An Upside Down World

[Mr. Brooks]

Okay. Antifa or what ever sect of it needs to be condemned. That said I see a false equivalency on a number of levels: 1) kind/degree of violence 2) frequency of incidents 3) organization outside of social media 4) historical roots, and most importantly 5) normalization.

 

Some are pretty eager to yell: see the Left does it too, without taking the above considerations in mind.

Is calling modern white nationalists the same as Hitler's Nazi war machine a false equivalency?

[Squirrel]

But hey kids, violence IS the answer, collateral damage be dammed, so long as you think you are on the right side. Screw Dr. King and Ghandi.

As I said above, I don’t condone the violence. But I also don’t think they are equal. The ‘whataboutism’ in how this was originally presented I think is wrong. I think that we can believe the violence is wrong and that it should be reported and that we should work to find other solutions, but I also think that it’s a false equivalency equating the two groups ... the right has nazis and white supremacists, the left has antifa. That is a false equivalence. They do not share opposite ends of the same stage, not one iota. One group is highly organized with a hateful, evil purpose. They openly recruit and build and have a specific mission with specific targets. And they have a place in one of the political parties and seek to have their agenda enacted governmentally. The other just shows up to combat the other. They have no place in anyone’s political party, nor do they want a place. They aren’t organized. Again, I don’t condone it, I don’t think it’s the right way and is misguided, but the two are in no way equals. And Van (sorry, van, but you did), served this up as one big dose of ‘whataboutism’ that is a false equivalence. At least that’s how I see it. And one is worse than the other. I’m not justifying violence of any kind by saying that, either.

[Vanimal46]

Pretty sure you said that Dem candidates not mentioning Antia is the same as what POTUS is doing literally by listening to, employing, and supporting white supremacists....

Not my intention if that's how it read... I was simply talking about 2 isolated incidents where violence was involved. The one in Charlottesville received tons of coverage and cries to impeach the current President because of his comments towards the alt-right.

 

The incident in Portland with Antifa is barely a blip on the radar.

[Vanimal46]

Cool. If you pick the left side violence is okay. Carole, you said multiple times you don't condone the violence, then write multiple sentences after justifying their position.

 

It should be very simple. Violence at protests are bad, should be called out, and eliminated. Full stop.

[Craig Arko]

 

Cool. If you pick the left side violence is okay. Carole, you said multiple times you don't condone the violence, then write multiple sentences after justifying their position.

It should be very simple. Violence at protests are bad, should be called out, and eliminated. Full stop.

 

https://www.voanews.com/east-asia/us-salutes-heroes-tiananmen-square-protests-killed-chinese-soldiers

[Squirrel]

 

Cool. If you pick the left side violence is okay. Carole, you said multiple times you don't condone the violence, then write multiple sentences after justifying their position.

It should be very simple. Violence at protests are bad, should be called out, and eliminated. Full stop.

I think I said it should be reported, and stopped. And I think I said I don't condone it. But you are still equalizing it, and it is not equal. By saying and believing that they are not equal entities is NOT justifying it. You want it justified by the equalization. I'm sorry you fail to see the difference.

[Mr. Brooks]

Nobody is saying they are equal.

You can't have false equivalency if nobody is saying they are equal.

Saying two things are bad isn't saying they are equally bad.

[Squirrel]

 

Nobody is saying they are equal.
You can't have false equivalency if nobody is saying they are equal.
Saying two things are bad isn't saying they are equally bad.

 

I didn't think the original post that sparked this discussion was very clear on that. That was more what I objected to. And I don't condone violence nor am I justifying it, as was suggested (not by you), it's just different from all aspects of it, except that the result is violence. Whether or not media is intentionally shielding one or the other, I can't say. Maybe they are from an appearance stand point. Or maybe they, too, give more time to the worse of the two? Again, I don't know. I know on my FB page I rail far more on the activities of white supremacists and American nazis, and groups of this nature, than I do antifa. Part of that is that one has a much larger proliferation of activities and membership than the other. Again, that speaks to one being very organized on a lot of different fronts, where the other just seems to show up here and there. It's not that I don't decry their methods, there are just way fewer instances. In that regard, I'm not sure how to ... give them equal attention in the press and by various political candidates.

 

All in all ... I don't think you and I are really that far apart here, except perhaps on some of the finer points.

[MMMordabito]

 

No, violence is not justifiable nor the answer, at least not imo. But one side is worse than the other, also imo, and the violence on both sides is not equal, so yes, the violence on one side is worse than the other. That is not justifying one over the other, because as I said, I don’t condone violence. Maybe to you it sounds like justification. But one side is evil. The other I think is misguided in how to fight it. And some small part of me, despite my not condoning the violence, despite knowing how it’s wrong, there is a small part of me that wants one side to win over the other, even if the method is misguided. It doesn’t excuse it and I’m not excusing it, but it is a false equivalent by the way I see it.

 

Hahaha ... You think people who want to suppress freedom of speech and the press are only "misguided"? They are actually what they think they are fighting against: Fascists.  Equally evil.

