Twins shopping Morneau

[DaveW]

Cause Justin "Dizzy" Morneau is really driving ticket sales.

 

This **** is no different then the mid to late 90's. Keep an eye towards the future and countdown the clock till you get some of these bad contracts off the books.

It's quite a bit different. The Twins have a solid 25-30 million to spend in free agency this off-season to obtain some SP help. Also next year should be exciting with Gibson, Arcia, Benson, Hicks and possibly Rosario all seeing some time at the major league level.

[Boom Boom]

Most season ticket holders are smart enough to know that standing pat on the Morneau situation isn't going to make this team any more competitive next year than they are right now. Hell, they already have Morneau and it doesn't matter.

 

If they can unload some of that salary, they might be able to sign players who would drive season ticket sales better than Morneau.

[DPJ]

It's quite a bit different. The Twins have a solid 25-30 million to spend in free agency this off-season to obtain some SP help. Also next year should be exciting with Gibson, Arcia, Benson, Hicks and possibly Rosario all seeing some time at the major league level.

Yeah a bunch of prospect to sell hope from...it's totally not like the mid to late 90's.

 

Rosario...really?

[diehardtwinsfan]

Whether anyone likes it or not, this team is going to try to compete in 2013. I'm not sure if hanging on to Morneau is going to help in that regard, though I'm hard pressed to see how it will hurt. Consider the facts... 1) Morneau will net nothing in terms of a decent propsect. 2) Morneau's upside is very high, and he's giving enough reason now to show that you might see something closer to the pre-concussion Morneau next season, plus, even if he isn't that contract won't be a factor for a team looking for deadline help in 2013. 3) Getting rid of Morneau and one of Span/Willingham opens up an OF spot with no short term replacement (where Parmalee could fit there now).

 

That said, I think they go after starting pitching. They have no choice really as they need 2 or 3 decent starters, and they'll need them for the 2014/15 teams as well. My fear is that they go after guys slightly better than Marquis. I'd like them to go after Anibel Sanchez, and take some risks with guys like Bedard... As well, hopefully they add a couple of guys to Rochester like Jonathan Sanchez.

[DaveW]

Yeah a bunch of prospect to sell hope from...it's totally not like the mid to late 90's.

 

Rosario...really?

The lineup is already quite a bit better than the mid to late 90's teams, adding in guys like Arcia, Hicks, Benson etc only helps booster your club and allows you trade trade away some aging assets to keep the farm restocked.

 

Yeah I was a bit aggresive on Rosario, but I wouldn't be shocked to see him move quickly next year from A+ to AA by the break. Maybe we could see him next Sept, but he is still super young. Even with Gibson, Hicks, Arcia and Benson all potentially being up sometime in 2013 it is something to be excited about, that is four of our top 6 or 7 prospects.

[DaveW]

Whether anyone likes it or not, this team is going to try to compete in 2013. I'm not sure if hanging on to Morneau is going to help in that regard, though I'm hard pressed to see how it will hurt. Consider the facts... 1) Morneau will net nothing in terms of a decent propsect. 2) Morneau's upside is very high, and he's giving enough reason now to show that you might see something closer to the pre-concussion Morneau next season, plus, even if he isn't that contract won't be a factor for a team looking for deadline help in 2013. 3) Getting rid of Morneau and one of Span/Willingham opens up an OF spot with no short term replacement (where Parmalee could fit there now).

 

That said, I think they go after starting pitching. They have no choice really as they need 2 or 3 decent starters, and they'll need them for the 2014/15 teams as well. My fear is that they go after guys slightly better than Marquis. I'd like them to go after Anibel Sanchez, and take some risks with guys like Bedard... As well, hopefully they add a couple of guys to Rochester like Jonathan Sanchez.

I agree with all of this, I however don't think Anibel Sanchez will even get the chance to see free agency. Seems like the talk around the Tigers is if he preforms well they plan on locking him up, which would make sense because they did give up a pretty significant package to get him.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Yeah a bunch of prospect to sell hope from...it's totally not like the mid to late 90's.

 

Rosario...really?

Is this like the late 90s? Possibly.

 

Is this like the mid 90s? Absolutely not.

 

Right now, the Twins have a bonafide superstar in his prime, several positions are locked up with players in their prime, arbitration years, or just on the other side of their primes. Does that make them a good team? No, but it makes them a hell of a lot more promising than the mid 90s teams that were bursting at the seams with aging veterans well past their best years.

