Charlie Walters: Twins to Seek Free Agents "Within Budget"

[Pius Jefferson]

Please get rid of TR. Gardy is an icon so I don't mind him . I'd like to have a younger GM who has new school ways. The Twins should dig through the Rays and Pirates organizations for some different management. The Twins NEED fresh faces going forward.

 

The Twins GM needs to be dealt with this off-season. The Twins can't have an interim GM for two years.

[Guest USAFChief]

Talk about jumping the gun with apples and oranges and outdated information, Marquis and Liriano are also cut off from your declarative statement. If you would have bothered to take the time to check the current ACTIVE PLAYER ESPN roster, not including the DLers, this is what I was referring to, and I am surmising that might be a number that would be appealing to Pohlad in 2013, who according to his quote, appeared to be talking in the "present tense" with who is actually on the field. You can add the cost of the current 25-man active roster and what they currently are earning and extrapolate who will be gone this year or at season's end, it's not that difficult.

 

Regardless, if you check it, your printed Cot's list totals up to a current payroll of $90.0725M. Add $2M for the unlisted salaries of the bottom five, and that puts you at $92.0725M. Liriano gone (already tallied), Marquis gone (already tallied), Pavano, DL and gone, Baker, DL and gone, Capps DL and gone. This brings the payroll down to $72.825M with the Capps 2013 buyout included. Are the scheduled contract raises much more than $5M? I don't think so. That puts the projected payroll for a stand-pat team at ~$77.5M. Obviously, they will attempt to replace the pitching losses via trade or Free Agency. I don't see how they get there without another big salary dump trade or two.

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but you seem to be saying that somehow the Twins aren't currently paying Pavano's salary, simply because he's on the DL. Same for Baker. Same for Capps. The Twins are still paying all three of those, although it's possible they had some sort of insurance on Baker, but I doubt it. The Twins also released Marquis, and are responsible for the rest of his 2012 salary, minus a prorated portion of the MLB minimum.

 

Their "current" payroll isn't much different than it was on opening day. Chicago is apparently paying for Liriano for the rest of 2012. Other than that, WTF are you talking about?

[Wolfy]

'

 

Agreed, I don't think he should spend just to spend. But if you can find another Willingham type signing (for an SP) then give them a 2-3 year deal for a team friendly salary. If not, spend that money on 1 year deals. No such thing as a bad one year deal for the most part.

Yep. All of what you said.

 

Though with the kind of money he usually budgets for FA pitching, there is a good chance the Twins wind up with another Marquis, so get ready for that.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but you seem to be saying that somehow the Twins aren't currently paying Pavano's salary, simply because he's on the DL. Same for Baker. Same for Capps. The Twins are still paying all three of those, although it's possible they had some sort of insurance on Baker, but I doubt it. The Twins also released Marquis, and are responsible for the rest of his 2012 salary, minus a prorated portion of the MLB minimum.

 

Their "current" payroll isn't much different than it was on opening day. Chicago is apparently paying for Liriano for the rest of 2012. Other than that, WTF are you talking about?

Yeah, I didn't get that, either. Just because someone goes on the DL, it doesn't mean you get to stop paying them.

 

Also, I bet if you asked Jim Pohlad what the payroll is right now, he wouldn't be able to tell you. In my experience, business owners don't keep track of minor changes in that sort of thing. He'd surely be able to tell you the Opening Day payroll (which he had been directly reported to on and consulted) but I really doubt he keeps track of $500,000 here and there rotating up and down from the minors or being traded. There are a million other (more important) things to be thinking about.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Talk about jumping the gun with apples and oranges and outdated information, Marquis and Liriano are also cut off from your declarative statement. If you would have bothered to take the time to check the current ACTIVE PLAYER ESPN roster, not including the DLers, this is what I was referring to, and I am surmising that might be a number that would be appealing to Pohlad in 2013, who according to his quote, appeared to be talking in the "present tense" with who is actually on the field. You can add the cost of the current 25-man active roster and what they currently are earning and extrapolate who will be gone this year or at season's end, it's not that difficult.