[MMMordabito]

 

I think I said it should be reported, and stopped. And I think I said I don't condone it. But you are still equalizing it, and it is not equal. By saying and believing that they are not equal entities is NOT justifying it. You want it justified by the equalization. I'm sorry you fail to see the difference.

 

Except that you said you hoped one side would win --- which would require more violence.

[Craig Arko]

Except that you said you hoped one side would win --- which would require more violence.

In your mind, that’s the only option?

 

There’s a self fulfilling prophecy hiding in there somewhere.

[Vanimal46]

I think I said it should be reported, and stopped. And I think I said I don't condone it. But you are still equalizing it, and it is not equal. By saying and believing that they are not equal entities is NOT justifying it. You want it justified by the equalization. I'm sorry you fail to see the difference.

The only thing I want equal in this is news/media coverage and acknowledgement from our leaders. Extremes on both sides are evil and only causing a divide with a majority who sits in the middle.

 

I'm not a conspiracy theorist here, but I do see why some Republicans believe the media is biased when examples like this pop up.

[MMMordabito]

 

In your mind, that’s the only option?

There’s a self fulfilling prophecy hiding in there somewhere.

 

I'm not the one who said "even if the method is misguided".

[Squirrel]

The only thing I want equal in this is news/media coverage and acknowledgement from our leaders. Extremes on both sides are evil and only causing a divide with a majority who sits in the middle.

 

I'm not a conspiracy theorist here, but I do see why some Republicans believe the media is biased when examples like this pop up.

Maybe the media doesn’t treat them equally and report them equally is because their activities are not equal nor as wide spread, not as organized, nor as evil. Sorry, while I don’t condone the means, fighting fascism, white supremacy and naziism is not evil. Fascism, white supremacy and naziism is, on the other hand, evil. Again, you are equalizing something that isn’t. Antifa activities are not on the scale nor as wide spread as the other. We will just have to disagree because what you ask is equalization where there is none, imo.

[Craig Arko]

“The man who raises a fist has run out of ideas.” - H.G. Wells

 

We need some more and better ideas.

 

Neither fascism nor anarchy are good ones, right? Can we agree on this?

[Vanimal46]

Maybe the media doesn’t treat them equally and report them equally is because their activities are not equal nor as wide spread, not as organized, nor as evil. Sorry, while I don’t condone the means, fighting fascism, white supremacy and naziism is not evil. Fascism, white supremacy and naziism is, on the other hand, evil. Again, you are equalizing something that isn’t. Antifa activities are not on the scale nor as wide spread as the other. We will just have to disagree because what you ask is equalization where there is none, imo.

I consider anyone wearing masks and hoodies to cover their identities and assaulting people in public with crow bars to be evil... To each their own. We're just talking around each other now so we can move on.

[MMMordabito]

 

Sorry, while I don’t condone the means, fighting fascism, white supremacy and naziism is not evil. 

 

Fighting fascism may not be evil, if you aren't using fascism to fight it.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Is calling modern white nationalists the same as Hitler's Nazi war machine a false equivalency?

Well, because they aren't two opposed factions, I wouldn't use the term "false equivalency" but rather something like an exaggeration or even hyperbole, because they are different points along, albeit the same, spectrum.  That said, if white nationalism is left unchecked, what you end up getting is something resembling the Nazi party.

[Mr. Brooks]

Well, because they aren't two opposed factions, I wouldn't use the term "false equivalency" but rather something like an exaggeration or even hyperbole, because they are different points along, albeit the same, spectrum. That said, if white nationalism is left unchecked, what you end up getting is something resembling the Nazi party.

Who is asking for it to be unchecked?

 

Not only is Antifa not going to fix it, it isn't going to help.

[Craig Arko]

On the bright side this thread reminds me that Stranger Things season 3 comes out tomorrow. Won’t be watching tanks damage the Lincoln Memorial.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Who is asking for it to be unchecked?

Not only is Antifa not going to fix it, it isn't going to help.

I'm not defending Antifa, nor am I accusing anyone of saying it should go unchecked; I'm pointing out that there was a false equivalency being made between the violence of antifa and white nationalism, one that is materially different from the comparison of white nationalism to nazism.  

[PseudoSABR]

 

On the bright side this thread reminds me that Stranger Things season 3 comes out tomorrow. Won’t be watching tanks damage the Lincoln Memorial.

Cool. Thanks for that update.  Though I'm not entirely sure that you aren't being sarcastic. 

[Craig Arko]

Cool. Thanks for that update.  Though I'm not entirely sure that you aren't being sarcastic.

 

No, I’ll really be watching Stranger Things and not the Red Square re-enactment.

[PseudoSABR]

 

No, I’ll really be watching Stranger Things and not the Red Square re-enactment.

Both are strange things. Which is stranger?

[KirbyDome89]

 

One group is highly organized with a hateful, evil purpose. They openly recruit and build and have a specific mission with specific targets. And they have a place in one of the political parties and seek to have their agenda enacted governmentally. 

