An Upside Down World

PseudoSABR · July 4, 2019

Earlier in the thread you were crying about false equivalency but now pudgy urbanites with replica helmets are akin Nazi soldiers, pencil necks wearing button downs and polos while holding tiki torches are apparently on par with lynch mobs of the past, and the KKK definitely holds the same prominence and has continued their same level of activity. Seems like an honest take.....

But sure, lets overlook the less than savory aspects of Antifa because they haven't been around as long as other hate groups....

Look, you rebutted each of my premises that suggested that they weren't equal which implies that you believe each movement is just as bad as the other. So I used sarcasm (largely because your response, as I said, ignored the history and scope of each movement's violence) to respond to those series of, again, false equivalencies.

And no one is overlooking Antifa. Each person who has responded has condemned what they've done, even though many of us still believe fascism is worthy of discrediting, though we wouldn't use the means Antifa does.

ewen21 · July 4, 2019

A gang of "white nationalists" beat up a black person. OK that is not good and I prefer that never happen.

On the other hand, what about when blacks assault whites? As a matter of fact, blacks commit violent crimes against whites at vastly higher rate. These statistics are easily found if you want to look. Is this not worthy of note? Or do we just want to get up in arms when a black person gets assaulted by whites?

We aren't ever getting anywhere in this discussion if the facts are going to be ignored.

Hosken Bombo Disco · July 4, 2019

A group of white men, self-described racists, beat up a black man, in the presence of police, and after some time to think about it, the police arrested the black man.

Hosken Bombo Disco · July 4, 2019

Maybe it’s time to switch to a lighter topic, like child prisons.

Craig Arko · July 4, 2019

Maybe it’s time to switch to a lighter topic, like child prisons.

Or panzers rolling in D.C.

Craig Arko · July 4, 2019

For those who enjoy a bit of light reading...

https://www.thephilosopher1923.org/stanley

Craig Arko · July 5, 2019

Thank goodness the Continental Army seized the airports during the Revolutionary War. Otherwise we might all be singing God Save the Queen at the start of our spoeting events.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D89YLHrZokw

KirbyDome89 · July 5, 2019

Look, you rebutted each of my premises that suggested that they weren't equal which implies that you believe each movement is just as bad as the other. So I used sarcasm (largely because your response, as I said, ignored the history and scope of each movement's violence) to respond to those series of, again, false equivalencies.

And no one is overlooking Antifa. Each person who has responded has condemned what they've done, even though many of us still believe fascism is worthy of discrediting, though we wouldn't use the means Antifa does.

In 2019 they probably are, which was what I was getting at with my rankings comment. We have masked thugs beating people in the street for failing to align with their political agenda (fascists) and then there's the other side beating people for having the wrong skin color (supremacists.) IMO trying to parse out which is more dangerous is an exercise in futility.

You keep falling back on the historical scope during this false equivalency tussle but you either fail to realize, or continue to ignore the fact that the extremist groups which we're talking about (KKK, Nazi party, ect.) aren't even close to what they were in terms of political powers. That's already been pointed out upthread. You'll have to explain to me how lumping tiki torches in Charlottesville in with a Nuremberg Rally isn't a false equivalency. That'd be a good place to start before calling other takes "dishonest."

I see everybody condemning the violence of Antifa, however, a lot of the condemnation is hedged with a "but....." Antifa isn't some random grouping of individuals who've been antagonized into countering violence with violence. I feel like a number of people in this thread have that impression. That's untrue. They're an organization that embodies exactly what they claim to be fighting, and they seek violence as eagerly as the extremists on the right.

PseudoSABR · July 5, 2019

In 2019 they probably are, which was what I was getting at with my rankings comment. We have masked thugs beating people in the street for failing to align with their political agenda (fascists) and then there's the other side beating people for having the wrong skin color (supremacists.) IMO trying to parse out which is more dangerous is an exercise in futility.

You keep falling back on the historical scope during this false equivalency tussle but you either fail to realize, or continue to ignore the fact that the extremist groups which we're talking about (KKK, Nazi party, ect.) aren't even close to what they were in terms of political powers. That's already been pointed out upthread. You'll have to explain to me how lumping tiki torches in Charlottesville in with a Nuremberg Rally isn't a false equivalency. That'd be a good place to start before calling other takes "dishonest."

I see everybody condemning the violence of Antifa, however, a lot of the condemnation is hedged with a "but....." Antifa isn't some random grouping of individuals who've been antagonized into countering violence with violence. I feel like a number of people in this thread have that impression. That's untrue. They're an organization that embodies exactly what they claim to be fighting, and they seek violence as eagerly as the extremists on the right.

Charlottesville was in the last couple years, bub. We see white supremacist iconography every day, flying from the back of pick up trucks in nearly every American city or out of the mouth of our blathering president. And no, Antifa violence isn't overlooked, because people like you will be sure to come out biannually when they do happen to say, "See the left is violent too" while the rest of the year you'll stay silent about concentration camps on the border (a policy that can only have its roots in white supremacy) or police shootings of minorities, and on and on.

