Sonny Gray Trade Target?

[70charger]

 

Arrieta was one of the best pitchers in baseball the last 3 seasons with the Cubs.

 

2.42 ERA (2nd in baseball) with a 2.72 FIP (Tied for 2nd) and a 3.01 xFIP (5th)

 

Yes, it is disparaging to call that very good. It is elite and he wasn't going to simply revert back to his Baltimore days if he moved to the AL.

His age is valid concern going forward but he has been an elite pitcher (until this season). No doubts about it.

 

I agree with your position generally, but complaining about calling someone "very good" REALLY seems like nitpicking. I read the context, and it didn't seem like it was damning with faint praise. 

 

I'm all about defining our terms, but even without context it seems hard to complain about that phrasing. I sort of think that there's too much arguing over semantics on this board as opposed to arguing over substance. 

[kab21]

 

I agree with your position generally, but complaining about calling someone "very good" REALLY seems like nitpicking. I read the context, and it didn't seem like it was damning with faint praise. 

 

I'm all about defining our terms, but even without context it seems hard to complain about that phrasing. I sort of think that there's too much arguing over semantics on this board as opposed to arguing over substance. 

Saying that Arrieta would be bad in the AL because he was bad in the AL before was not semantics and that was the greater point.

 

The greater point is that this board will pick apart any pitcher even if they are basically perfect and say not good enough while the team is running AAAA starters out there.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Saying that Arrieta would be bad in the AL because he was bad in the AL before was not semantics and that was the greater point.

 

The greater point is that this board will pick apart any pitcher even if they are basically perfect and say not good enough while the team is running AAAA starters out there.

 

I think the bigger issue is the cost to get someone, especially in July. This team is a pretender. They are playing meaningful ball in late June, which of itself is a God send, but we all see the writing on the wall and don't see the point in paying a lot of prospect talent for someone who will ultimately not help the team...

 

now that said, this needs to be addressed this offseason.

[laloesch]

 

Saying that Arrieta would be bad in the AL because he was bad in the AL before was not semantics and that was the greater point.

 

The greater point is that this board will pick apart any pitcher even if they are basically perfect and say not good enough while the team is running AAAA starters out there.

 

It's all a moot discussion anyways.  No-way the A's give up Gray.   That is a pie in the sky acquisition by this team unless they were willing to give up Sano and one other piece. 

 

Every team the Twins try and approach about a quality starter is probably going to ask for Sano point blank. Buxton is not really on the radar anymore given his atrocious major league numbers so far.  

 

What else is left as trade bate?  Dozier, Kepler, Santana, Polanco?  Everyone is convinced that Dozier is not tradable, that Kepler is too inexperienced, that Santana is too old and Polanco is playing out of position.  If that's all true there's not enough pieces to pry away a good starter from another franchise without blowing up the rebuild.  

 

I've said it before and i'll say it again.  This situation is looking more and more like the early 2000's Rangers.  A team that had all the hitting in the world but virtually no pitching.  By the time the pitching started to arrive their hitting core had started to break up.  Hate to say it, but the Twins should have drafted a couple of college arms early in the draft this year at #1 and #35 instead of a toolsey shortstop and outfielder who looks destined to DH.  Just my opinion.

[drjim]

It's all a moot discussion anyways. No-way the A's give up Gray. That is a pie in the sky acquisition by this team unless they were willing to give up Sano and one other piece.

 

Every team the Twins try and approach about a quality starter is probably going to ask for Sano point blank. Buxton is not really on the radar anymore given his atrocious major league numbers so far.

 

What else is left as trade bate? Dozier, Kepler, Santana, Polanco? Everyone is convinced that Dozier is not tradable, that Kepler is too inexperienced, that Santana is too old and Polanco is playing out of position. If that's all true there's not enough pieces to pry away a good starter from another franchise without blowing up the rebuild.

 

I've said it before and i'll say it again. This situation is looking more and more like the early 2000's Rangers. A team that had all the hitting in the world but virtually no pitching. By the time the pitching started to arrive their hitting core had started to break up. Hate to say it, but the Twins should have drafted a couple of college arms early in the draft this year at #1 and #35 instead of a toolsey shortstop and outfielder who looks destined to DH. Just my opinion.

Everything else might be right, but the A's absolutely want to move Gray this summer. And they aren't silly enough to ask for Sano.

[KidBro]

I'd rather get really BOLD.  Sell a few pieces this year.  Flip the calendar to June/July 2018, change the pitcher that we are trading for from Sonny Gray to Gerrit Cole, which will certainly cost us more, but that's okay.  B/c I mostly agree Gray is a middling #2 or 3.  Cole and Berrios sounds like a GM1 and 2 starters that can go toe to toe.   

 

Then hopefully after a successful run in the 2018 playoffs we can Offer 100M for 7 years (???) and our new best friend agent Scott Boras agrees to the terms and Gerrit Cole goes into Cooperstown a Minnesota Twin.  

[laloesch]

 

Everything else might be right, but the A's absolutely want to move Gray this summer. And they aren't silly enough to ask for Sano.

 

mmmm.....that's debatable.

 

I guess the question is whether or not the guy will stay healthy. 

He's had neck and forearm issues for a season and a half. If he can't stay healthy and return to 2015 numbers then yeah he's not worth Sano.  That said the A's aren't going to give him away not when you have the Cubs and Yankees driving up the price for coveted starting pitching.

[drjim]

mmmm.....that's debatable.

 

I guess the question is whether or not the guy will stay healthy.

He's had neck and forearm issues for a season and a half. If he can't stay healthy and return to 2015 numbers then yeah he's not worth Sano. That said the A's aren't going to give him away not when you have the Cubs and Yankees driving up the price for coveted starting pitching.

