Vargas Movin' On Up... And Out? Riverbrian- This one's especially for you!

[Riverbrian]

 

Vargas had a nice season in the majors this year if a SSS and he has done a nice job taking more walks.  His numbers in AAA weren't as good - .233/.361/.424 - but he still showed decent k/bb ratios.  I think I'd line up next April with Joe at first, Sano at third and Park in AAA and let Vargas have month as primary DH.  But be prepared to move on when/fi he fails and/or Park is ready to take over.

 

I'm cool with that. 

 

 

[Riverbrian]

 

Vargas, with the effort and dedication he has put in to change his approach, has earned a shot at the DH role next year.  We want players to be wililng to work and improve, we should reward them when they do.  

 

And Vargas clearly has.

 

THIS

[Riverbrian]

 

If Vargas regresses next year he will be an ancient 26 year old losing value.  Trade them when their value peaks has been the motto.

 

He hasn't been given enough time to establish value. If he regresses... it's a short walk off the plank. 

 

IMO... Vargas is the guy that you let keep trying to earn himself a career. Vargas is clearly trying to do that. Just get out of his way. 

[Riverbrian]

 

how do you keep Mauer, Sano, and Vargas on a team with 12-13 pitchers? How do you get down to 11 pitchers on this team for two seasons? I can't answer either of those questions, but I'd really like the Twins to keep Vargas and play him regularly.

 

Those guys on the same roster are only an issue if the Manager takes the guy who is producing the best and puts him to sleep because he doesn't think he should be producing the best. 

 

[kab21]

 

Those guys on the same roster are only an issue if the Manager takes the guy who is producing the best and puts him to sleep because he doesn't think he should be producing the best. 

Those guys (Mauer, Sano and Vargas) on the same roster is only an issue if Sano truly can't play 3B.

[Riverbrian]

 

Those guys (Mauer, Sano and Vargas) on the same roster is only an issue if Sano truly can't play 3B.

 

Yep

 

Or if the manager believes he can't play 3B. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Yep

 

Or if the manager believes he can't play 3B. 

 

Or if we force feed Park back into the roster.

[kab21]

 

Or if we force feed Park back into the roster.

Yes, it goes without saying that only one of Park or Vargas can be on the roster. But then all 4 would have been listed.

[Rosterman]

Well, Vargas may be at his most valuable this off-season. He's playing first base, he is hitting well. You can hope it continues into the future. He is younger than Park. But do you keep Park because of the contract? If no one will take him, you have a $2 million first base/DH in the wings, then, at Rochester. But if you need someone at first, and Mauer goes to DH, can Sano play there? Does Plouffe play there (but only for a year). 

 

Besides catcher, the Twins could suddenly look weak at first base AND third base. So many possibilities (mainly short term).,

[TheLeviathan]

 

Yes, it goes without saying that only one of Park or Vargas can be on the roster. But then all 4 would have been listed.

 

I know, wasn't implying you forgot it.  Just mentioning it out of the hope we'll hire someone smart enough that it won't happen.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Those guys on the same roster are only an issue if the Manager takes the guy who is producing the best and puts him to sleep because he doesn't think he should be producing the best.

9 position players plus 12 pitchers plus 1 dh equals 22 of 25. 1 4th of, 1 if utility plus 1 bu catcher is all you got. Are you 100 percent committed to playing Sano at 3B all season and Vargas/Mauer at 1B/DH all season? Bench bat is a thing of the past

[jokin]

 

Well, Vargas may be at his most valuable this off-season. He's playing first base, he is hitting well. You can hope it continues into the future. He is younger than Park. But do you keep Park because of the contract? If no one will take him, you have a $2 million first base/DH in the wings, then, at Rochester. \

 

 

Park actually makes $2.75M in 2017, moving up to $3M in both 2018 and 2019. At this point, the Twins seem to be on the hook for all three years- I mean, how many teams would be willing to take on 3 years worth of potential liability for a 30+ year old minor league first baseman at the price?

[jokin]

 

Those guys on the same roster are only an issue if the Manager takes the guy who is producing the best and puts him to sleep because he doesn't think he should be producing the best. 

 

Rarely have I seen such gut-shot, succinct brevity... well-played, Sir, but then, Kennys is your guy and most certainly not Paulie's guy.

[Riverbrian]

 

9 position players plus 12 pitchers plus 1 dh equals 22 of 25. 1 4th of, 1 if utility plus 1 bu catcher is all you got. Are you 100 percent committed to playing Sano at 3B all season and Vargas/Mauer at 1B/DH all season? Bench bat is a thing of the past

 

I'm not an everyday starter guy... Unless you have Kris Bryant or Mike Trout or Manny Machado. Those guys are necessary to play every day.

 

Trevor Plouffe and Joe Mauer do not produce like indispensable superstars and they have not produced at a superstar level in quite some time to be everyday guys and yet they are scheduled daily into the lineups when healthy and this is where my primary issue lies and Kennys Vargas has become my poster child for this frustration of mine because Vargas has out hit everyone not named Dozier. Yet... he wasn't allowed to continue proving himself because Plouffe and Mauer had to be in the lineup everyday and I guess I'm just not over it yet. 

