Apologize to Bill Smith Thread

[Hrbowski]

 

The GM does not run the draft, the head scout does.

Yes, but the GM can override the scouts. I don't think that scouts get enough credit, though.

[ShouldaCouldaWoulda]

 

I will never ceased to be amazed by Twins fans capacity to invent criticism of Terry Ryan.  

 

The credit for the Sano signing probably belongs to people other than Bill Smith, and I imagine those same people were with the Twins both before Bill Smith was GM and after his tenure.   

 

There's reasonable criticism of Terry Ryan, his speculative non-signing of Sano, is not one of them.

I honestly like TR and think his overall body of work has been a net positive for the Twins. I just think the game has changed a lot and so has the business of the game, and what all goes into it. Hell, the game of baseball has changed great players like Mauer even. It happens, and maybe TR just isn't suited for a GM role in todays game. That doesn't mean he is bad, but maybe he's just not as good anymore. I don't know.

[Mike Sixel]

 

What's not a coincidence to me is how disconnected from context and facts we can get when we discuss this issue.

 

Let's at least argue some facts first. This may render it moot to blame or defend a guy who I can effectively argue is close to irrelevant in how all these signings went down.

 

Historically, the Twins ownership has set a separate budget (a rough one) each year for international signings, although this process changed with the new rules obviously. As is the Twins Way, they never felt like we as fans deserved to be privy to these conversations or these budget amounts. When Sano was signed, we can speculate, without really knowing, whether his expenditure fell outside of the established budget or not. But more importantly as it relates to the assertion of the thread, we have no idea what kind of conversations took place, who pushed to spend it, who didn't, and who wouldn't have. Any opinions being expressed about that are pure speculation. And understandably, it's going to be popular to speculate in such a way as to shed Ryan in a disfavorable way, right?

 

Howard Norsetter had ten times more to do with Kepler's signing than Smith. Trying to pin something on Ryan based on the signing of Polanco and Kepler, as convenient as it is if your goal is to add a demerit to Ryan's long list of them,  is a complete disconnect. If we're going to beat that drum, we first have to make a connection between the actual role of the GM and the signing itself.

 

 

I am trying to give Smith credit, but like I said, doing that doesn't work here.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I will never ceased to be amazed by Twins fans capacity to invent criticism of Terry Ryan.  

 

The credit for the Sano signing probably belongs to people other than Bill Smith, and I imagine those same people were with the Twins both before Bill Smith was GM and after his tenure.   

 

There's reasonable criticism of Terry Ryan, his speculative non-signing of Sano, is not one of them.

I doubt Ryan would have signed Sano.

 

I also don't care because Ryan wasn't GM when Sano became available.

 

Ryan has obviously changed his approach a bit, as evidenced by this year's signing of Javier.

[SockNet]

I think you're giving Smith too much credit for Sano. Maybe he spent a little more than TR would have but the Twins don't even sniff at Sano until the Pirates scout started a smear campaign against him and scared of the higher offers. That's what I got from Pelotero anyway.

 

[PseudoSABR]

 

I doubt Ryan would have signed Sano.

I just don't have a basis to doubt Ryan here.  Sano's talent was widely coveted, and I think the deal was probably brokered by a combination of an international scout and others in the Front Office.  I think TR would be swayed by his scouts and the opportunity to sign such a talent was unique to his experience.   

 

TR's penchant pre-Target Field for gaming service time, avoiding expensive free-agents, and not extending superstars in their thirties don't seem applicable.  I really wish the whole TR-is-the-cheapest-GM-ever! meme would just die, because I think it's pretty baseless at this point.    

[bird]

 

The GM does not run the draft, the head scout does.

 

This is true and important. Likewise, the GM does not run the international scouting and signing process. The GM manages all of this stuff. Five dozen people are employed in scouting and development. The scouts most responsible for Kepler, Sano, and Polanco, scouts who worked under Ryan long before Smith was inserted into the role, should probably get much of the credit.

[DaveW]

Ryan has one playoff series win in his 17 years as GM, has never made a real splash in free agency nor ever traded for a high reward type guy. Yes it's perfectly reasonable to assume he wouldn't have spent the Pohlads money on Sano.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I just don't have a basis to doubt Ryan here. Sano's talent was widely coveted, and I think the deal was probably brokered by a combination of an international scout and others in the Front Office. I think TR would be swayed by his scouts and the opportunity to sign such a talent was unique to his experience.

