Article: Tyler Jay Shifting To The Bullpen (Minor League Notebook)

[KirbyDome89]

The fact that a new FO made the decision to move him to the bullpen doesn't change the fact that he was drafted to be a starter. No longer having the #6 overall pick as a potential candidate to fill a rotation spot hurts....a lot. 

[Nick Nelson]

 

Wait, now you are saying that pitchers should come up earlier, not later? You gonna say that about Berrios and Meija also? 

um, yes? I would like to see them both up quickly. When have I said otherwise?

[Nick Nelson]

 

The fact that a new FO made the decision to move him to the bullpen doesn't change the fact that he was drafted to be a starter. No longer having the #6 overall pick as a potential candidate to fill a rotation spot hurts....a lot. 

It doesn't change it, but what good does it do for people to expend so much energy complaining about it? For the team to be formulating its view of how to handle Jay or what's best for him based on where the last regime drafted him would be the exact wrong approach.

 

Frankly, you should be a lot more concerned about #4 overall pick from two years earlier showing few signs of being able to help in any meaningful way. 

[Willihammer]

That's not the thing here.  It is not the Perkins situation.  The people who ran the Twins' draft had the idea that you can get College relievers who throw hard and make them top of the rotation starters.  Did not quite work out for the Twins.  Jay at least got out of there fast enough to be able to help the team.  Cederoth and Bard and (partially) Melotakis are still suffering from that approach.  

 

You cannot wash out something that was never there other in people's minds who tried to force it.

IMO the Twins should be careful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater. College pitcher throw out of the bullpen as underclassmen almost always. The best ones usually move to the rotation by their junior year, but not always. For example the Yankees drafted a junior in the 5th round in 2015 out of Dallas Baptist named Chance Adams who never cracked the rotation. He's now dominating the minors as a starter. Brock Stewart's another guy (6th rounder). College coaches aren't perfect and certainly most of them favor seniority to varying degrees. There's an inefficiency at some schools, but the Twins need to do a better job of identifying those cases and probably not take those risks until later rounds. Edited March 21, 2017 by Willihammer

[KirbyDome89]

 

It doesn't change it, but what good does it do for people to expend so much energy complaining about it? For the team to be formulating its view of how to handle Jay or what's best for him based on where the last regime drafted him would be the exact wrong approach.

 

Frankly, you should be a lot more concerned about #4 overall pick from two years earlier showing few signs of being able to help in any meaningful way. 

The Twins pitching at the MLB level is $%&$ing garbage. Gonsalves had another should flare up. The Twins insist it isn't it isn't a big deal, which means he'll land on the DL sometime midseason with a serious injury as is typical Twins fashion. Jay is now a non-factor for the future of the rotation. Stewart can't strike anybody out. Its all concerning, including Gordon now playing some 2B. As a whole it makes the loss of the #6 pick from the rotation that much worse.

 

I have seen very little, if any argument against him pitching from the bullpen. I think the timing is curious but I don't have a massive issue with the switch. I'm not sure why you seem so perplexed as to the concern expressed over losing a potential starter. Its a BIG deal. Right now the house is burning to the ground and the hose to put it out is losing water. People should be concerned....

[twinssouth]

They had all off season to decide whether to start or go to the Pen. Instead, the agent waits a month into spring training to announce it, probably after watching Perkins throw 78 mph spit balls. Do I see show me the money

[tobi0040]

I think it is fair to be concerned that we are making this decision for the wrong reason. Expediting him to the big leagues this year. Replacing Glen Perkins, capitulating to a players wants, etc are not sound reasons.

 

I guess this, the May news, and potential issues with Gonsalves is not good for the future rotation. I could add that picking up the option on Santiago kind of defeated the purpose of adding Meyer to the deal last year.

 

I get that the new front office didn't make that trade or draft Jay. It is just a lot to take in.

 

I can only speak for myself, but these decisions and the projection of Danny Santana breaking camp is not exactly the stark contrast I was hoping to see with two new external hires in the front office.