KirbyDome89 · July 9, 2019

Charlottesville was in the last couple years, bub. We see white supremacist iconography every day, flying from the back of pick up trucks in nearly every American city or out of the mouth of our blathering president. And no, Antifa violence isn't overlooked, because people like you will be sure to come out biannually when they do happen to say, "See the left is violent too" while the rest of the year you'll stay silent about concentration camps on the border (a policy that can only have its roots in white supremacy) or police shootings of minorities, and on and on.

That's skirting my point; which is that tiki torches 2 years ago aren't akin to rallies in Nazi Germany. You insist on lumping the two together, yet a comparison of violence between two extremist groups in 2019 is apparently a false equivalency. If you can't see the distinction it's because you're choosing not to.

Luckily there are plenty of, "people like me," who will continue to point out the hypocrisy of justifying violence from one extreme while decrying it from the other. I'm glad I'm not so tethered to identify politics that I cling to a warped view of what Antifa is, and feel the need to constantly qualify any in house criticism.

PseudoSABR · July 9, 2019

That's skirting my point; which is that tiki torches 2 years ago aren't akin to rallies in Nazi Germany. You insist on lumping the two together, yet a comparison of violence between two extremist groups in 2019 is apparently a false equivalency. If you can't see the distinction it's because you're choosing not to.

Luckily there are plenty of, "people like me," who will continue to point out the hypocrisy of justifying violence from one extreme while decrying it from the other. I'm glad I'm not so tethered to identify politics that I cling to a warped view of what Antifa is, and feel the need to constantly qualify any in house criticism.

1) I never equated Charlottesville to Nazi Germany (though it is worth noting someone actually died in Charlottesville). (And if you don't see the differences between Antifa and the history and present of violence from white supremacists and other right wing movements, it's because you're choosing not to.)

2) I, nor anyone here, justified the violence from Antifa. Violence sucks. From anywhere. Thank god they haven't killed anyone.

Way to beat up those straw men! A true hero, lucky us. Don Quixote says hi.

Mr. Brooks · July 9, 2019

2) I, nor anyone here, justified the violence from Antifa. Violence sucks. From anywhere. Thank god they haven't killed anyone.

Way to beat up those straw men! A true hero, lucky us. Don Quixote says hi.

That's not true. The following was posted by Hosken Bombo Disco:

According to the link Vanimal supplied me, Antifa is fighting against fascists and neo-nazis, and is a response to the violence coming from the right. Which all sounds right to me.

So maybe you, Vanimal, or Mr Brooks can remind me of why that is a bad thing, or why Marshall and Eisenhower were wrong to fight against that 75 years ago. Thanks in advance.

Hosken Bombo Disco · July 9, 2019

That's not true. The following was posted by Hosken Bombo Disco:
According to the link Vanimal supplied me, Antifa is fighting against fascists and neo-nazis, and is a response to the violence coming from the right. Which all sounds right to me.
So maybe you, Vanimal, or Mr Brooks can remind me of why that is a bad thing, or why Marshall and Eisenhower were wrong to fight against that 75 years ago. Thanks in advance.

I’m still waiting for an answer.

Hosken Bombo Disco · July 9, 2019

2) I, nor anyone here, justified the violence from Antifa

This is true for me. I do not justify violence from Antifa. Though I can understand how other posters with other points of view might mis-read my words.

Nazis and white supremicists are violent, they court violence, and there are individuals from the opposite end of the spectrum (anarchists, or Antifa) who are violent against this group. Am I understanding this correctly?

Question for you, what are we supposed to do about this normalization of violence in daily life?

MMMordabito · July 9, 2019

We see white supremacist iconography every day, flying from the back of pick up trucks in nearly every American city

I'm making an assumption that this is in regard to the Confederate flag. If that is a false assumption, then disregard.

Just because many white supremacists use the Confederate flag as their symbol doesn't mean that everyone who displays it is a white supremacist. I had family in Selma, AL for a decade. There is a lot of white supremacy in that part of the country, but there are also plenty of people trying to bridge the divide that still display that flag. It's a southern pride thing. Naivety or possibly insensitivity are in play, but that's far from white supremacy. I'm skeptical when I see that flag up here in the cities and would more likely assume the worst.

ashbury · July 9, 2019

I'm making an assumption that this is in regard to the Confederate flag. If that is a false assumption, then disregard.

Just because many white supremacists use the Confederate flag as their symbol doesn't mean that everyone who displays it is a white supremacist. I had family in Selma, AL for a decade. There is a lot of white supremacy in that part of the country, but there are also plenty of people trying to bridge the divide that still display that flag. It's a southern pride thing. Naivety or possibly insensitivity are in play, but that's far from white supremacy. I'm skeptical when I see that flag up here in the cities and would more likely assume the worst.

There's a lot of confusion about the term "Confederate flag". Look at Wikipedia or other (possibly better) sources for more detail, but in summary...

Here's the first flag of the Confederacy:

Not too many truck drivers fly this one, in my experience. The one I see most of the time is more like this:

That's a BATTLE flag (one of several similar designs for the various state armies/militias). It was incorporated into later iterations of the national flag, but not by itself (usually on a white background).