I agree he won't be cheap, but Sano is one of the most valuable assets in baseball right now.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

mmmm.....that's debatable.

 

I guess the question is whether or not the guy will stay healthy. 

He's had neck and forearm issues for a season and a half. If he can't stay healthy and return to 2015 numbers then yeah he's not worth Sano.  That said the A's aren't going to give him away not when you have the Cubs and Yankees driving up the price for coveted starting pitching.

Even a healthy Gray isn't worth Sano. We're talking two years of control against four years of control.

 

And Sano is more of a guaranteed performer going forward.

[MangLitch]

 

Even a healthy Gray isn't worth Sano. We're talking two years of control against four years of control.

 

And Sano is more of a guaranteed performer going forward.

 

Oh Boy.... Now you have done it.... Famous last words

[mudcat14]

Rosario, Gordon & perhaps Jorge, enough to net Gray & Doolittle?

[Mr. Brooks]

I'm going to be pretty disappointed if Gordon is traded.

I think he'll be a perennial all star caliber SS.

[drjim]

Rosario, Gordon & perhaps Jorge, enough to net Gray & Doolittle?

Strikes me as pretty close. Probably need a better 3rd piece (Gonsalves?) and probably a lesser 4th piece (Reed or Curtiss?)

[drjim]

I'm going to be pretty disappointed if Gordon is traded.

I think he'll be a perennial all star caliber SS.

I agree, but I would consider moving him for the right, controllable starter.

 

I don't think that is Gray, and not sure who else is really out there.

[Linus]

Based on what I'm reading it sounds as if it is questionable if Gordon can stick at ss. If that's true in would now consider him a trade piece.

[drivlikejehu]

I'm not sure that I understand why anyone thinks the Twins can afford to deal away good position players. Their position players are just average as a group and they don't have all that much depth, either.

 

Apart from Sano, the Twins appear to have zero impact hitters moving forward, except maybe in the short-term if Dozier gets hot again. Longer-term, who is there? Kepler and Rosario have decent potential as all-around players but neither is an impact hitter. Buxton can have solid overall value due to defense but obviously isn't a lineup asset for the time being.

 

Gordon is pretty much the only help in the relatively near-term, and he's probably not an impact hitter so much as a solid all-around guy at SS or 2B. 

 

So I'm at a loss as to how the Twins can become contenders by trading away assets when they already are short of talent in basically every possible area.

[jorgenswest]

I think the A's will get a return that includes a very good starting pitching prospect. I am not sure the Twins compete well in that arena. Can the A's find better return than Romero?

[laloesch]

 

Rosario, Gordon & perhaps Jorge, enough to net Gray & Doolittle?

 

A's are looking for outfielders and pitching prospects.  As an organization they are loaded with IF's.  I'd dangle either Buxton, Granite + another prospect or Rosario, Granite + another prospect.

[kab21]

The A's will certainly find a better pitching prospect or OF prospect than the Twins can offer. But I think they still target the best overall prospect group.

The problem with saying 'I'm not sure Gray is that guy' is that 'Who is that guy?' is then an unanswerable question. If a pitcher had 2.5 years of control and didn't have the Q marks that Gray has then Gordon/Romero (one example) isn't even half of the package.

 

Nick Gordon has started to cool off and still has a really high BAPIP. I think he is quite overrated by this board. He is a very good prospect but overrated.

Trading Buxton is an interesting dilemma. I think he will follow Gomez and Hicks paths towards being a late blooming All-Star. In fact I think Buxton still has a better chance to be an All-Star level player than Gordon. 

 

I wonder if Gordon/Jorge/Granite could get it done. They would probably want Romero or Gonsalves though.

[laloesch]

 

The A's will certainly find a better pitching prospect or OF prospect than the Twins can offer. But I think they still target the best overall prospect group.

The problem with saying 'I'm not sure Gray is that guy' is that 'Who is that guy?' is then an unanswerable question. If a pitcher had 2.5 years of control and didn't have the Q marks that Gray has then Gordon/Romero (one example) isn't even half of the package.

 

Nick Gordon has started to cool off and still has a really high BAPIP. I think he is quite overrated by this board. He is a very good prospect but overrated.

Trading Buxton is an interesting dilemma. I think he will follow Gomez and Hicks paths towards being a late blooming All-Star. In fact I think Buxton still has a better chance to be an All-Star level player than Gordon. 

 

I wonder if Gordon/Jorge/Granite could get it done. They would probably want Romero or Gonsalves though.

 

He does strikeout 7- 9 per 9 innings.  That's nothing to scoff at.  2016 was a tough season for him, but the prior two full seasons (keep in mind he was first called up in 2013) were great.  I think he's still on the upward trend and hasn't reached his peak potential yet.  Could be a good acquisition for the right price.  Solid #2 / #3 starter IMO.  If the A's asked for Buxton and Granite + one other lower level prospect, i'd probably do it. 

[clone52]

I'd do something like this.  Not sure if it would make it happen.

 

Rosario (or Granite if the A's demanded it)

One of Gonsalves/Romero/Jorge)

Wander Javier

[drivlikejehu]

The Twins aren't going to trade Buxton. Ideas like that are just internet forum stuff without any connection to the real-world Twins. 

[laloesch]

 

Saying that Arrieta would be bad in the AL because he was bad in the AL before was not semantics and that was the greater point.

 

The greater point is that this board will pick apart any pitcher even if they are basically perfect and say not good enough while the team is running AAAA starters out there.

 

Yep.   And never draft a pitcher in the first round, just "TOOLSEY INFIELDERS" and Outfielders / soon to be DH's because pitching prospects are "JUST TO RISKY AND NEVER TURN OUT".