[Oldgoat_MN]

So here’s the part that bothers me:
Toward the end of Spring Training of 2011, Bill Smith said about the starting rotation that 4 of the 5 SP were determined and the last would go to Kevin Slowey or Scott Baker. Like it was some great showdown. No one anywhere thought that Slowey was going to beat out Baker for that position. It was insulting to the even slightly knowledgeable fan. In my book it spoke poorly of Bill Smith, treating us like children and trying to generate interest/excitement where there was none.

 

Now we get this:
Doogie: “There is zero doubt in anyone’s mind Tyler’s ability to make a major impact in the Twins rotation at some point down the road”.

So is Doogie in disagreement with the FO? Are they schmoozing Tyler Jay? Are they just jacking us around? Is all the hype about our BP us just fooling ourselves?

Duffey – alleged shutdown guy against LHB
Boshers – best in 2016 by FIP, xFIP, 2nd in WHIP and SIERA
O’Rourke – best WHIP on the team in 2016
Kintzler – healthy after a good year in 2016
Shaggy – high hopes for the young man (well, he’s 26)
Pressly, Tonkin, Hildenberger, Burdi, Melotakis….

Yet we have to add Jay, Breslow, Haley, Belisle and Tepesch to the BP?

 

Does our FO believe we have anything?
Do we have anything?

[Nick Nelson]

 

I guess this, the May news, and potential issues with Gonsalves is not good for the future rotation. I could add that picking up the option on Santiago kind of defeated the purpose of adding Meyer to the deal last year.

I get that the new front office didn't make that trade or draft Jay. It is just a lot to take in.

I can only speak for myself, but these decisions and the projection of Danny Santana breaking camp is not exactly the stark contrast I was hoping to see with two new external hires in the front office.

Mays and (possibly) Gonsalves being injured are not "decisions." Santiago is a solid pitcher whose presence does nothing but add SP depth. I don't necessarily agree with the projection that Danny Santana will break camp but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. 

 

So the only actual decisions you're criticizing here are keeping Santiago (perfectly defensible) and changing Jay's role, which I would argue is a proactive move that does contrast against the previous leaders.

 

 

Now we get this:

Doogie: “There is zero doubt in anyone’s mind Tyler’s ability to make a major impact in the Twins rotation at some point down the road”.

So is Doogie in disagreement with the FO? Are they schmoozing Tyler Jay? Are they just jacking us around? Is all the hype about our BP us just fooling ourselves?

Doogie was relaying a quote from Tyler Jay's agent. Take it with a grain of salt.

[Mike Sixel]

He never said decisions only (about the injuries...he mentions three decisions, basically), he said all this news together is disappointing. I share that.

 

I can't see how anyone wouldn't, really.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Frankly, you should be a lot more concerned about #4 overall pick from two years earlier showing few signs of being able to help in any meaningful way. 

 

In terms of future starting pitching, why can't both concern me?

 

I can acknowledge Jay might still be valuable and still regret what this does for our future SP options.

[DaveW]

 

In terms of future starting pitching, why can't both concern me?

 

I can acknowledge Jay might still be valuable and still regret what this does for our future SP options.

The thing that concerns me the most is the Twins have a terrible MLB team (last place 5 of last 6 years) and a pretty "meh" farm system. The last time we saw ineptitude across the board like this it took damn near a full decade for the Twins to become contenders again.

So yes, losing Jay, one of the very very very very very very very few guys who appeared to be something more than a back end rotation guy in this entire org (including MLB team) is concerning to me.

[Bob Sacamento]

 

I can acknowledge Jay might still be valuable and still regret what this does for our future SP options.

Fernando Romero is the SP the Twins need to turn out to be a SP instead of a RP.  Just hope his arm holds up and that he gets a better feeling for his changeup which he told me this weekend is what he plans on working on the most this season.

[DaveW]

 

 Santiago is a solid pitcher whose presence does nothing but add SP depth.

We for some reason decided to give up Alex Meyer for Santiago (and still sent over a boatload of money)

Having Alex Meyer still in the system would have added SP depth, and actually would have been SP depth that could help this team for more than just one year of overpaying a guy like Santiago.

 

[DaveW]

 

Fernando Romero is the SP the Twins need to turn out to be a SP instead of a RP.  Just hope his arm holds up and that he gets a better feeling for his changeup which he told me this weekend is what he plans on working on the most this season.