 

Regardless, if you check it, your printed Cot's list totals up to a current payroll of $90.0725M. Add $2M for the unlisted salaries of the bottom five, and that puts you at $92.0725M. Liriano gone (already tallied), Marquis gone (already tallied), Pavano, DL and gone, Baker, DL and gone, Capps DL and gone. This brings the payroll down to $72.825M with the Capps 2013 buyout included. Are the scheduled contract raises much more than $5M? I don't think so. That puts the projected payroll for a stand-pat team at ~$77.5M. Obviously, they will attempt to replace the pitching losses via trade or Free Agency. I don't see how they get there without another big salary dump trade or two.

THose contracts are guaranteed... they still paid them. The real payroll is nothing close to 85-90M as you have suggested.

[Boom Boom]

Twins might consider going after mid-level free agents? Ryan and Gardenhire are beloved by the organization?

 

This is groundbreaking work by Shooter. Honestly I think he just dug out a column from five or six years ago and reprinted it.

[JB_Iowa]

I actually tried keeping a spreadsheet on the Twins payroll earlier in the season. It gets very difficult because of the people they've cut loose and promoting minor leaguers, etc.

 

I don't think ANY of us can accurately predict what payroll will be next year. I tend to think that this year's final tally will end up somewhere around $97 million BUT I don't think that will be Terry Ryan's starting point for next year.

 

Taking Ryan's comments into account along with Pohlads and trying to reconcile the two, my guess is that Ryan will target a payroll around $90-93 million -- similar to his starting point this year. Even if he has authority above that, he'll want to leave room in case he has to correct any problems, has long DL stints, has to cut loose players, etc.

 

If anything, I get the impression that Terry Ryan is more fiscally conservative than Jim Pohlad. I simply don't see him starting out toward his "maximum budget" UNLESS he thinks he is really getting a deal. It is much more likely that he is going to take a conservative route somewhere in the low 90's.

[DPJ]

"We will definitely look at the free-agent market," Pohlad said Tuesday, July 31. "We probably won't sign the most expensive free-agent pitcher that there is. Terry (Ryan, general manager) is committed to doing everything (to improve the team)."

 

This same stupid quote has been in every article written about the Twins offseason for the last 15+ years.

[cr9617]

Marquis, Ponson, Livan Hernandez, Mike Lamb? Who else did they sign for a year?

Good one year deal for the Twins? Morris.

Orlando Hudson was neither good nor bad.

Zumaya was a gamble that they lost on. I think is was worth the shot even though they lost. Jeff Gray I think was only intended to be filler for a year, thus not bad.

I believe Lamb was a 2 year deal

[gunnarthor]

Please get rid of TR. Gardy is an icon so I don't mind him . I'd like to have a younger GM who has new school ways. The Twins should dig through the Rays and Pirates organizations for some different management. The Twins NEED fresh faces going forward.

I really don't know why you think TR should go. You point out two org who had historically long number of losing seasons and relatively new front offices that have had the advantages of years worth of high draft picks and/or new stadiums. Ryan kept the Twins a playoff team while reconstructing the nucleus of his team. He's had the job for less than a year and made a number of solid moves in FA - Willingham, Burton, Walters, Doumit, Carroll - as well as drafting and spending a lot in the international market.

 

Honestly, how would you feel if Ryan blew two drafts like Huntington did in Pitt? In 2009, he took Sanchez #4 on the promise to sign more guys later in the draft - none of which have made the majors or on the Pirates top 10 prospect list - and to sign Miguel Sano. He then took Appel this year and failed to sign him and his backup picks didn't sign either. His top prospects have struggled in the majors and a number of them are making their debuts at 25. His teams have faltered down the stretch (and will probably do so again this year). I actually do think NH is a good GM but I think if Ryan had made the same decisions he had, he'd be lampooned.

[cr9617]

Here are the two things we know from reading this article:

 

1) Pohlad said he is comfortable with where payroll is at now.

 

2) Walters wrote in the article, right next to that particular quote, that payroll for this year stands at around $100 million.

 

Now I would guess that as a veteran reporter, Walters had the sense to run this number by Pohlad while he was talking to him. And if Pohlad's response was some ridiculous nonsense about how the "current payroll" is actually the current amount they're currently paying to players currently on the 25-man roster extrapolated across a full season – well, Walters would have written that in the story.