 

I also realize that Vargas could actually regress but I'd like to see him do that regressing himself as opposed to Molitor regressing him on purpose. 

 

I also understand that the Twins are trying to develop indispensable future superstars with Sano and Buxton but I also believe that until they perform like indispensable superstars. One game a week on the bench will not stunt their development either. 

 

If Molly would just stop managing like Plouffe and Mauer are Arenado and Goldschmidt... everybody could get decent playing time. Mauer did not stop Kennys... Plouffe did not stop Kennys... Sano did not stop Kennys... Kennys did not stop Kennys because he was out performing them all. Paul Molitor stopped Kennys and the only thing that makes sense is that he believes that Kennys shouldn't be out performing them all so he becomes a self fulfilling prophecy or whatever. 

 

I'm leary and frankly tired of projections and I'm worn down to the gumline when it comes to the talent assessments being made by the people who make such assessments for my Minnesota Twins. 

 

I'd like the players to prove it on the field and when somebody actually does... I'll have their Back. 

 

What was your question again...

 

Oh Yeah... Am I 100% committed to Sano at 3B?

 

Nope...I'm not. You need exit strategies for everything in life... Third base included... Vargas included. 

 

He's young... I'm going to keep giving him starts at 3B and give him the chance to earn it but I'm also thinking about letting Plouffe walk  and trading for someone like Brett Lawrie as insurance at 3B and 2B for more flexibility 

 

 

I want 13 players who can play and I want competition for playing time. I don't want 9 and 4 others. 

 

 

[ScrapTheNickname]

 

I'm a firm believer that once the cancer that is Mauer is gone, the team will use that money to sign a top notch FA ace and we will return to the dominance that his attendance on this team for so many years stopped us from achieving.

Cancer? Come now, there must be a more accurate term.

[jokin]

 

I'm not an everyday starter guy... Unless you have Kris Bryant or Mike Trout or Manny Machado. Those guys are necessary to play every day.

 

Trevor Plouffe and Joe Mauer do not produce like indispensable superstars and they have not produced at a superstar level in quite some time to be everyday guys and yet they are scheduled daily into the lineups when healthy and this is where my primary issue lies and Kennys Vargas has become my poster child for this frustration of mine because Vargas has out hit everyone not named Dozier. Yet... he wasn't allowed to continue proving himself because Plouffe and Mauer had to be in the lineup everyday and I guess I'm just not over it yet. 

 

I also realize that Vargas could actually regress but I'd like to see him do that regressing himself as opposed to Molitor regressing him on purpose. 

 

 

 

If Molly would just stop managing like Plouffe and Mauer are Arenado and Goldschmidt... everybody could get decent playing time. Mauer did not stop Kennys... Plouffe did not stop Kennys... Sano did not stop Kennys... Kennys did not stop Kennys because he was out performing them all. Paul Molitor stopped Kennys and the only thing that makes sense is that he believes that Kennys shouldn't be out performing them all so he becomes a self fulfilling prophecy or whatever. 

 

I'm leary and frankly tired of projections and I'm worn down to the gumline when it comes to the talent assessments being made by the people who make such assessments for my Minnesota Twins. 

 

I'd like the players to prove it on the field and when somebody actually does... I'll have their Back. 

 

What was your question again...

 

 

If Molitor had just done this to Vargas once and didn't make the same mistake twice, that would be one thing, but he has never done anything but ultimately hit the Destruct button on Vargas, even twice when he was in the midst of just about being the Twins' hottest hitter. And also, twice now he's been called up in September, seemingly the time when guys like Vargas are brought up to make their case for the following season and Molitor has barely barely let Vargas sniff the lineup- only to be replaced, as in each other demotion, by the same tired old options.

[Mr. Brooks]

9 position players plus 12 pitchers plus 1 dh equals 22 of 25. 1 4th of, 1 if utility plus 1 bu catcher is all you got. Are you 100 percent committed to playing Sano at 3B all season and Vargas/Mauer at 1B/DH all season? Bench bat is a thing of the past

It's actually 8 position players plus a DH, so that does actually leave you room for a bench bat.

[jimmer]

 

Cancer? Come now, there must be a more accurate term.

Plague? :-)

[Brock Beauchamp]

Park actually makes $2.75M in 2017, moving up to $3M in both 2018 and 2019. At this point, the Twins seem to be on the hook for all three years- I mean, how many teams would be willing to take on 3 years worth of potential liability for a 30+ year old minor league first baseman at the price?

I imagine several teams would take a flyer on him, they simply wouldn't pay anything to do it.

 

Look at the Meyer/Nolasco trade. Teams will take on money for modest upside. In Park's case, the money is virtually nothing. Literally 1.25% of payroll for a team like the Dodgers.

[Jham]

http://www.startribune.com/twins-kennys-vargas-puts-it-this-way-i-need-to-hit-home-runs/394220591/#

 

“I’m sure he’d like to be more consistent in terms of elevating the ball and getting it over the fence, but it can be a double-edged sword,” Molitor said.

