To trade or not to trade Plouffe this offseason.

[tobi0040]

 

While true in theory, I think there would have to be a premium towards acquiring pieces that help immediately as the Twins should absolutely be thinking division title next year.

Another thought on this (not necessarily from you specifically) is the idea that the Twins have to trade Plouffe at the point they get the maximum in return, peak value. No they don't. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Twins capturing most of that excess value themselves as they try to win.

 

That is a good point and the Twins should be looking at Plouffe's value here relative to what we can get for him.

 

 

 

 

[RJM96]

Names anybody?

[Einstein1]

Mauer is the elephant in the room.  He's not a starting caliber corner infielder.  I don't care how much money he's making, he should not be starting, he should be coming off the bench.  Keep Plouffe, play him and Sano at the corners.  

[Silky]

Maybe I overlooked this point already being mentioned, but it seems those arguing for trading Plouffe are neglecting to factor in his value besides the "numbers". Plouffe is an important clubhouse leader. How soon we forget what occurs when you lose guys like Cuddyer & Hunter.  Plouffe may not be to that level, and I understand we brought Hunter in to help create better team chemistry/winning spirit, but we need to keep those who are the glue to what holds everything together. We're on the cusp of greatness - Plouffe has an important role to play for at least 1-2 more years before passing along the torch.

 

 

[Silky]

 

Mauer is the elephant in the room.  He's not a starting caliber corner infielder.  I don't care how much money he's making, he should not be starting, he should be coming off the bench.  Keep Plouffe, play him and Sano at the corners.

Mauer's numbers when people are in scoring position is very encouraging. If his decline is partly/mainly attributed to concussion symptoms, it is reasonable to believe another year removed from this damaging brain injury will lead to more of the Mauer of old than present. I'm hopeful Mauer steep decline will at least be partly if not completely reversed.

 

I think we retain Plouffe because he could be our 3rd basemen for years (Sano may be better suited to play 1st/DH).  

[jorgenswest]

No reason to shop Plouffe. He has value to this team the next two years. At some point need to keep the value rather than trade for future value.

 

They should listen to offers for any player, but they don't have to put trading Plouffe on the to do list for this winter. Nor do they need to extend him.

[Jham]

I would guess that even with Sano's arrival, Plouffe still probably has more value for this team than for any other.  I highly doubt any team will over-pay to get him.  And I don't think the Twins should take anything less than an over-pay to deal him.  We should be gunning for pennants next season.  There is little chance, in my mind, that a team will give up anyone who can get us closer to that goal than Plouffe would.  I'm always open to offers, but I'm shopping Rosario over Plouffe.  Every organization has 3rd base prospects with Plouffe upside.  Just in this thread, we've had people suggest Travis Harrison, Brian Dozier, Sano, and I'll throw Eddie Rosario into that conversation as guys who might be able to step in and produce comparably.  So why would another team trade much for a player who people view as so easily replaced from within?  

[darin617]

No don't trade him. If for some reason TR does trade him he will make the mistake of trying to fill a position with the prospect as in a catcher or SS prospect. If you trade get the best you can get overall.

The Twins should do what the Cubs did in the draft in 2014 and selected Kyle Schwarber with the 4th overall pick. He was rated way later if even a 1st round pick but they had a need and overpaid at the time but I am sure they are happy now.

[TheLeviathan]

 

No reason to shop Plouffe. He has value to this team the next two years. At some point need to keep the value rather than trade for future value.

 

Sometimes you can trade value where you have an excess for places you don't.  That's the premise here, not trading something of value for nothing.

[Old Twins Cap]

First time all year that Plouffe looked ovematched at third.  Sox hit balls to the right of him, to the left of him, bunted on him, and then, inexplicably, when Boyer tried to do a stupid, casual pickoff toss to third (first time I've seen that kind of move -- ever), Plouffe couldn't handle it and another run scored.

 

He wrapped up his futility by dropping Mauer's cutoff throw that would have nailed a runner going to third.