[DPJ]

Is this like the late 90s? Possibly.

 

Is this like the mid 90s? Absolutely not.

 

Right now, the Twins have a bonafide superstar in his prime, several positions are locked up with players in their prime, arbitration years, or just on the other side of their primes. Does that make them a good team? No, but it makes them a hell of a lot more promising than the mid 90s teams that were bursting at the seams with aging veterans well past their best years.

 

Maybe a bit agressive with the mid-90's, but IMO this is just as had as the late 90's teams. Yes they have a star in Mauer and a couple nice players like Willingham and others. But outside of having some money to spend and a shiny new stadium, I don't see much of difference between those teams in now.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Presently: (intentionally omitting Span and Liriano who I expect to be traded)

 

Star: Mauer

Solid (average or better) pieces: Willingham, Doumit, Burton, Perkins

Potentially solid or better pieces: Dozier, Parmalee, Plouffe (and I'd argue there's a potential star here if that bat is for real), Revere (lots more downside on this one I think), Diamond, Burnet

 

Near future (all of whom should be average or better in their positions): Arcia, Hicks, Benson, Gibson, Hendricks

 

This team looks pretty solid on offense next year, especially since I don't think it's a terrible thing to count on Dozier, Parmalee, or Plouffe to perform average or better and becoming solid pieces for the long term, and 2014 looks pretty bright with the talent coming in. The problem is pitching, pitching, and pitching. If they spent that 25M wisely on pitching, this team should finish above .500. It will be competitve in that sense, though I'm not sure it wins a division.

[CDog]

Maybe a bit agressive with the mid-90's, but IMO this is just as had as the late 90's teams. Yes they have a star in Mauer and a couple nice players like Willingham and others. But outside of having some money to spend and a shiny new stadium, I don't see much of difference between those teams in now.

So they're the same with the exception of a few better players and more money to spend? Isn't that a longer way of saying they're not the same?

[DPJ]

So they're the same with the exception of a few better players and more money to spend? Isn't that a longer way of saying they're not the same?

They're in the same position of being a horrible team with no help in sight.

[DaveW]

They're in the same position of being a horrible team with no help in sight.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

 

Damnit pig it caps me at 4 smiles per post!

[DPJ]

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

 

Damnit pig it caps me at 4 smiles per post!

Dave you can get hard over Hicks and all the minor league kids all you want, but there's no help in sight for atleast a good 2-3 years. The chances that these kids come up and make a positive contribution right out the gate are slim to none. The pitching is still a mess, you're gonna have to overpay for the Edwin Jackson or Anibel Sanchez of the world (who are an improvement, but not that good) NTM not all these kids are gonna make it as everyday MLB players. I'm just looking at this realisitically, I told you this **** was coming even when they were winning 90+ games, the bad signings, bad drafts and bad trades have finally caught up to this team and this is what were stuck with.

 

I know at this point all we can grasp on is the future in the minors...but it ain't that bright.

[Siehbiscuit]

Morneau is gone in the off-season. Butera is loved by the organization and Ryan Doumit was just locked up for the next couple of years. Mauer and Doumit equal 1 catcher, 3/4 DH and 1/4 1B. Parmalee will be at 1B 3/4 of the time next year as he is out of options after this year, kinda like Plouffe is this year. Morneau will be traded, but the Twins would get more in return (either in straight salary dump or in prospects, not both) by waiting and hoping Morneau can put together a solid last few weeks.

 

@DPJ this team is not THAT far away. The offense may need some minor tweaks in 2013, but that has been the least of the problems. Even when Crain, Guerrier and Rauch leave and everyone is clamoring for bullpen arms, the Twins bullpen somehow gets pieced together and is respectable. The Twins minor league system is seriously lacking in quality starting pitching. Gibson and Wimmers injuries have greatly hindered the forecast for projected rotations of this year and next. The contract of Blackburn hamstrings the Twins next year as well and the injury of Scott Baker kills most of his availability of him next year if he were to be brought back. The Twins have to trade for or sign FA pitching this off-season. If Span doesn't go at the deadline, the Twins will deal him in the off-season for a solid starting pitcher. There are too many OF prospects on the verge to not do this. The immediate future isn't "bright" as in surface of the sun, but the Twins aren't a lost cause. Our pitching has had some really bad luck with injuries in both the minors and majors, but with Morneau coming off the books and Liriano, Pavano and likely Baker that is A LOT of money to put back into pitching. The Twins will be fine. So in summary, move Span and Morneau, because there are capable replacements in place. Get starting pitching for them because there is very little within the organization ready to contribute next year (Gibson at best by June).