 

TR's penchant pre-Target Field for gaming service time, avoiding expensive free-agents, and not extending superstars in their thirties don't seem applicable. I really wish the whole TR-is-the-cheapest-GM-ever! meme would just die, because I think it's pretty baseless at this point.

FYI, TR didn't really game service time pre-Target Field, or ever.

 

I didn't think it was really up for debate that the Smith regime was more aggressive than the TR regimes, and not just in terms of budgets (the Delmon Young deal was pretty much budget neutral). I don't see why it is controversial to say maybe that extra aggressiveness put us in a better position to land a highly-sought elite international talent in a completely open and unrestricted market.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I just don't have a basis to doubt Ryan here.  Sano's talent was widely coveted, and I think the deal was probably brokered by a combination of an international scout and others in the Front Office.  I think TR would be swayed by his scouts and the opportunity to sign such a talent was unique to his experience.   

 

TR's penchant pre-Target Field for gaming service time, avoiding expensive free-agents, and not extending superstars in their thirties don't seem applicable.  I really wish the whole TR-is-the-cheapest-GM-ever! meme would just die, because I think it's pretty baseless at this point.    

No arguments here. Either way, it doesn't matter and is pure conjecture.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I much prefer the TR regime overall to the Smith regime, I pretty much hated the Smith regime, but I think it is fair to credit the latter when appropriate.

[bird]

 

I am trying to give Smith credit, but like I said, doing that doesn't work here.

 

 

Yes, and I like giving credit to Smith too. I just find that there's such a nebulous connection to fact and context when we discuss attribution and subsequent credit and discredit on this topic. Lots of commenters have credited Smith for things that can truly be attributed to him, including you and me.

[bird]

 

Ryan has one playoff series win in his 17 years as GM, has never made a real splash in free agency nor ever traded for a high reward type guy. Yes it's perfectly reasonable to assume he wouldn't have spent the Pohlads money on Sano.

 

And it's perfectly reasonable to think that assumption is faulty.

 

 

[JustinCB]

And to think the Pirates almost had him, to go with all the other Twins who go there and get great.

[DaveW]

And it's perfectly reasonable to think that assumption is faulty.

Why? Name the last time Ryan did anything aggressive, period?

[PseudoSABR]

 

 I don't see why it is controversial to say maybe that extra aggressiveness put us in a better position to land a highly-sought elite international talent in a completely open and unrestricted market.

It is fair to suggest that aggressiveness may have contributed to BS signing Sano; that said, it's also fair to suggest that Sano was such a special talent that it would have overcome TR's conservative tendency.  What rubs me the wrong way is that certitude that people have about something completely speculative. 

.

[DaveW]

It is fair to suggest that aggressiveness may have contributed to BS signing Sano; that said, it's also fair to suggest that Sano was such a special talent that it would have overcome TR's conservative tendency. What rubs me the wrong way is that certitude that people have about something completely speculative.

.

If this disaster of a bullpen wasn't enough to overcome Ryan's crippling conservative nature, I highly doubt a 16 year old who he would have to spend $3 million on would.

[Otto von Ballpark]

It is fair to suggest that aggressiveness may have contributed to BS signing Sano; that said, it's also fair to suggest that Sano was such a special talent that it would have overcome TR's conservative tendency. What rubs me the wrong way is that certitude that people have about something completely speculative.

.

TR has completely passed on plenty of special talents available in open market bidding. The only thing that seems to overcome his conservative nature is mandated MLB spending pools (increased willingness to spend more on innings eaters notwithstanding).

[bird]

 

Why? Name the last time Ryan did anything aggressive, period?

I'm afraid that this would not only be off topic but a fruitless exercise, one that gets a workout ad nauseum in about every third thread, my friend.

[bird]

 

And to think the Pirates almost had him, to go with all the other Twins who go there and get great.

 

 

I miss Garett Jones. We sure could use a DH type. 

[DaveW]

I'm afraid that this would not only be off topic but a fruitless exercise, one that gets a workout ad nauseum in about every third thread, my friend.

I'm not your friend.

 

So you are saying you don't have an example? And no it's not off topic btw

[TheLeviathan]

 

I just don't have a basis to doubt Ryan here.  Sano's talent was widely coveted, and I think the deal was probably brokered by a combination of an international scout and others in the Front Office.  I think TR would be swayed by his scouts and the opportunity to sign such a talent was unique to his experience.   