Romero still has a looonnnng ways to go before I feel confident in penciling him into any future rotation. He hasn't even pitched 180 innings TOTAL since he joined the system 5 years ago. This is why it really sucks to lose ANY potential front end SP types like Jay, we went from 3 or 4 guys that had front end potential to just 2 or 3 now.

Not.

 

Good.

[Bob Sacamento]

 

Romero still has a looonnnng ways to go before I feel confident in penciling him into any future rotation. He hasn't even pitched 180 innings TOTAL since he joined the system 5 years ago. This is why it really sucks to lose ANY potential front end SP types like Jay, we went from 3 or 4 guys that had front end potential to just 2 or 3 now.

Not.

 

Good.

Romero isn't as far away as you might think, he's starting the season in AA.  He threw 120-130 IP last year once EXST and Instructional ball is taken into consideration.  So scratching 150-160 IP should be the benchmark for him this year.  

 

I think you are heavily overrating Tyler Jay's potential in ever turning that into a front end starter, and I say that as a fellow Illini grad and a "yuge fan" of Ty Jay "bigly".

[drjim]

 

The thing that concerns me the most is the Twins have a terrible MLB team (last place 5 of last 6 years) and a pretty "meh" farm system. The last time we saw ineptitude across the board like this it took damn near a full decade for the Twins to become contenders again.

So yes, losing Jay, one of the very very very very very very very few guys who appeared to be something more than a back end rotation guy in this entire org (including MLB team) is concerning to me.

 

What do you mean by "last time"? The Twins are in year 7.

[Oldgoat_MN]

 

We for some reason decided to give up Alex Meyer for Santiago (and still sent over a boatload of money)

Having Alex Meyer still in the system would have added SP depth, and actually would have been SP depth that could help this team for more than just one year of overpaying a guy like Santiago.

 

Hector Santiago is 29 years old and has posted an ERA+ of >100 3 years of his career.

Alex Meyer is 27 years old and has yet to post a single year with an ERA+ of >=90.

 

Not the same.

It may happen that Meyer has a great year or 10, which would call into question our ability to develop young pitching. So far, based on data, the Twins have the better pitcher of the two.

[big dog]

 

We for some reason decided to give up Alex Meyer for Santiago (and still sent over a boatload of money)

Having Alex Meyer still in the system would have added SP depth, and actually would have been SP depth that could help this team for more than just one year of overpaying a guy like Santiago.

 

Alex Meyer has thrown 7.2 innings this spring.  7 hits, 7 BBs, 5 K's.  Are we still claiming he is SP depth, even for the Twins?

 

I don't care about Santiago one way or another, but I'll bet he's going to help the Twins more than Meyer helps the Angels.  Let's just get over the end of the Meyer Era.

[jokin]

 

Deron Johnson

Yes

 

Why?

[Otto von Ballpark]

Rosario likely isn't on the Twins future radar, I'd assume? Is there something obvious with his pitch repertoire that he could do in the pen that would somehow improve his K% DRASTICALLY? I just don't seem him as (useful) MLB bullpen arm.

Rosario did in fact improve his K rate significantly after moving to the pen in 2016. (It was pretty abysmal as a starter.)

[jokin]

 

It doesn't change it, but what good does it do for people to expend so much energy complaining about it? For the team to be formulating its view of how to handle Jay or what's best for him based on where the last regime drafted him would be the exact wrong approach.

 

Frankly, you should be a lot more concerned about #4 overall pick from two years earlier showing few signs of being able to help in any meaningful way. 

 

IOW... (Why did anyone, after he returned, EVER) Trust In Terry?

 

2013-14-15-16 Amateur drafts... Is anyone ever going to help the starting pitching staff in any meaningful way?

 

If it is now apparently not going to be Jay, or Stewart (Are Kohl's health issues an unanticipated/disregarded underlying concern? Or is it his lack of baseball experience that is retarding his progression through MiLB? Twins coaching staff's persistent inability to develop very talented young arms into productive major leaguers commensurate with their upside potential? Some combination of all of the above?)  