[DPJ]

The Twins will be fine

Back to back 90+ loss seasons and everything is coming up roses!!

 

Either people don't wanna accept the fact, but this franchise is in very very bad place right now.

[Riverbrian]

Morneau is gone in the off-season. Butera is loved by the organization and Ryan Doumit was just locked up for the next couple of years. Mauer and Doumit equal 1 catcher, 3/4 DH and 1/4 1B. Parmalee will be at 1B 3/4 of the time next year as he is out of options after this year, kinda like Plouffe is this year. Morneau will be traded, but the Twins would get more in return (either in straight salary dump or in prospects, not both) by waiting and hoping Morneau can put together a solid last few weeks.

 

 

Parmalee is out of options? I learned something new. That kinda changes the dynamics.

 

I assumed that Morneau would be back with us next year but if Parmalee is out of options that kinda crowd things at 1B.

 

Is Parmalee considered to be an important part of the Twins Future or is he projected to be a backup. Whatever the answer to that question will be important in determining what needs to be done with Morneau. If Parmalee is part of our future... He can't go through another year like this year with the time spent on the MLB bench.

 

Parmalee will have to move in front of Justin next year on the depth chart. Wouldn't he?

[DaveW]

Parmalee is out of options? I learned something new. That kinda changes the dynamics.

 

I assumed that Morneau would be back with us next year but if Parmalee is out of options that kinda crowd things at 1B.

 

Is Parmalee considered to be an important part of the Twins Future or is he projected to be a backup. Whatever the answer to that question will be important in determining what needs to be done with Morneau. If Parmalee is part of our future... He can't go through another year like this year with the time spent on the MLB bench.

 

Parmalee will have to move in front of Justin next year on the depth chart. Wouldn't he?

Parmalee can always play in the OF....... the Twins shouldn't be running Morneau out of town for a guy who hasn't really proven himself in the majors or minors.

[J-Dog Dungan]

@Siehbuscuit Morneau still has a year left on his deal, so the Twins have some time to trade him and get him to build his trade value up.

[DPJ]

Parmalee can always play in the OF....... the Twins shouldn't be running Morneau out of town for a guy who hasn't really proven himself in the majors or minors.

But maybe Parm has a chance be be part of the future while Morneau is a 14 million dollar paperweight that can't go away quick enough.

[Guest USAFChief]

I'm confused. The same people (person?) arguing the Twins should be dumping every veteran to "make a run in 2014" seem to be simultaneously arguing the Twins minor league system is crap and the team "is in a bad place" right now.

 

Selling low on Morneau now makes no sense. Pretending to know he'll never return to being a legitimate middle of the order hitter is ridiculously shortsighted. If he doesn't ever get better than right now, he can still be dealt next summer. If he even comes close to returning to what he was, your options are a lot Better than they are now.

 

Is the goal to save the Pohlads as much money as possible? Or is it to return to being a 90 win team as soon as possible?

[TheLeviathan]

If Morneau's deal had 5 more years on it, I could sympathize with dumping him. With his current status I just don't see that as necessary - either get good value or hang on to him. Parm is ready, but he'll have a chance in the OF/DH role next year anyway.

[Oxtung]

I see little reason to trade Morneau for the sake of a salary dump. He will be traded at the next deadline. Until then he is only blocking Parmelee and if an OF is traded there is a spot that opens up. Then Parmelee can move to 1st and you have a spot open to call up Benson/Hicks. Holding Morneau allows him to at least partially regain his value.

[Riverbrian]

Parmalee can always play in the OF....... the Twins shouldn't be running Morneau out of town for a guy who hasn't really proven himself in the majors or minors.

I guess it depends on the Twins Projection of the Career and Value of Parmalee going forward.

 

It sounds like you are in the camp of Parmalee as a backup like Plouffe was to begin this year. I haven't seen enough of Chris to decide what camp i'm in. I just always felt that it was Justin's job until his contract was up or until he was traded.

 

The Parmalee out of options wrinkle got me thinking differently. If the Twins think they can contend in 2013. I can't imagine a scenerio where Parmalee starts over Morneau. Even if they don't think they can contend... You don't screw up any trade value by benching Morneau.

 

But... if you are building for the future. Is Parmalee the long range guy at 1b? Interesting!!!

