Paris Attacks

[Mike Sixel]

I think everyone is scared about terrorism and ISIS (and other things) to some degree. It certainly scares me what kind of world my sons will be living in over the next 100 years or so......but to me, and I'm not saying others are wrong, but to me, I can't be so scared that I can condemn thousands to die by outlawing them coming here on the chance (likelihood, frankly) that one or more of them is a bad person that will do harm here. I just can't see that as the most right thing to do. Maybe I'm wrong, and US lives are more valuable (my view on how some are viewing this, I could be wrong) than Syrian lives. But I just can't see that. I don't blame others for being more scared, and wanting to do SOMETHING to feel safer. But just as we were wrong to fear the Irish immigration, the Jewish immigration, and that fear caused us to intern Japanese....I am certain we are wrong to condemn innocent people to death by saying they should stay in the Middle East.....but I don't blame people for disagreeing with me. But as long as I can vote, I'll vote for those with me, that have looked at our past, and tried to learn to be compassionate even in the face of fear.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

I suppose it doesn't help when even an article as relatively factual and straightforward as Wood's gets the lefty treatment. (I'm sure some righties used it to enflame Islamaphobia) Doesnt leave a lot of room for good sense in the discussion.

Your article is just one small piece of the discussion. 

 

What are your thoughts on some of the other links other people are posting?

[TheLeviathan]

I'd welcome the refugees, they're fleeing the same viscious bastards that we may just have to wipe off the planet. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Your article is just one small piece of the discussion. 

 

What are your thoughts on some of the other links other people are posting?

 

It's one very large, thorough piece that tells an accurate story.

 

You'll have to be specific about what other links you are referring to.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

It's one very large, thorough piece that tells an accurate story.

 

You'll have to be specific about what other links you are referring to.

Well, I was referring to the links in this thread. Links that other people are posting.  

 

Meanwhile let me ask you: why are you using the word bastards to describe them?

[TheLeviathan]

 

Well, I was referring to the links in this thread. Links that other people are posting.  

 

Meanwhile let me ask you: why are you using the word bastards to describe them?

 

Because the forum decency rules prevent me from more colorful language.

 

There are a LOT of links in this thread, not sure what you want me to respond to.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

Because the forum decency rules prevent me from more colorful language.

 

There are a LOT of links in this thread, not sure what you want me to respond to.

As many or as few as you'd like 

 

I am hearing the word 'bastard' around on social media, that reporter during the press conference, and then posters here. Just wondering if it's a dog whistle. Sounds like it is but not sure.

 

So again, answer away on those other links.

[TheLeviathan]

 

As many or as few as you'd like 

 

I am hearing the word 'bastard' around on social media, that reporter during the press conference, and then posters here. Just wondering if it's a dog whistle. Sounds like it is but not sure.

 

So again, answer away on those other links.

 

So you want me to scroll back and randomly find links to respond to for your amusement?

 

Um, no thank you.   If there is something specific, by all means.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

So you want me to scroll back and randomly find links to respond to for your amusement?

 

Um, no thank you.   If there is something specific, by all means.

Well, this was a discussion, right?

 

Anyway, give me some time and I'll get back to it later.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

1800 slavery was wrong, even if "Christian" churches said it was ok. Denying basic rights to gays is wrong, even 10 years ago. There is right, and there is wrong. Regardless of what some book might or might not say. I don't expect everyone to agree on this....

I agree but that is through the lens of today's society.

 

It's possible, maybe even likely, the entire western world will be vegan in 200 years and we'll all be considered barbarians for eating the flesh and products of animals.

 

And someone 200 years from now will say "eating the flesh and products of animals has always been wrong".

[Shane Wahl]

Has anyone seen any information on whether or not ISIS does *anything remotely* beneficial for the communities it is in? What I mean by that is that Hamas and even al qaeda will often "buy" loyalty through aid and support sometimes . . . like the drug dealer who gives a kid shoes to buy his service. Hamas does do a fair amount of charity work (even if, clearly, the motivations are dubious).

If not, then ISIS is wildly rare. No movement can generally sustain itself on outright viciousness. Machiavelli and whatnot . . .

[Brock Beauchamp]

Has anyone seen any information on whether or not ISIS does *anything remotely* beneficial for the communities it is in? What I mean by that is that Hamas and even al qaeda will often "buy" loyalty through aid and support sometimes . . . like the drug dealer who gives a kid shoes to buy his service. Hamas does do a fair amount of charity work (even if, clearly, the motivations are dubious).

 

If not, then ISIS is wildly rare. No movement can generally sustain itself on outright viciousness. Machiavelli and whatnot . . .

They do quite a bit for their communities. Fix roads, restore running water, etc. they often try to restore some of the infrastructure that has been missing for years.