 

Any conclusions you draw beyond the two items mentioned above are nothing but absurd conjecture.

A good rule of thumb...is to disregard anything and everything written by Walters.

[snepp]

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but you seem to be saying that somehow the Twins aren't currently paying Pavano's salary, simply because he's on the DL. Same for Baker. Same for Capps. The Twins are still paying all three of those, although it's possible they had some sort of insurance on Baker, but I doubt it. The Twins also released Marquis, and are responsible for the rest of his 2012 salary, minus a prorated portion of the MLB minimum.

 

Their "current" payroll isn't much different than it was on opening day. Chicago is apparently paying for Liriano for the rest of 2012. Other than that, WTF are you talking about?

I'd like to third this notion.

[snepp]

According to Cot's the 2012 Payroll is $100.45M.

Now you done it.

[UCLA_YANKEE_COLA]

I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure Brick stabbed a guy with a trident at some point in this thread.

[bird]

jokin, you're right, name calling is a sure indication that the name caller is losing the argument. Another sure indicator? Not knowing what you're talking about. Good game. Good game.

[bird]

I'm continually amused by the examples posters use to support their argument that the Twins (Jim Pohlad) are cheap, and that Terry Ryan is a dinosaur. Yeah, let's go back to Ponson, and all the other pre-Target Field bargain basement signings. Let's ignore all the investments in the recent post-Target Field era. Ignore Willingham, Sano, Amaurys Minier, Doumit, using 97% of this year's draft budget, because instead, you can point to Marquis and blurt out something about the same old cheap dinosaurs, confident that your grasp on fangraphs is vastly superior to Ryan's. Or bring up "quotes" from over the last 15 years, ignoring that none of them were from Jim Pohlad really until maybe four years ago, and tell all of us how conclusively this proves that we're dealing with the same old cheap dinosaurs.

 

So, if Terry Ryan and Jim Pohlad trade for one #2-type starter, sign another #2-type starter, and otherwise cobble together a starting rotation for 2013 that finishes with an ERA in the top third in the American League, all while keeping the lineup they fixed this year intact, and all while keeping the bullpen they fixed this year intact, and all while continuing to dramatically shore up the farm system, then are you critics who spew out all the "old school" and "cheap" characterizations going to come back and admit your criticism was misguided and perhaps uncharitable?

 

OK, cool.

[bird]

Oh, and jokin? You called out a fellow poster for name calling. Fill me in on the rules, will you? Is it bad manners for us to attack each other, but OK to disparage others? For example, you said Jim Pohlad makes his living creating wiggle room for every word he utters. Do you know this person?

 

That kind of attack, regardless of who is being attacked, is the epitome of smallness.

[jokin]

I'm continually amused by the examples posters use to support their argument that the Twins (Jim Pohlad) are cheap, and that Terry Ryan is a dinosaur. Yeah, let's go back to Ponson, and all the other pre-Target Field bargain basement signings. Let's ignore all the investments in the recent post-Target Field era. Ignore Willingham, Sano, Amaurys Minier, Doumit, using 97% of this year's draft budget, because instead, you can point to Marquis and blurt out something about the same old cheap dinosaurs, confident that your grasp on fangraphs is vastly superior to Ryan's. Or bring up "quotes" from over the last 15 years, ignoring that none of them were from Jim Pohlad really until maybe four years ago, and tell all of us how conclusively this proves that we're dealing with the same old cheap dinosaurs.

 

So, if Terry Ryan and Jim Pohlad trade for one #2-type starter, sign another #2-type starter, and otherwise cobble together a starting rotation for 2013 that finishes with an ERA in the top third in the American League, all while keeping the lineup they fixed this year intact, and all while keeping the bullpen they fixed this year intact, and all while continuing to dramatically shore up the farm system, then are you critics who spew out all the "old school" and "cheap" characterizations going to come back and admit your criticism was misguided and perhaps uncharitable?

 

OK, cool.

If the Twins attempt to pull off anything close to your wish list, I will praise them from the rooftops. Because I'm in the real world and not up in a tree somewhere spotting chickadees, I am not holding my breath that it likely will occur. While you're up there in the sycamore, could you present current evidence that JPohlad is enthusiastically ready to make the changes needed in personnel and increasing the payroll commensurate to a team that has the demonstrated capability to draw 3M+ fans to his new ballpark that would make this team a legitimate World Series contender?

