good young players will get better."

I agree with what you are saying, but this time seems different since we are almost half way though the cheap years of our young players

[nicksaviking]

 

Yes. They clearly have no designs to actually bring in a major league caliber rotation for 2018, so might as well punt for 2019.

We have waited 26 years to sniff the world series, what's another year after all?

 

Clearly? Has the off season started already?

[Doomtints]

 

It was a fun few months, time to sell the few sellable assets we have.

Falvey has failed us in his first season, this rotation and bullpen are embarrassing.

Hopefully can get some arms for the future.

I don't know if we have to do any fork-sticking, but this series showed us two things:

 

1) The Twins are where they are (~.500) because they never give up in a game.

2) The Dodgers are where they are (~.700) because they never give up in a game and they have a good team.

The Twins are on the right track.  Attitude is the toughest thing to get right, and the Twins players have it.  If management can help the team out by fielding a competent pitching staff, the Twins will have great years sooner rather than later.

So why sell? Sure, stop buying for this year. This doesn't mean you have to sell!

[Mike Sixel]

 

I agree with what you are saying, but this time seems different since we are almost half way though the cheap years of our young players

 

fair. It's a tough spot for sure.

 

It really depends on their assessment of some key minor league players, and what they believe they can do in FA. 

[Tomj14]

 

fair. It's a tough spot for sure.

 

It really depends on their assessment of some key minor league players, and what they believe they can do in FA. 

There may be some pieces in the minors that close to really helping (Garver and maybe a RP or two) but the starting pitchers and hitters seem to be two years out before really helping and being good. IMO

[Guest]

I'm just curious, but what has the FO added to the system to make it better? Nearly all the players on teh roster were already in the system. We were told to expect growth and improvement from the young players, and other than Polanco, that has largely happened.

 

Merely having a winning record doesn't mean the FO did anything, does it? I think you are conflating two very different things......Dave and I wanted them to do something to make the pitching better, not just add a catcher, but add some pitchers. Others wanted them to add a DH. They added Castro, Gimenez, Belisle and Breslow. Are you arguing those adds are the cause for the better record?

 

In year what, the Cubs won it all....and are set up to do it again possibly, do you really want to go there?

Answered your questions earlier. Unsure about what you mean by going there.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Answered your questions earlier. Unsure about what you mean by going there.

 

You compared teh Cubs rebuild to the Twins....I would bet a lot of money the Twins don't win a WS next year or the year after....a lot.

[Guest]

You compared teh Cubs rebuild to the Twins....I would bet a lot of money the Twins don't win a WS next year or the year after....a lot.

It took Theo five years to get to the Series after he started with the Cubs, with carte blanche and a bigger budget, but instead of using that history as perspective for Flavor Lev's first season, after 100 games of .500 ball, and being on pace for a better record than Theo got in his third year, people are throwing around "failure" and "disaster."

 

Twins fans are impatient after six years of losing preceding current management, yet Theo followed 100 years of losing.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Am I correct in saying that Buxton, Sano and Rosario will be free agents in 2021 and Kepler 2022?

After those seasons, correct. That's 5 more seasons after this one for Kepler, and 4 more for each of the others listed.

[Mike Sixel]

It took Theo five years to get to the Series after he started with the Cubs, with carte blanche and a bigger budget, but instead of using that history as perspective for Flavor Lev's first season, after 100 games of .500 ball, and being on pace for a better record than Theo got in his third year, people are throwing around "failure" and "disaster."

 

Twins fans are impatient after six years of losing preceding current management, yet Theo followed 100 years of losing.

 

If you don't think the Twins can win a World Series "the year after. . . a lot," why even pay attention to the team's actions? The pleasure of criticizing?

I'll take a bet right now they don't win a WS in the next 5 years.

[Brandon Warne]

 

Falvey has failed us in his first season, this rotation and bullpen are embarrassing.

 

Rome wasn't built in a day. They've made progress. 

[Dave The Dastardly]

Hide the silverware folks.

 

The Twins are a helluva lot better this year than they were last season. Yeah, they still can't contend against the best teams in baseball, but last year they would've been whipped by a decent girls softball team. That's improvement no matter how you slice it. At least this year we had hope. Last year we were contemplating suicide. Next season, if we cut some more deadweight and bring up a few more kids this year so they get some experience, we'll be legitimate division contenders without having to sell the farm. World Series? Two years out.

 

Patience, Grasshoppers. (Master Po).

 

Relax girls or you're going to give yourselves the drizzles. (Augustus MacCrae)

[Mike Sixel]

 

Rome wasn't built in a day. They've made progress. 

 

what have they done to fix the pitching, exactly? I'm genuinely curious.

 

Belisle (probably gone after this year)? Breslow (already gone, held onto him too long)? Re-upping Santiago (probably gone after this year)? Turley? Tepesch? Colon (gone after this year)? Garcia (Might be traded already, probably gone after this year)? Others?