Edited March 21, 2017 by jokin

[KirbyDome89]

 

Hector Santiago is 29 years old and has posted an ERA+ of >100 3 years of his career.

Alex Meyer is 27 years old and has yet to post a single year with an ERA+ of >=90.

 

Not the same.

It may happen that Meyer has a great year or 10, which would call into question our ability to develop young pitching. So far, based on data, the Twins have the better pitcher of the two.

I think a Santiago vs. Nolasco comparison would be a more accurate indicator of who won that trade. So far it looks like LA. I was thrilled to see that Nolasco was traded last summer until I read the details of the trade. With the arbitration contract they gave Santiago and the 4 million they're paying LA this season the two are basically the same price (12 - 12.5 million). The Twins literally just swapped starting pitchers and the price to do it was giving up a former top prospect who even if he flames out as a starter (and so far he has) could still be a valuable bullpen piece. I have a hard time looking at this trade and saying the Twins got the better end of it. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Fernando Romero is the SP the Twins need to turn out to be a SP instead of a RP.  Just hope his arm holds up and that he gets a better feeling for his changeup which he told me this weekend is what he plans on working on the most this season.

 

I don't disagree, but that's just one guy.   We need more than that.

[Bob Sacamento]

 

I don't disagree, but that's just one guy.   We need more than that.

You might have to trade some of that young positional depth for an ace starting pitcher, because outside of Romero that talent doesn't currently exist in Twins camp either MLB or MiLB.  Gonsalves is a #3/4 type same goes for Berrios, Meijia is a #4/5, Jorge is a #4/5, Stewart is an enigma.  Don't be shocked if the Twins concentrate heavily on pitching in the 2017 draft.

 

[tobi0040]

I don't disagree, but that's just one guy. We need more than that.

This is it for me. Our starters had an ERA over 5 last year. And Ervin was in the mid 3's and likely isn't apart of the next good rotation. So Romero is a piece. We can throw out other names and hope pick 1-1 is a stud. But we lost some of the lottery tickets this week. The rotation is still a long ways off.

[FormerMinnasotan]

You might have to trade some of that young positional depth for an ace starting pitcher, because outside of Romero that talent doesn't currently exist in Twins camp either MLB or MiLB. Gonsalves is a #3/4 type same goes for Berrios, Meijia is a #4/5, Jorge is a #4/5, Stewart is an enigma. Don't be shocked if the Twins concentrate heavily on pitching in the 2017 draft.

While I know he hasn't thrown a pitch in 2 yrs, but don't count out Lewis Thorpe. He might not make the rotation till 2019, but at the time he was healthy he was seen as a better prospect than Romero, Stewart, and Gonsalves.

[Bob Sacamento]

 

While I know he hasn't thrown a pitch in 2 yrs, but don't count out Lewis Thorpe. He might not make the rotation till 2019, but at the time he was healthy he was seen as a better prospect than Romero, Stewart, and Gonsalves.

True almost completely forgot about Thorpe, the talent was definitely there before and he's more muscular now as well. So far in spring ball, he's only throw 2 outings (both of 3 innings) so he's still got a ways to go in the rehab phase but I hope to see him in Fort Myers at some point this year.

[TheLeviathan]

 

True almost completely forgot about Thorpe, the talent was definitely there before and he's more muscular now as well. So far in spring ball, he's only throw 2 outings (both of 3 innings) so he's still got a ways to go in the rehab phase but I hope to see him in Fort Myers at some point this year.

 

All the optimistic spin you put on these guys echos the optimistic spin others were putting on Jay and how he'd take things to the next level this year and confirm his future as a starter.

 

We had limited bullets in our gun already and we just took another one out.  That hurts.  I too hope other guys step up, but it's still a setback.

[Mike Sixel]

You might have to trade some of that young positional depth for an ace starting pitcher, because outside of Romero that talent doesn't currently exist in Twins camp either MLB or MiLB.  Gonsalves is a #3/4 type same goes for Berrios, Meijia is a #4/5, Jorge is a #4/5, Stewart is an enigma.  Don't be shocked if the Twins concentrate heavily on pitching in the 2017 draft.

Weren't were just told that the system was fine, and we shouldn't worry about the prospects? So confused....