[Badsmerf]

Just want to say, this is a great thread. I'm more interested in this discussion than any sports talk. I'm grateful that we have this medium to fulfill this need.

 

It feels like we are continually fighting the symptoms of radical Islam, and not the problem itself. Personally, I dislike religion because it is open to interpretation and not finite (like math, where I have a bachelor's). The question I ask, is why these people being ruled over haven't revolted? This type of oppression in the US would be quickly revolted against. But, our country was founded on fighting for freedom. So perhaps it is ingrained in us to fight for freedom. That part of the world doesn't have that and never has. I do feel the culture of Islam prevents it.

 

The problem this culture presents, is more radical and aggressive ideas excel over progressiveness. Free ideas, individualism, challenging the status quo, are all not only discouraged, not only illegal, but punishable by death (death of course according to isis). Even if we don't go full crazy like isis does, this is not a place that allows new ideas to prosper.

 

I don't have a solution to that. How do you fix something that has been broken for thousands of years? Create the right conditions and radicalism will quickly become less tempting.

[Shane Wahl]

 

They do quite a bit for their communities. Fix roads, restore running water, etc. they often try to restore some of the infrastructure that has been missing for years.

 

Really? Well than the "Bill Hicks" radical suggestion comes into play. Abundant humanitarian aid to desperately more people in the region ("food not bombs"). It's hard to brainwash against that.

[Mike Sixel]

The more successful a secular nation made up primarily of Muslims, the better radicalism can be fought. Education is also key, if everyone around you "knows" that Israelis eat Muslim children at Passover (actually taught in parts of Saudi Arabia, IIRC), you aren't likely to view them as something that should exist......

[Shane Wahl]

 

 

Just want to say, this is a great thread. I'm more interested in this discussion than any sports talk. I'm grateful that we have this medium to fulfill this need.

It feels like we are continually fighting the symptoms of radical Islam, and not the problem itself. Personally, I dislike religion because it is open to interpretation and not finite (like math, where I have a bachelor's). The question I ask, is why these people being ruled over haven't revolted? This type of oppression in the US would be quickly revolted against. But, our country was founded on fighting for freedom. So perhaps it is ingrained in us to fight for freedom. That part of the world doesn't have that and never has. I do feel the culture of Islam prevents it.

The problem this culture presents, is more radical and aggressive ideas excel over progressiveness. Free ideas, individualism, challenging the status quo, are all not only discouraged, not only illegal, but punishable by death (death of course according to isis). Even if we don't go full crazy like isis does, this is not a place that allows new ideas to prosper.

I don't have a solution to that. How do you fix something that has been broken for thousands of years? Create the right conditions and radicalism will quickly become less tempting.

It's all in Plato's "Allegory of the Cave." Imagine prisoners chained up in a cave in such a way that the "truth" for them is whatever they can see directly in front of them. The cave permits no sunlight ("Reason" for Plato, and the sun is the "Good") and instead there is a fire behind these prisoners. Between the fire and the prisoners is a wall for puppeteers to dance little puppets around. These "puppets" are really just meant to cast shadows on the cave wall, and can be the puppeteers' definitions of truth, justice, goodness, etc. The whole perception of reality for these prisoners is contrived by the people who have the power, and the prisoners have no outside perspective to engage with these "truths" as anything other than absolutely certain.

 

Now that is quite easy to do in highly illiterate societies. More subtle means are used in societies like ours, usually through media, pharmaceuticals etc.

The "Enlightenment" was the natural result of returning to Classical thinkers like Plato.

Much of the world doesn't even have a chance (see how women are treated around the world for instance).

In our country many people seem *willing* to chain themselves to this ignorance.

[Squirrel]

Really? Well than the "Bill Hicks" radical suggestion comes into play. Abundant humanitarian aid to desperately more people in the region ("food not bombs"). It's hard to brainwash against that.

Yes. And not turning away refugees.

[twinsnorth49]

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/02/what-muslims-really-want-isis-atlantic/386156/

 

I like this, it represents a lot of what I've been poorly trying to say.

 

 

I also like this.......I'm with him.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34862437

[Mike Sixel]

That Atlantic argument sums up the issues well.......but it's way harder to understand than "any muslim that denies ISIS is a liar".......

[Squirrel]

 

Yes. And not turning away refugees.

 

I meant to add this to my post but forgot.

[TheLeviathan]

 

The more successful a secular nation made up primarily of Muslims, the better radicalism can be fought. Education is also key, if everyone around you "knows" that Israelis eat Muslim children at Passover (actually taught in parts of Saudi Arabia, IIRC), you aren't likely to view them as something that should exist......

 

Theocracies are dangerous.  That is a problem in many parts of the Muslim world - the educational processes steers towards devotion over knowledge.

[TheLeviathan]

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/02/what-muslims-really-want-isis-atlantic/386156/

 

I like this, it represents a lot of what I've been poorly trying to say.