 

If Parmalee is thought of as a bench guy in 2013 like Plouffe. The Twins might as well move Sano over to 1B during the off season.

 

Personally, I know that I don't want Parmalee in the OF. I think one slow corner is fine. Both Corners on the slower side is a major concern in my book and Willingham will be patroling in the OF. Our pitching staff will need all the help they can get out there.

[Oxtung]

I guess it depends on the Twins Projection of the Career and Value of Parmalee going forward.

 

It sounds like you are in the camp of Parmalee as a backup like Plouffe was to begin this year. I haven't seen enough of Chris to decide what camp i'm in. I just always felt that it was Justin's job until his contract was up or until he was traded.

 

The Parmalee out of options wrinkle got me thinking differently. If the Twins think they can contend in 2013. I can't imagine a scenerio where Parmalee starts over Morneau. Even if they don't think they can contend... You don't screw up any trade value by benching Morneau.

 

But... if you are building for the future. Is Parmalee the long range guy at 1b? Interesting!!!

 

If Parmalee is thought of as a bench guy in 2013 like Plouffe. The Twins might as well move Sano over to 1B during the off season.

 

Personally, I know that I don't want Parmalee in the OF. I think one slow corner is fine. Both Corners on the slower side is a major concern in my book and Willingham will be patroling in the OF. Our pitching staff will need all the help they can get out there.

Nobody is saying Parmelee long term in the RF. He would be out there for 1/2 a season, until a decision is made on Morneau, getting everyday at bats to see if he is a replacement for Morneau at 1st. After next trade deadline either Morneau is gone or he has turned things around enough that the Twins have decided to resign him to a contract. If Morneau is traded now you move Parmelee back to 1st. If Morneau is re-signed then you know Parmelee isn't in your future plans anyways. Either way that opens up RF for Benson or Hicks whoever is showing they're ready. Of course if neither of them are ready then there isn't a rush to move Parmelee. All of this of course is dependent on Span/Revere being traded before next season.

 

As for Sano, his future position shouldn't be tied to anything other than what he can play. You want him to play the hardest position he is comfortable at because that increases his value both to the team and for future trade potential. So where Sano ends up should in no way be tied to any decision on Morneau or Parmelee.

[nicksaviking]

Parmelee was added to the 40-man November of 2010, meaning this is only his second season on the roster. Unless there is another obscure rule that applies to Parmelee (and there certainly could be), he has a third option year in 2013. Many people think every time a player gets promoted/demoted in the same season means they lose an option; I'm not sure if that was the cause of the initial confusion.

[CDog]

Parmelee was added to the 40-man November of 2010, meaning this is only his second season on the roster. Unless there is another obscure rule that applies to Parmelee (and there certainly could be), he has a third option year in 2013. Many people think every time a player gets promoted/demoted in the same season means they lose an option; I'm not sure if that was the cause of the initial confusion.

As I was first reading that, I thought you meant there could be a rule that applies only and specifically to Parmalee. That amused me for some reason. I needed something Twins related to amuse me today. So yay!

[howeda7]

I'd hate to be the guy who you have something against.

 

The injuries are a concern no doubt but it is quite possible that he can turn around and it can happen real quick.

If he made $7 million instead of $14, I'd be fine keeping him. Getting rid of his salary is the difference between making a run at a top-end starter like Grienke and bringing in Pavano Part II.

[twinsnorth49]

If he made $7 million instead of $14, I'd be fine keeping him. Getting rid of his salary is the difference between making a run at a top-end starter like Grienke and bringing in Pavano Part II.

 

Morneau's salary isn't going to prevent them from making a run at a top end starter, if that's what they want to do.

[howeda7]

Morneau's salary isn't going to prevent them from making a run at a top end starter, if that's what they want to do.

They can probably afford one either way. But without trading Morneau, signing a Grienke will eat almost the entire amount available. They need at least one other mid-level starter and perhaps an OF'er if Span is moved, etc.

[Oxtung]

If he made $7 million instead of $14, I'd be fine keeping him. Getting rid of his salary is the difference between making a run at a top-end starter like Grienke and bringing in Pavano Part II.

Good God let's all hope they don't make a run at a top end starter. That would not only eat up whatever budget the Twins have available this year but for the next 5-6 years too. Anybody seriously contemplating signing a Greinke or Lincecum (assuming he can return to form and is available next year) should think about this; Mauer + Linceke would be ~50% of the Twins payroll.