 

Do we have to go through the history? This is the same family that tried their darndest to commit franchise suicide as recently as 2007.

[jokin]

Oh, and jokin? You called out a fellow poster for name calling. Fill me in on the rules, will you? Is it bad manners for us to attack each other, but OK to disparage others? For example, you said Jim Pohlad makes his living creating wiggle room for every word he utters. Do you know this person?

 

That kind of attack, regardless of who is being attacked, is the epitome of smallness.

Yes, it is bad manners to small-mindedly attack fellow posters on Twins Daily. With respect to Pohlad, I don't see any name calling and you couldn't identify any such instance on my part, I was not having a discussion with Pohlad and I fairly, but mildly colorfully, described what he, and others in political/business situations do for a living, he is a (very) public figure who has benefitted directly from public participation in the building of Target Field. Do you really have a problem with free speech in this situation, because apparently your characterization with parsing the party line is "the epitome of smallness". Right.

[twinswon1991]

If the Twins attempt to pull of anything close to your wish list, I will praise them from the rooftops. Because I'm in the real world and not up in a tree somewhere spotting chickadees, I am not holding my breath that it likely will occur. While you're up there in the sycamore, could you present current evidence that JPohlad is enthusiastically ready to make the changes needed in personnel and increasing the payroll commensurate to a team that has the demonstrated capability to draw 3M+ fans to his new ballpark that would make this team a legitimate World Series contender?

 

Do we have to go through the history? This is the same family that tried their darndest to commit franchise suicide as recently as 2007.

 

 

 

Spot on. Birdwatcher must be a member of the Polad family or he has almost zero grasp of reality. I love the Twins but also call them out when they are failing badly because I want them to get to the top once again.

[jokin]

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but you seem to be saying that somehow the Twins aren't currently paying Pavano's salary, simply because he's on the DL. Same for Baker. Same for Capps. The Twins are still paying all three of those, although it's possible they had some sort of insurance on Baker, but I doubt it. The Twins also released Marquis, and are responsible for the rest of his 2012 salary, minus a prorated portion of the MLB minimum.

 

Their "current" payroll isn't much different than it was on opening day. Chicago is apparently paying for Liriano for the rest of 2012. Other than that, WTF are you talking about?

i certainly wasn't talking in code, for the umpteenth time, of course the Twins are paying the players on DL and are also on the hook for Marquis and the actual payroll reflects this. I explicitly, and repeatedly, stated that I referred only to the players currently active on the field. I then listed the aforementioned DLers who are virtually assured of being gone either in August or by season's end. From there, I took admittedly large license to cynically parse Pohlad's answer to Walters about the payroll going into next season. Given the past Twins history and the recent background stories about further cuts in payroll in the works, is it unreasonable to think and project from the current roster that a lower payroll in 2013 is a possibility? I noticed Nick Nelson still hasn't responded to my comment on the Twins level of commitment based on a percentage of the revenues, falling attendance this year, and the distinct likelihood of a significant drop in season ticket renewals for next year. I think that's plenty of reasons why Pohlad needs to carve out the wiggle room on a precise payroll number, with the distinct possibility that the number will most certainly not be higher, has a very small chance of remaining the same and could very well, and most likely will, be lower. Will it be $85M? I sure hope not, but that worst-case scenario can't be dismissed out of hand.

[pipers44]

I am curious as to what many of the detractors expected this past offseason. IMO, this team had so many holes that they had to make a decision on what to address within the confines of their budget. They chose to gamble a bit and hope their starting rotation would bounce back and perform at a level that each of them has shown in the past. Baker and Pavano both get hurt and Blackburn and Liriano both under performed. They tried signing their typical cheap fill in, Marquis. In my eyes, this was a reasonable gamble. They made an unbelieveable signing in Willingham, maybe the best FA signing in baseball. Doumit fits very well with what they want and need to do with Mauer and they fixed their bullpen on the cheap. With the lineup returning and the bullpen mostly covered for next year, I think we need to give TR a chance to address the starting pitching and middle infield this offseason. There was no way he was going to be able to address it all in one offseason.

