Berrios and the Front Office

[rghrbek]

 

I don't get the Mejia thing. I get the Tepesch thing even less.

 

But if Duffey is going to return to the rotation, it's going to take a little time. He's not a spot starter at this point. I suspect the Twins will want to go more long-term with him and give him a week or two notice to adjust back to starting.

 

If you put a guy in the bullpen and tell him to go one inning at a time, he's not going to be ready at a moment's notice to start a baseball game. Before last night, Duffey hadn't pitched more than five outs since April 17th.

 

It's my opinion the Twins should have called up Berrios or Mejia for Tepesch's start. But if Tepesch only makes a couple of starts (preferably just one), it's not the end of the world provided the front office has a longer term plan that needs a bit more time to play out. At this point, I hope they have a plan for all three of Mejia, Berrios, and Duffey and I don't really care which one gets the call first, I only hope it happens soon.

 

 

So, for the sake of argument, let's say Tepecsh gets rocked on Friday and then either released or moved to the pen (not sure if he has options left).  Who pitches next?  If they call Berrios up, do we really think he figured out his command like Molly suggested in the one start?  

 

Or would it imply that Molly's arousal for certain players is a huge fault?

 

That's my worry here, if this scenario happens then they completely contradict themselves, and lose some credibility...

 

Of course there is room for other scenarios as well, but this one won't make the Twins and FO look good.

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

So, for the sake of argument, let's say Tepecsh gets rocked on Friday and then either released or moved to the pen (not sure if he has options left).  Who pitches next?  If they call Berrios up, do we really think he figured out his command like Molly suggested in the one start?  

 

Or would it imply that Molly's arousal for certain players is a huge fault?

 

That's my worry here, if this scenario happens then they completely contradict themselves, and lose some credibility...

If Berrios is still working on something (and that's a big "if"), then my go-to guy would be Mejia again.

 

And I'd start working on Duffey rotating into a 2+ inning role for a few weeks with the expectation he'd be second in line behind Mejia.

 

But all of that assumes Berrios isn't close to ready. I don't know the answer to that question.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

First up, Ladies and Gentlemen Mr. Nick Tepesch! 

http://dailycaller.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Charlie-Brown-sad-e1389021596408.jpg

[Don Walcott]

I agree with Brock that we need to be patient and not so quick to judge the front office, especially when we don't know for sure why Berrios isn't being called up.  So I am trying . . . .

 

However, it is frustrating to see the numbers Berrios puts up in AAA, and not see him with the Twins.  At some point, what is he going to learn in AAA when, whatever he's doing right or wrong, he's dominant?  It just seems like the next step of learning whatever it is they want him to learn should be taking place in the majors.

 

Although I agree that we shouldn't do something that jeopardizes a good season so far: (1) who are we kidding?  Do we really think this team is a playoff team with this staff?  Aren't we in a rebuilding phase? (2) Isn't Kyle Gibson already killing us every fifth start?

[DaveW]

Welcome to Twins Daily. No matter what our front office, players, coaches do SOMEONE here will find fault in it. It's kind of beautiful in a depressing way.

Yes, how dare anyone criticize an organization that hasn't been to a World Series in 25+ years and hasn't won a playoff series in a decade and is coming off a run the past 5 years where they were overall the worst team in all of baseball.

 

The nerve!

[diehardtwinsfan]

I don't think anyone here is saying not to criticize the front office.  Brock has certainly shown where he can (and he did in terms of pen acquisitions for 2017)...  The issue here is unreasonable criticism, and on that I'm in agreement with him.  The criticism on the Berrios situation is without question unreasonable.

 

Here's what we know.

• Berrios put up sexy numbers last year in AAA.
• Berrios was historically bad in his major league debut.
• One month into AAA this year, Berrios is putting up sexy numbers, again.
• Berrios is not getting the call.
• The front office is changing from the top down.
• The org has made changes to how players are being developed.