When you see it in that form, they are celebrating battle, war, armed rebellion, whatever you want to call it. If they wanted to celebrate "southern heritage," "southern pride," "genteel way of life," etc they could just as accurately fly the flag they flew in 1859:

http://www.usflag.org/historical/33star.gif

But they don't. So no, I don't buy the posturing about a flag that is pointedly flown to intimidate.

MMMordabito · July 9, 2019

But they don't. So no, I don't buy the posturing about a flag that is pointedly flown to intimidate.

Hasty generalizations still abound.

Squirrel · July 9, 2019

Hasty generalizations still abound.

On all sides.

PseudoSABR · July 9, 2019

Question for you, what are we supposed to do about this normalization of violence in daily life?

Hold those closest aligned with our beliefs accountable.

I remember being at protest during Bush's presidency and these gutter punk kids through rocks at Bush's cavalcade, I told them to quit it, along with a bunch of other people and they stopped. I imagine this is more difficult with Antifa, but other liberals need to work to protect whomever Antifa is attacking.

ashbury · July 9, 2019

Hasty generalizations still abound.

Perhaps somewhere, but not in the post you quoted.

Squirrel · July 9, 2019

Hold those closest aligned with our beliefs accountable.

I remember being at protest during Bush's presidency and these gutter punk kids through rocks at Bush's cavalcade, I told them to quit it, along with a bunch of other people and they stopped. I imagine this is more difficult with Antifa, but other liberals need to work to protect whomever Antifa is attacking.

Yeah ... I've been at protests and rallies ... and when things start to get the least bit unruly, I have said to those near me ... 'I'm out ... this isn't the answer ... we've already made our point, let's not ruin it.' Then leave, quickly.

PseudoSABR · July 9, 2019

I'm making an assumption that this is in regard to the Confederate flag. If that is a false assumption, then disregard.

Just because many white supremacists use the Confederate flag as their symbol doesn't mean that everyone who displays it is a white supremacist. I had family in Selma, AL for a decade. There is a lot of white supremacy in that part of the country, but there are also plenty of people trying to bridge the divide that still display that flag. It's a southern pride thing. Naivety or possibly insensitivity are in play, but that's far from white supremacy. I'm skeptical when I see that flag up here in the cities and would more likely assume the worst.

Why would any one choose to represent their southern pride with something a great many people associate with racism? Stubbornness?

There are contexts where a noose might have be used as symbol for suicide awareness or something...but the reason no one would ever pick a noose for that purpose is its association with lynching/racism.

If you fly the confederate/battle flag, you openly court the view that you might be racist (or at least condone the belief in others). Get a flag of a peach or pecan or your college football team or anything else if you want to show your southern pride.

Mike Sixel · July 9, 2019

That flag was almost never flown until the civil Rights movement. It's not about pride....

MMMordabito · July 9, 2019

That flag was almost never flown until the civil Rights movement. It's not about pride....

Hahaha ... there's another one

Squirrel · July 9, 2019

Hahaha ... there's another one

Do you have something to refute that statement? If so, I’d be interested.

MMMordabito · July 9, 2019

Why would any one choose to represent their southern pride with something a great many people associate with racism? Stubbornness?

There are contexts where a noose might have be used as symbol for suicide awareness or something...but the reason no one would ever pick a noose for that purpose is its association with lynching/racism.

If you fly the confederate/battle flag, you openly court the view that you might be racist (or at least condone the belief in others). Get a flag of a peach or pecan or your college football team or anything else if you want to show your southern pride.

Probably because they don't give two s#$ts what a bunch of northerners think.

You lack perspective but somehow still seem obliged to judge.

Tell the college football team idea to an Ole Miss grad .... They get the same general flak.

MMMordabito · July 9, 2019

Do you have something to refute that statement? If so, I’d be interested.

I don't have the time to list them all.

Just start with some aircraft carriers in WW2 ... I guess everyone on them was racist .... LOLOLOLOL

Craig Arko · July 9, 2019

Sigh.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Airmen

Hosken Bombo Disco · July 9, 2019

Not to be confused with

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment

ashbury · July 9, 2019

Just start with some aircraft carriers in WW2 ... I guess everyone on them was racist .... LOLOLOLOL

Didn't find much, with Google search combining terms like "confederate flag" and "aircraft carriers" and "world war", and I've got other things to do than conduct a snipe hunt, so you'll need to locate whatever references you have in mind if you want me to pay it any attention. Best I could find was a reference in a book, to some ostensibly friendly banter among various military men where sometimes a flag would be flown. (Page 54 if the link below doesn't take you there.)

https://books.google.com/books?id=u-uPue9XdP4C&pg=PA54&lpg=PA54&dq=aircraft+carriers+%22World+war%22+%22confederate+flag%22&source=bl&ots=_NYdnKx_GY&sig=ACfU3U1YZQDZHCYPvInyrD80RgeIg0CBKw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjqnPv1vKjjAhVjleAKHQmeAwYQ6AEwCXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=aircraft%20carriers%20%22World%20war%22%20%22confederate%20flag%22&f=false