That description fits Antifa just as easily.

 

I don't why the notion that Antifa lacks organization or isn't on par with extremist groups on the right continues to persist in this thread. You might not encounter them as often in your social circles, or in consuming your preferred media outlets, but couldn't it be a simple bubble issue? You've stated that you spend time seeking out extremist groups on the right to decry their actions; I promise you if you put in some time you'll see Antifa isn't the "random group that shows up here and there," or the "unorganized group that lacks a political party or agenda," they're being portrayed as. 

 

As far as justification goes, when you set a morality scale by saying things like "one side is evil, the other is simply misguided," or claiming violence from one side is worse than the other, or admitting to a rooting interest, albeit small, in one side "winning," you are justifying the actions of Antifa. 

 

I'm right there with you when it comes to distaste for fascism, but what I can't understand is why Antifa is consistently left out of that grouping when they show, time after time, that they're eager to meet any opinion they deem disagreeable with violence. 

[KirbyDome89]

 

Okay.  Antifa or what ever sect of it needs to be condemned.  That said I see a false equivalency on a number of levels: 1) kind/degree of violence 2) frequency of incidents 3) organization outside of social media 4) historical roots, and most importantly 5) normalization.  

 

Some are pretty eager to yell: see the Left does it too, without taking the above considerations in mind.

1) White nationalists beating a black man in the streets vs fascists beating reporters with opposing opinions in the streets? Do we need to do a ranking scale for which type of hatred is worse, or is it enough to agree that attacking an individual for merely existing or having a dissenting opinion are close enough to lump together under the banner of "wrong?" As far as the degree of violence is concerned, there are plenty of homemade weapons and instances of unprovoked violence from both sides so how is the line being drawn?

 

2) Antifa goes where the alt right travels and vice versa. 

 

3) The platform for organization is totally irrelevant. Let's be honest, Antifa is composed mainly of my age demographic, young men in their mid 20s to early 30s. I'd wager the alt right groups can't claim the same demographic statistics, nor do they likely use social platforms with the same general frequency/proficiency. 

 

4) Are we arguing fascism vs. nazism here? 

 

5) Violence from one group is certainly being normalized or at the very least tucked under the rug. 

[PseudoSABR]

 

1) White nationalists beating a black man in the streets vs fascists beating reporters with opposing opinions in the streets? Do we need to do a ranking scale for which type of hatred is worse, or is it enough to agree that attacking an individual for merely existing or having a dissenting opinion are close enough to lump together under the banner of "wrong?" As far as the degree of violence is concerned, there are plenty of homemade weapons and instances of unprovoked violence from both sides so how is the line being drawn?

 

2) Antifa goes where the alt right travels and vice versa. 

 

3) The platform for organization is totally irrelevant. Let's be honest, Antifa is composed mainly of my age demographic, young men in their mid 20s to early 30s. I'd wager the alt right groups can't claim the same demographic statistics, nor do they likely use social platforms with the same general frequency/proficiency. 

 

4) Are we arguing fascism vs. nazism here? 

 

5) Violence from one group is certainly being normalized or at the very least tucked under the rug. 

Yeah, Antifa has been beating up right-wingers for nearly a century, putting flaming anarchy signs in Republican front yards, and hanging the ones they capture by their toes. They've even got their own flag they fly off the back ends of their Prius. They've got their own cable station and nationally syndicated radio shows!  And Biden just the other day was complimenting their efforts!   

 

You can decry the violent act of Antifa without being dishonest about the history and scope of the violence that hails under the banner of white nationalism.  Seriously.

[KirbyDome89]

 

Yeah, Antifa has been beating up right-wingers for nearly a century, putting flaming anarchy signs in Republican front yards, and hanging the ones they capture by their toes. They've even got their own flag they fly off the back ends of their Prius. They've got their own cable station and nationally syndicated radio shows!  And Biden just the other day was complimenting their efforts!   

 

You can decry the violent act of Antifa without being dishonest about the history and scope of the violence that hails under the banner of white nationalism.  Seriously.

Earlier in the thread you were crying about false equivalency but now pudgy urbanites with replica helmets are akin Nazi soldiers, pencil necks wearing button downs and polos while holding tiki torches are apparently on par with lynch mobs of the past, and the KKK definitely holds the same prominence and has continued their same level of activity. Seems like an honest take.....

 

But sure, lets overlook the less than savory aspects of Antifa because they haven't been around as long as other hate groups....

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

But sure, lets overlook the less than savory aspects of Antifa because they haven't been around as long as other hate groups....

You are wrong. These individuals have been around just as long, but now that they have a name, they are being talked about. And now, ironically, people are complaining about them not being talked about.

[KirbyDome89]

 

You are wrong. These individuals have been around just as long, but now that they have a name, they are being talked about. And now, ironically, people are complaining about them not being talked about.

There has always been opposition to fascism but this US based version of Antifa that we're talking about is relatively new to the game.