“You [can] start to develop an undercut and have trouble catching the higher velocity and you pop up more than you hit home runs. There’s a lot of times when a line drive works better than elevating the ball.”

Seriously Molly?  GTFO.

[Loosey]

 

I can see where Vargas plays: DH, with the occasional 1B.

 

Sano is at 3B or 1B, with DH when Vargas isn't.

 

I don't think it is all that hard to figure out.

 

As for what is happening now....sigh....

Completely Agree this scenario should happen There are essentially 3 positions Sano can play (DH, 1B and 3B) Vargas can play 2 (DH and 1B).  Park is a sunk cost in my mind.  Maybe he flashes some next year and can be dealt for a C/B prospect.  But there is definite room for Vargas.  If people before were saying Arcia is going to be another Ortiz, Vargas actually could be that scenario in my opinion.   

 

 As for now . . . it's just Molitor doing Molitor things - It tells me he doesn't care about next year because he is going to "talk with his family" then retire from managing.  That's my hope anyways.

[kab21]

The only reason not to keep Park next year is if he is upset about being in AAA. Right now the Twins have enough 1B and DH but that can change quickly. I think he is a legit MLB player and would like the option of calling him up vs the next Erik Lis if a player gets injured.

[Doomtints]

Current/past front office almost certainly ditches Vargas (for little to nothing) and promotes Park back up next year.

 

Who knows what the next front office will do.

 

Vargas probably hopes to be traded so he can play regularly and go all Ortiz on us.  Vargas has been good all year and there is no good reason to keep him off the field.  His "bad year" last year consisted of a bad start which he was recovering from very well when he was demoted.  

[jokin]

 

Current/past front office almost certainly ditches Vargas (for little to nothing) and promotes Park back up next year.

 

Who knows what the next front office will do.

 

Vargas probably hopes to be traded so he can play regularly and go all Ortiz on us.  Vargas has been good all year and there is no good reason to keep him off the field.  His "bad year" last year consisted of a bad start which he was recovering from very well when he was demoted.  

 

Yup. I've documented elsewhere the numbers Vargas put up in May, 2015. He was by far the Twins best hitter- and seemed to have "made the adjustments" from the hitting habits that the Twins management chose to publicly chastise him for in April of that year.

 

It's ironic that Molitor came into the manager's job with accompanying praise for his careful attention to sabremetric information to help guide him on when and how to utilize his available offensive weaponry- and yet willingly pulled the plug on Vargas when he was hitting on all cylinders, twice now.

 

[jimmer]

 

Yup. I've documented elsewhere the numbers Vargas put up in May, 2015. He was by far the Twins best hitter- and seemed to have "made the adjustments" from the hitting habits that the Twins management chose to publicly chastise him for in April of that year.

 

It's ironic that Molitor came into the manager's job with accompanying praise for his careful attention to sabremetric information to help guide him on when and how to utilize his available offensive weaponry- and yet willingly pulled the plug on Vargas when he was hitting on all cylinders, twice now.

Molitor's in-game management and comments make me believe he is very far from being an actual sabremetric guy.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Look, I like Vargas.  I've said earlier that I want the bulk of 1B/DH time to be Vargas and Park...

 

 

But Vargas put up a .626 OPS last season in 175 at bats.  That's a bad season and certainly worthy of demotion for a DH/1B type, not a bad game. 

 

Now, should the Twins have been more patient with him?  Perhaps, but let's not forget that they were actually winning games and they replaced him with some kid Sano.  I won't fault them too much with how they handled Vargas last season, and I do think he should be penciled in as the starting DH in 2017, but let's not re-write history.

[jokin]

Molitor's in-game management and comments make me believe he is very far from being an actual sabremetric guy.

Remember back when Gardy appeared wholly intimidated by all of Molly's newfangled stat stuff?

Good times.

 

Yep, and my best guess is that the new GM Is going to give Molitor multiple dings with respect to stat analysis on his performance review.... that is... provided that Molitor somehow survives in the position long enough to get a performance review...

[kab21]

 

Current/past front office almost certainly ditches Vargas (for little to nothing) and promotes Park back up next year.

 

The clear evidence of this would be Vargas being called up multiple times while Park spent the rest of the season in AAA before getting injured.

[The Wise One]

 

Yup. I've documented elsewhere the numbers Vargas put up in May, 2015. He was by far the Twins best hitter- and seemed to have "made the adjustments" from the hitting habits that the Twins management chose to publicly chastise him for in April of that year.

 

It's ironic that Molitor came into the manager's job with accompanying praise for his careful attention to sabremetric information to help guide him on when and how to utilize his available offensive weaponry- and yet willingly pulled the plug on Vargas when he was hitting on all cylinders, twice now.

Cherry picking  2 weeks of good numbers  does not offset the month of June that you chose not to see Does a 65 WRC for June make you the second best hitter?.

[Doomtints]

 

The clear evidence of this would be Vargas being called up multiple times while Park spent the rest of the season in AAA before getting injured.

 

He should have been up the whole time and starting.  He has a .905 OPS this year.  

 

Vargas is the 900 OPS guy the team has.  Park is guy the team wants to have the .900 OPS, however.