 

 

It was a good article, had some good rebuttals, but I think it misses an alternative.  Muslims don't have to either be quiet or respond that ISIS is not Islam, there can be another choice.  Namely, to say that ISIS is exclusively selected only what is in the Quran that fits their agenda and missed the larger, more representative heart of the religion.

 

Wood is right, ISIS is fundamentally Islamic and it's beliefs and practices come right out of the Quran.  But they have willfully ignored large sections of the book that frown about those same practices or offer alternatives.  

 

So rather than say it is "unIslamic", the contention should be that it is an incomplete and narrow view of Islam.  Then we aren't sticking our heads in the sand in the face of truth, but we're also offering a larger truth to defend Islam itself. 

[twinsnorth49]

 

Theocracies are dangerous.  That is a problem in many parts of the Muslim world - the educational processes steers towards devotion over knowledge.

ISIS ia a theocracy, or at least it's what it hopes to be.

 

Theocracies work better through ignorance than education.

[twinsnorth49]

 

 

Wood is right, ISIS is fundamentally Islamic and it's beliefs and practices come right out of the Quran.  But they have willfully ignored large sections of the book that frown about those same practices or offer alternatives.  

 

So rather than say it is "unIslamic", the contention should be that it is an incomplete and narrow view of Islam.  Then we aren't sticking our heads in the sand in the face of truth, but we're also offering a larger truth to defend Islam itself. 

No, I disagree with that, the point is, just because ISIS is  pulling beliefs and practices right out of the Qur'an,  does not make them "fundamentally Islamic". That's the myth, and it's the one they perpetrate because they know that the vast majority of the people they recruit are completely ignorant to scripture and what it actually means.

 

There is such a thing as right and wrong interpretation, they rely on people not knowing the difference.

[Willihammer]

Why are people so eager to weigh in on the finer points of Muslim theology? Islam is 90% a red herring in all of this and none of us is really qualified to address Islam anyway methinks.

 

From what I've been able to gather is, France and western Europe in general did a poor job assimilating these migrants - due to taking on too many at once, poor civic engineering, cultural stubbornness or whatever- and so an alienated home grown population got resentful and angry and attacked the dominant culture (aiming for the president). ISIS may have funded or supported the attackers and they seem more than happy to claim the spotlight the attacksk created, but it sounds to me like they were not the brainpower or the muscle behind any of it.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Why are people so eager to weigh in on the finer points of Muslim theology? Islam is 90% a red herring in all of this and none of us is really qualified to address Islam anyway methinks.

 

From what I've been able to gather is, France and western Europe in general did a poor job assimilating these migrants - due to taking on too many at once, poor civil engineering, cultural stubbornness or whatever- and so an alienated home grown population got resentful and angry and attacked the dominant culture (aiming for the president). ISIS may have funded or supported the attackers but it sounds to me like they were not the brainpower or the muscle behind any of it.

 

Because that is what is:

 

a: what ISIS wants us to talk about, and we are falling for it, and, I truly believe for many/most of ISIS, their religion is NOT a red herring at all in this.

b: what so many USains are terrified of

c: some aspects of some of our political parties are talking about and trying to scare us about

 

But yes, this is not just an ISIS thing. The French have been killing Algerians and others for years....

[twinsnorth49]

 

Why are people so eager to weigh in on the finer points of Muslim theology? Islam is 90% a red herring in all of this and none of us is really qualified to address Islam anyway methinks.

 

From what I've been able to gather is, France and western Europe in general did a poor job assimilating these migrants - due to taking on too many at once, poor civic engineering, cultural stubbornness or whatever- and so an alienated home grown population got resentful and angry and attacked the dominant culture (aiming for the president). ISIS may have funded or supported the attackers and they seem more than happy to claim the spotlight the attacksk created, but it sounds to me like they were not the brainpower or the muscle behind any of it.

Because I think it plays a larger role in the greater issue at hand, the same way you feel the failure of French and Western European Immigration policy does.

 

I think you're wrong, that's about it.

 

And nobody has even touched the finer points of Islamic theology.

[Willihammer]

 

Because I think it plays a larger role in the greater issue at hand, the same way you feel the failure of French and Western European Immigration policy does.

 

I think you're wrong, that's about it.

 

And nobody has even touched the finer points of Islamic theology.

You linked an article "The Phone Islam of ISIS" which attempts to claim that the religion is not all dependent on the interpretation but instead that there are "real" and "phony" interpretations. Again, I don't know why we even need to go down that road since a. none of us is qualified and b. it is 90% moot.

[Craig Arko]

Yet we seem to take great pleasure in arguing the point.

[Mike Sixel]

I'm trying to understand your argument about this....are you saying understanding the motivation of ISIS is not worth it, or that understanding that there are other views beside these isn't worth it, or what are you saying when you say it is moot?