Things we don't know and for the most part could not possibly know.

• What are those development changes.
• What front office thinks Berrios needs to do.
• Which coaches the front office will keep and which ones they will let go.

Simply put, Berrios was bad last season. He's had one month of starts in AAA... One Month.  I want to see him as much as the next guy, but it's going to take more than that to get me upset. In all honesty, for the most part I'd give these guys a pass for 2017.  They are overhauling an organization and a philosophy, which is going to bring major changes to how prospects are developed.  Give them some time and enjoy the fact that we are playing winning baseball.

[Taildragger8791]

 

Yes, how dare anyone criticize an organization that hasn't been to a World Series in 25+ years and hasn't won a playoff series in a decade and is coming off a run the past 5 years where they were overall the worst team in all of baseball.

The nerve!

 

There are plenty of things the Twins have earned criticism for, and I've been pretty vocal about a lot of them. I just don't see how a few weeks this way or that way on when they call up a young pitcher who failed spectacularly in previous call-ups is really the issue worth raking them over the coals for. This isn't as anywhere near as egregious as their handling of other prospects (particularly May and every centerfielder the last several years).

 

I mean, Berrios had 14 starts last year and only two of them were big league quality. He averaged 4 1/2 innings per start. I'd say they gave him a pretty fair tryout and it isn't unreasonable that they wanted to see some changes before they throw him back out there for another go at it. And they probably want to be confident that his next call-up will be successful instead of yanking him back and forth or disrupting the good thing that's going at Target Field right now.

[Mike Sixel]

Stating that the criticism is "without question unreasonable" is pretty much saying we can't question the FO on this topic. Who gets to choose what we can criticize them on?

 

He's actually had 35 starts in AAA, not one month.

[Taildragger8791]

 

Stating that the criticism is "without question unreasonable" is pretty much saying we can't question the FO on this topic. Who gets to choose what we can criticize them on?

 

He's actually had 35 starts in AAA, not one month.

 

30 of those starts were before his 2-month call-up to end last season, which was hopefully the wakeup call that made it clear he needs to fix some things. Only 5 starts have come since he went back down to work on those things. I think that's the important number to watch. He didn't look any different in spring training or the WBC, by the way, so I don't see evidence that he corrected those flaws in the offseason.

 

If he's up after another 3-4 starts are we really going to care that he spent an extra few weeks at AAA? If we're still sitting here mid-summer and he hasn't gotten a look yet despite continuing to dominate then I'll be right there with you. I just don't think we're anywhere near the point of unreasonableness yet.

[Mike Sixel]

Smell the Glover
12:26 What to make of Berrios maybe (but probably not) coming up in the near future? He's obvious not as bad as his major league numbers late last year, but seen anything to suggest he's made the appropriate change(s)?

 

Eno Sarris
12:26 I've seen some mechanical changes. I think it's possible he unlocks it this year, and in some leagues, he's the best upside pickup on the wire. And Gibson about to pitch his way out of the rotation.

[Joe A. Preusser]

Yes, how dare anyone criticize an organization that hasn't been to a World Series in 25+ years and hasn't won a playoff series in a decade and is coming off a run the past 5 years where they were overall the worst team in all of baseball.

The nerve!

Absolutely not what I said. And my opinions have nothing to do with being a homer or a front office appologist. I just can't stand it when someone takes what is ultimately a minor situation (Berrios not being called up yet), makes it into a huge mountain of a problem indicative of a rotten and decomposing organization, and then on top of that preaches it in the absolute worst possible light. Call me crazy, that seems unnecessarily negative.

 

Stop holding on to every mis-step and frustration from the last 15 years and try to enjoy the possibilities of the present and future.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Eno Sarris

12:26 I've seen some mechanical changes.

Interesting. I wish he would have gone into a bit more depth but it's only a chat so I get why he didn't.