[chuchadoro]

"Within budget" means anything left over after this is filled:

 

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQcpinfX-_rXQtDMbzrYLVTaTofHJ3O8vSVOP1JHBJm3_agUwKwgQ

[bird]

jokin,

 

As a matter of fact I do know a number of the Pohlads, although not particularly well. But I have trouble respecting people who disparage others whether I know the victim or not. Go hide behind your "mildly colorful" garbage, jokin. Maybe it wasn't perjorative name-calling (your recent word choice), but it was disparagement at its lowest. Oh, because someone isn't posting, or because they're in business, that gives you a license to smear them. Cowardly behavior.

 

And gee, I just don't recall any praise emanating from the mildly colorful jokin when, during Jim Pohlad's "history" of running things (about a four-year period, three of which involved the now-higher revenues), for outbidding everyone for Sano, for spending big bucks to land this year's 4th-ranked International prospect, for spending $850k on Kepler, for signing the best pitching prospect in Australia, for spending almost every dollar of this year's draft allottment, for signing Willingham, or Doumit, for ....the list of "evidence", which you asked for right?....goes on and on and on. And of course, guys like you and twinswon1991 will disregard this evidence, won't you? twiswon1991 will smugly declare how out of touch someone like me is. Funny stuff. mildly colorful even. And remember, Pohlad disagrees with you about the need for certain "personnel " changes. Of course, that's probably because, as a high-profile businessman, he makes his living finding wiggle room for every word he utters, right, jokin. Right. Cowardly and low thing to say.

 

Oh, and when your're praising Jim Pohlad from the rooftops for spaending this winter to fix the rotation, stay away from my sycamore.

[jokin]

I am curious as to what many of the detractors expected this past offseason. IMO, this team had so many holes that they had to make a decision on what to address within the confines of their budget. They chose to gamble a bit and hope their starting rotation would bounce back and perform at a level that each of them has shown in the past. Baker and Pavano both get hurt and Blackburn and Liriano both under performed. They tried signing their typical cheap fill in, Marquis. In my eyes, this was a reasonable gamble. They made an unbelieveable signing in Willingham, maybe the best FA signing in baseball. Doumit fits very well with what they want and need to do with Mauer and they fixed their bullpen on the cheap. With the lineup returning and the bullpen mostly covered for next year, I think we need to give TR a chance to address the starting pitching and middle infield this offseason. There was no way he was going to be able to address it all in one offseason.

The first problem with your statement is that the Twins dug their own "budget confines". The second problem is the Twins didn't choose to "gamble a bit" with the rotation, they were all-in on hope and change with Pavano and Baker already walking red flags in showing major treadware on their arms in 2011, and to say that Blackie and Liriano "underperformed" is being kind to a fault. Together with Marquis, they were the worst 3 SPs in all of baseball, and it wasn't close. The reality is, they were stuck with 4 dead-weight, apparently unmovable contracts (although they certainly could have tried harder on Blackburn, and especially Liriano), so it was a gamble, but a major gamble, perhaps reasonable under the circumstances. Willingham was a good signing, but he didn't add to club needs, he replaced half of what they lost to FA in the OF and is a worse OFer than his already-mediocre-to-bad-defensively predecessors.

 

The other fixes were the "easy ones" and well-done on TR's part, deserving of a congratulatory hand clap rather than a back slap- lest you forget, the Twins are worse than last year with all those fixes- they currently have a .423 winning percentage, a year ago to the day their percentage was .459. The glaring need at SP could have been easily shored up in outbidding and overpaying the signing of one-year deals to a couple of the many SP FAs (Maholm, etc.) with nary a raise in payroll from 2011 and most likely a huge decrease if they could have moved Liriano and/or Blackburn in the offseason- and that all goes back to the Twins and the digging of their own budget confines.

[jokin]

jokin,

 

As a matter of fact I do know a number of the Pohlads, although not particularly well. But I have trouble respecting people who disparage others whether I know the victim or not. Go hide behind your "mildly colorful" garbage, jokin. Maybe it wasn't perjorative name-calling (your recent word choice), but it was disparagement at its lowest. Oh, because someone isn't posting, or because they're in business, that gives you a license to smear them. Cowardly behavior.