 

TR's penchant pre-Target Field for gaming service time, avoiding expensive free-agents, and not extending superstars in their thirties don't seem applicable.  I really wish the whole TR-is-the-cheapest-GM-ever! meme would just die, because I think it's pretty baseless at this point.    

 

Ryan has made changes, but the point is that Smith aggressively pursued Sano over and above what he was allotted.  What evidence is there that Ryan has done such a thing?  You can be aggressive within a budget, but that was never Ryan's MO.

 

It was nickel and diming in FA.  It was under-slot drafting.  It was under the radar IFA.  

 

You can stick your head in the sand and pretend until the cows come home, but there is PLENTY of "basis to doubt".  You not acknowledging it doesn't make it go away.

[TheLeviathan]

Ryan had a chance to be aggressive with a similar talent...did we all forget about Miggy?

 

And let's cut the nonsense about what specifically is or isn't in the control of the GM.  For better or worse they get all the credit and blame for things that happen under their watch.  Splitting hairs about that is beyond obnoxious.

[DaveW]

Ryan had a chance to be aggressive with a similar talent...did we all forget about Miggy?

 

And let's cut the nonsense about what specifically is or isn't in the control of the GM. For better or worse they get all the credit and blame for things that happen under their watch. Splitting hairs about that is beyond obnoxious.

This 100%

Also on a side note I am looking forward to a classic Pseudo vs Lev debate. (Honestly)

[TheLeviathan]

 

This 100%
Also on a side note I am looking forward to a classic Pseudo vs Lev debate. (Honestly)

 

Those are best left for the political threads where us weirdos lurk uninterrupted by the masses.

[bird]

 

Ryan had a chance to be aggressive with a similar talent...did we all forget about Miggy?

 

And let's cut the nonsense about what specifically is or isn't in the control of the GM.  For better or worse they get all the credit and blame for things that happen under their watch.  Splitting hairs about that is beyond obnoxious.

 

 

What you describe as "splitting hairs" involves material facts that you are certainly at liberty to be disdainful about, but please, let's not go where you just went. It's absolutely reasonable to think that Ryan may not have signed Sano. But it's not "beyond obnoxious" to present the possibility that he would have been almost irrelevant, or that Smith was, or even that he would also have signed him. 

[glunn]

Moderator note -- please be more respectful of other points of view.  Vigorous debate is fine, but some of these posts are too dismissive and have a flavor of squabbling.

[TheLeviathan]

 

What you describe as "splitting hairs" involves material facts that you are certainly at liberty to be disdainful about, but please, let's not go where you just went. It's absolutely reasonable to think that Ryan may not have signed Sano. But it's not "beyond obnoxious" to present the possibility that he would have been almost irrelevant, or that Smith was, or even that he would also have signed him. 

 

No, it's not material fact.  None of us are at those negotiating tables or part of the discussions where things happen.  Trying to credit a scout, or a scouting director, or find blame with someone else is completely missing the point.  It veers the discussion off the track to talking about things we don't know (and won't ever know) the particulars of.

 

Smith was the GM - what happened during that time (good or bad) is on him.  When Ryan is the GM - what happens (good or bad) is on him.  Invariably parsing that out about whose job was what is excuse making that misses the point.  

 

It's often said that your greatest strength is often your greatest weakness.  Ryan's greatest strength is staying calm, cool, collected, and not panicking in the process of building a team.  It's also his greatest weakness because it limits him in finding opportunities to be aggressive.  It happened with Miggy and, by all evidence, likely would've with Sano as well.

[DaveW]

Should be noted that Ryan never got the chance because HE stepped down from the GM role, right before the tough decisions re: Santana etc had to be made.

 

Smith was truely dealt a losing hand from day one, and unfortunately took a lot of heat for it. As I mentioned in post 2, it's because of Smith that the Twins future looks bright (a guy like Sano will do that)

[Richie the Rally Goat]

 

A couple thoughts on this.

 

-I still think 63 wins and an organization in bad shape was the most significant aspect of the firing.

 

-Dumping players and losing resulted in much less money for the Pohlads than spending money and winning would have. 

 

-Polanco and Kepler were not that big of outlays and they fell within the typical international budget at the time. Why would Ryan not spend that? He spent on international guys before and since, including spending more on Javier this period than any international signing in Twins history.

yup, and when an old team sucks, you need to get rid of the crappy old veterans. Yes I give Bill Smith credit for signing Sano where Ryan wouldn't... but can't we have a GM/organization that can Draft, Develop, Sign AND Trade for quality major and minor leaguers?