 

What have they done to fix the pitching, this year, or next, that is building Rome?

[drjim]

what have they done to fix the pitching, exactly? I'm genuinely curious.

 

Belisle (probably gone after this year)? Breslow (already gone, held onto him too long)? Re-upping Santiago (probably gone after this year)? Turley? Tepesch? Colon (gone after this year)? Garcia (Might be traded already, probably gone after this year)? Others?

 

What have they done to fix the pitching, this year, or next, that is building Rome?

They've broken in Berrios and Mejia for starters.

[Major League Ready]

 

Moral victories! Meh, I'm tired of moral victories. Go get some players.

 

Mike, you are far better than such a parochial point of view.  You know all too well that the SP we need was not available last winter.  Bullpen arms brought a premium in both price and years which does not makes sense for a 100 loss team  with all of the great BP arms we have on the horizon

 

The next alternative is to buy in July.  You also are acutely aware that "going and getting" players at the deadline is a sellers market and very likely to cost the team in terms of overall talent in the long-run.  Buying high is very rarely a good idea and this team is not remotely close enough to justify the premium required to accelerate the addition of talent necessary to compete.

 

We could gut the farm system and perhaps make the playoffs the next couple years but we would not be true contenders against the likes of Houston and LA.  The price would be sucking for the next decade. 

 

No Thanks!   Sell Santana for a SP who will be as good or better during the next several years while our young players are coming into their prime.  Yes, it could be another Alex Meyer situation but it could also be a Jake Arietta situation.

 

Add a Santana type FA this winter or even after the 2018 season which at the moment looks like one of the best FA crops in a long time.   It would be nice to have the budget to go big in a year where the supply is much better.   

 

Get Garver up here.  Gonsalves and Romero might not be quite ready yet but get them up here as soon as they are ready.   Start auditioning all these bullpen arms that are close to ready.

 

Trade Dozier, Kintzler, and anyone else not named Berrios, Sano, Kepler, Buxton, Gordon, Gonsalves, Romero or Lewis if the offer is right.  I am not sure what happens in 2018 but it should be entertaining and we should be in great shape by 2019 and be able to sustain it for a decade.

[Otto von Ballpark]

They've broken in Berrios and Mejia for starters.

Which anybody would have done. (Same for Sano back to 3B, I have a hard time giving this FO any credit for that like a poster upthread, it's basically the minimum expectation.)

[Mike Sixel]

 

They've broken in Berrios and Mejia for starters.

 

Now we are giving the FO credit for guys already in the system? I don't even know how to respond to that.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Mike, you are far better than such a parochial point of view.  You know all too well that the SP we need was not available last winter.  Bullpen arms brought a premium in both price and years which does not makes sense for a 100 loss team  with all of the great BP arms we have on the horizon

 

The next alternative is to buy in July.  You also are acutely aware that "going and getting" players at the deadline is a sellers market and very likely to cost the team in terms of overall talent in the long-run.  Buying high is very rarely a good idea and this team is not remotely close enough to justify the premium required to accelerate the addition of talent necessary to compete.

 

We could gut the farm system and perhaps make the playoffs the next couple years but we would not be true contenders against the likes of Houston and LA.  The price would be sucking for the next decade. 

 

No Thanks!   Sell Santana for a SP who will be as good or better during the next several years while our young players are coming into their prime.  Yes, it could be another Alex Meyer situation but it could also be a Jake Arietta situation.

 

Add a Santana type FA this winter or even after the 2018 season which at the moment looks like one of the best FA crops in a long time.   It would be nice to have the budget to go big in a year where the supply is much better.   

 

Get Garver up here.  Gonsalves and Romero might not be quite ready yet but get them up here as soon as they are ready.   Start auditioning all these bullpen arms that are close to ready.

 

Trade Dozier, Kintzler, and anyone else not named Berrios, Sano, Kepler, Buxton, Gordon, Gonsalves, Romero or Lewis if the offer is right.  I am not sure what happens in 2018 but it should be entertaining and we should be in great shape by 2019 and be able to sustain it for a decade.

 

according to KLAW, this current trading season has been a buyer's market according to the execs he's talked to, so I'm not sure buying now is really over paying relative to the off season.

 

I was responding to "they almost won" comments, when I talked about moral victories.

 

there were decent RP available, certainly better options than Breslow. Some of them signed 1 year deals. There is almost no bad 1 year deal.

 

as for the rest, I've pretty much typed the same things at this point. But, the FO does not appear all that in love with Garver or the AA pitchers.

[drjim]

Which anybody would have done. (Same for Sano back to 3B, I have a hard time giving this FO any credit for that like a poster upthread, it's basically the minimum expectation.)

Obviously not foregone conclusions.