 

And gee, I just don't recall any praise emanating from the mildly colorful jokin when, during Jim Pohlad's "history" of running things (about a four-year period, three of which involved the now-higher revenues), for outbidding everyone for Sano, for spending big bucks to land this year's 4th-ranked International prospect, for spending $850k on Kepler, for signing the best pitching prospect in Australia, for spending almost every dollar of this year's draft allottment, for signing Willingham, or Doumit, for ....the list of "evidence", which you asked for right?....goes on and on and on. And of course, guys like you and twinswon1991 will disregard this evidence, won't you? twiswon1991 will smugly declare how out of touch someone like me is. Funny stuff. mildly colorful even. And remember, Pohlad disagrees with you about the need for certain "personnel " changes. Of course, that's probably because, as a high-profile businessman, he makes his living finding wiggle room for every word he utters, right, jokin. Right. Cowardly and low thing to say.

 

Oh, and when your're praising Jim Pohlad from the rooftops for spaending this winter to fix the rotation, stay away from my sycamore.

Great. I think we have now had it confirmed that the powers-that-be monitor this website, at least by "not particularly well" proxy.

 

Let's see, identifying a businessman for being a good businessman by not saying something he later will regret is now "a license to smear them" a "low thing to say" and "cowardly behavior"- I'm beginning to think that yellow-bellied sapsucker you claimed to have seen might have been a little bit of hyperbole on your part.

 

Despite the evidence you presented, you conveniently omitted the fact that the FA signings were replacements, not upgrades, and the payroll was still cut significantly overall. The rest of your comments drone on in meaningless garble (or warble, I guess, in your particular case). I am genuinely glad that the club went the extra mile to spend nearly every penny of that ~$12M in draft allotment, doing the things that clubs should automatically do should make Jim the early favorite for Executive of the Year. Next time you see Jim, tell him I will be the first one on here praising him when he acquires the two #2 quality starters you prophesy and/or brings in fresh blood and new perspectives both in the FO and and the field coaching staff.

[bird]

No monitoring being done, Mr. colorful, although I will not deny the powers-taht be moniker.

 

You said what you said. You simply "identified" a businessman. Right.

 

And look up two words. Hyperbole. Perhaps you can, given your incredibly colorful imagination, learn to use it correctly. And hypocrite. As in one guy being guilty of "perjorative namecalling and another more "colorful" guy simply "identifying" someone. Right.

[PseudoSABR]

When my points are specious, I too, rely on bold and italics.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Okay, that's enough. You've both said your piece. Now let's scale it back or the thread gets a lock.

[Highabove]

I'm continually amused by the examples posters use to support their argument that the Twins (Jim Pohlad) are cheap, and that Terry Ryan is a dinosaur. Yeah, let's go back to Ponson, and all the other pre-Target Field bargain basement signings. Let's ignore all the investments in the recent post-Target Field era. Ignore Willingham, Sano, Amaurys Minier, Doumit, using 97% of this year's draft budget, because instead, you can point to Marquis and blurt out something about the same old cheap dinosaurs, confident that your grasp on fangraphs is vastly superior to Ryan's. Or bring up "quotes" from over the last 15 years, ignoring that none of them were from Jim Pohlad really until maybe four years ago, and tell all of us how conclusively this proves that we're dealing with the same old cheap dinosaurs.

 

So, if Terry Ryan and Jim Pohlad trade for one #2-type starter, sign another #2-type starter, and otherwise cobble together a starting rotation for 2013 that finishes with an ERA in the top third in the American League, all while keeping the lineup they fixed this year intact, and all while keeping the bullpen they fixed this year intact, and all while continuing to dramatically shore up the farm system, then are you critics who spew out all the "old school" and "cheap" characterizations going to come back and admit your criticism was misguided and perhaps uncharitable?

 

OK, cool.

 

Last Season, the Pohlads sold more tickets then 26 other Teams. That includes Major Market Teams, such as the Red Sox, Cubs, Dodgers and Angels. The prices on those Tickets, were the 6th highest in Baseball for non premium seating. Those Fans were treated to an awful Product.

After the Record setting support they gave the Twins, Pohlad chose to slash the payroll.

I rest my case.