[nicksaviking]

I think there would be some assuagement of anxiety (not all) if we got an explanation from Falvey himself. Few people on this site want to hear Molitor's thoughts on the situation, we want the justification from the man at the top.

 

 

[Thrylos]

 

Is the best pitching coach in AA, AAA, or the majors? Should not Berrios, at this point, be working with the best pitching coach?

 

 

Not that simple. 

 

The role of the MLB pitching coach is to help pitchers who are already major leaguers to improve and/or get out of slumps by tweaking few things here and there.

 

The roles of the minor league pitching coaches are to help pitchers develop and work closer with them.  Eg. teaching them new pitches, making major adjustments etc.

 

Different beast.  So there is not "better" or "worse".  Just different job.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Not that simple. 

 

The role of the MLB pitching coach is to help pitchers who are already major leaguers to improve and/or get out of slumps by tweaking few things here and there.

 

The roles of the minor league pitching coaches are to help pitchers develop and work closer with them.  Eg. teaching them new pitches, making major adjustments etc.

 

Different beast.  So there is not "better" or "worse".  Just different job.

 

Not according to Maddon, who says the majors are still about learning to be a MLB player, and growing, and that we do more development in the majors than we used to.

 

and, if that is the only job, the best teachers (and highest paid) should be in the minors, not majors. 

[DaveW]

 

Absolutely not what I said. And my opinions have nothing to do with being a homer or a front office appologist. I just can't stand it when someone takes what is ultimately a minor situation (Berrios not being called up yet), 

Continuing to play guys that have no business being in the major league at this stage (Bad Santana, Kyle Gibson) is not a minor situation. It costs games, the whole point of sports is to win the games. Games in April and May count just as much as games in July, August etc.

It's an even worse situation when you clearly have guys who can do much, much better, but you bury them in the minor leagues.

Berrios should have been up weeks ago, at this point every 5 days that go by we are potentially losing out on another much needed win.

[DaveW]

 

Not according to Maddon, who says the majors are still about learning to be a MLB player, and growing, and that we do more development in the majors than we used to.

 

Pfft, Maddon, call me when he has some success at the major league level. 

[Joe A. Preusser]

Continuing to play guys that have no business being in the major league at this stage (Bad Santana, Kyle Gibson) is not a minor situation. It costs games, the whole point of sports is to win the games. Games in April and May count just as much as games in July, August etc.

It's an even worse situation when you clearly have guys who can do much, much better, but you bury them in the minor leagues.

Berrios should have been up weeks ago, at this point every 5 days that go by we are potentially losing out on another much needed win.

Gibson gave every indication he would be competent to start the season. That he hasn't has been a surprise and dissapointmemt. I believe his leash is nearing its end, as it should be. Patience is a must, not everything can happen at video game speeds.

I would rather DanSan wasn't on the team, I really would. I think he would be gone if not for a few key injuries to start the year, but maybe I'm wrong. I do think the 25th man situation is a mole hill which I have no desire to turn into a mountain.

[Taildragger8791]

 

It's an even worse situation when you clearly have guys who can do much, much better, but you bury them in the minor leagues.

Berrios should have been up weeks ago, at this point every 5 days that go by we are potentially losing out on another much needed win.

 

How can you be so certain that he's much, much better? If he was the same guy at the start of this year as he was at the end of last year then it's more likely that Berrios would be costing us games than winning them right now.

[USAFChief]

 

And I'm saying it all depends on what's being taught. The quality of opposition may not matter if Berrios is working on not tipping pitches, slightly tweaking his delivery, a more consistent arm angle, etc.

 

If the problem is something Berrios is doing internally and/or mechanically, who he's facing at the plate doesn't matter a whole lot.

 

Development shouldn't be and isn't always results-based.

I guess we can rule all those things out then, because if the quality of competition doesn't matter, there's no reason he couldn't be working on it in the big leagues.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I guess we can rule all those things out then, because if the quality of competition doesn't matter, there's no reason he couldn't be working on it in the big leagues.

It does if the team believes he's going to post numbers so terrible the Twins will be forced to write off 20% of their games.

 

Again, my opinion on this matter would be wildly different if the Twins were 10-15 or worse.

[Joe A. Preusser]

I want to take a second to appreciate the discussion here today. It has been a good one.

[DaveW]

It does if the team believes he's going to post numbers so terrible the Twins will be forced to write off 20% of their games.

 

Again, my opinion on this matter would be wildly different if the Twins were 10-15 or worse.

But they seem perfectly happy throwing away 20% of their starts on a guy who has been TERRIBLE since May of 2015.

[Mr. Brooks]

So being as the statline doesn't matter in Berrios' case, I wonder if there will be consistency on that stance if he has a few rough outings in a row at AAA.

 

I have a feeling that some of those saying the statline doesn't matter now, might then say something like this shows that maybe he wasn't ready after all.

[USAFChief]

 

It does if the team believes he's going to post numbers so terrible the Twins will be forced to write off 20% of their games.

 

Again, my opinion on this matter would be wildly different if the Twins were 10-15 or worse.

I certainly agree the 14-11 start should make a difference, I was responding to your point about the quality of competition.

 

And if the team believes he's going to post numbers that terrible, that's an entirely different discussion...one not made by anyone here, including you.  The discussion has been about "tweaking" this or that, or stretching him out, or whatever...not about him not being good enough to pitch in the big leagues.

 

To top it off...as mentioned above, Kyle Gibson's 2017 ERA is remarkably similar to Berrios' 2016.

[Joe A. Preusser]

But they seem perfectly happy throwing away 20% of their starts on a guy who has been TERRIBLE since May of 2015.

Again, Gibson was showing every indication of turning an injury and performance corner coming out of spring training. I don't believe his pitching is the problem, I think he's a head case who needs some time away to decompress. Either way, if he throws another rough outing tonight I predict he will be moved to the pen or AAA, as he should.

[DaveW]

 

Again, Gibson was showing every indication of turning an injury and performance corner coming out of spring training. I don't believe his pitching is the problem, I think he's a head case who needs some time away to decompress. Either way, if he throws another rough outing tonight I predict he will be moved to the pen or AAA, as he should.

I think the problem with Gibson is he has been getting terrible results for pretty much the last 700 days. 

I don't care if it's an arm thing, a head thing, a conditioning thing. The results are terrible. He should not be in the rotation. He is due a hefty raise this year, send him to AAA or to the bullpen and see if he can right the ship. He is actively costing this team games in the meantime though. (Yes Berrios maybe would cost games as well, but he unlike Gibson has immense upside at this point at least)

[bizaff]

Last night Dick mentioned Berrios in the broadcast.  He said something along the lines they're concerned that some of the strikeouts he's getting there wouldn't fly in the majors.  I'm guessing he got that from the coaching staff. 

 

That gives me hope they're doing the right thing.  I'm guessing they want him to improve some of those pitches so he doesn't come up and get rocked again.

[Joe A. Preusser]

I think the problem with Gibson is he has been getting terrible results for pretty much the last 700 days. 

I don't care if it's an arm thing, a head thing, a conditioning thing. The results are terrible. He should not be in the rotation. He is due a hefty raise this year, send him to AAA or to the bullpen and see if he can right the ship. He is actively costing this team games in the meantime though. (Yes Berrios maybe would cost games as well, but he unlike Gibson has immense upside at this point at least)

I agree, he's costing us games right now and should be removed if he throws poorly today. But I can't fault the FO for believing things would be better for him to start this year. He certainly fooled me.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Again, Gibson was showing every indication of turning an injury and performance corner coming out of spring training. I don't believe his pitching is the problem, I think he's a head case who needs some time away to decompress. Either way, if he throws another rough outing tonight I predict he will be moved to the pen or AAA, as he should.

 

i would hope no one made decisions based on spring training results as a primary point of information, other than velocity...