 

In all, Plouffe, for the first time, looked slow, tired, listless and ineffectual on defense.  And, he does lead the Majors in GIDPs.

 

This is a night after his two homers led the way over the Sox.  Not complaining really, but it's not like the Twins could not survive without him.

 

Pair him with Rosario and get us a real MLB catcher.

[RJM96]

First time all year that Plouffe looked ovematched at third. Sox hit balls to the right of him, to the left of him, bunted on him, and then, inexplicably, when Boyer tried to do a stupid, casual pickoff toss to third (first time I've seen that kind of move -- ever), Plouffe couldn't handle it and another run scored.

 

He wrapped up his futility by dropping Mauer's cutoff throw that would have nailed a runner going to third.

 

In all, Plouffe, for the first time, looked slow, tired, listless and ineffectual on defense. And, he does lead the Majors in GIDPs.

 

This is a night after his two homers led the way over the Sox. Not complaining really, but it's not like the Twins could not survive without him.

 

Pair him with Rosario and get us a real MLB catcher.

I was at the game, miserably sat right behind third base. I could not agree with you more. It was a ridiculously frustrating game to watch, especially given that we were surrounded by rowdy White Sox fans.

[Kwak]

So, do we remove Plouffe from Gold Glove consideration--after the tongue he received for hitting 2 HRs Friday?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Plouffe is a good third baseman. Every year he has a couple games like that. If the ball is hit into Plouffe's little bubble of space, he's pretty reliable nowadays. But I think I've seen Sano dive for more balls at third this year than Plouffe. Plouffe also hits into too many double plays for someone of average power. But how finished is Sano as a reliable fielder?

 

Here's how I see it, which is greater:

 

3B Plouffe + DH Sano

 

Or

 

3B Sano + DH Arcia/platoon + new players from Plouffe trade

[Teddy]

I've come to really like Plouffe, but I wouldn't mind seeing him traded, but I wouldn't trade him for SP. We've got too many starters now with the FA acquisitions the past two years. C and SS are big holes, but those are some of the toughest to fill, and I don't think Plouffe alone would net a top prospect at either position.

[Major League Ready]

Mauer is the elephant in the room.  He's not a starting caliber corner infielder.  I don't care how much money he's making, he should not be starting, he should be coming off the bench.  Keep Plouffe, play him and Sano at the corners.  

I am not a Maurer supporter but it’s not as simple as putting him on the bench.  For starters, anyone that has ever managed a 9 figure P&L would throw you out of the room if you suggested any plan that does not entail giving your $23M a year investment every opportunity to perform.  I would like that rope to be pretty short but I don't have to pay him $69M to sit on the best the next 3 years.  In addition ....   

1. Now you have $23M + Plouffe in Arb years 1,2, & 3 so you have $33M/yr by his 3rd arbitration year wrapped up in first base.  That is absurd

2. Kennys Vargas will likely outperform Pouffe offensively as early as next year and he has actually looked pretty decent defensively.  It would make way more sense financially than to keep Plouffe and Vargas could be exactly what we need to hit behind Sano.

3. Plouffe is only marginally better offensively than Mauer this year and Mauer’s career numbers are much better.  It would not be a big surprise if he outperformed Plouffe offensively next year.

4. The casual fans would not be thrilled if Maurer was treated this way.  This is a business and you don’t p%$$ off you customers if there is a reasonable alternative.

5. Plouffe should bring a decent return.  I would be nice if it is immediate but trade for the best return.  The assets can be used to trade for something that is valuable in the near future.  Managing assets based on how quickly they return versus how much they return is patently incompetent.  Billy Bean’s mastery of this concept has allowed him to field contenders with the smallest revenue stream in the league.

[ashbury]

Sometimes you can trade value where you have an excess for places you don't.  That's the premise here, not trading something of value for nothing.

Yes, but it's that premise of there being an excess which isn't quite as clear as, say, the case of Mauer replacing AJ which gets bandied about. Mauer was clearly ready for the show, both with the bat and the glove. Here, Sano's bat clearly plays but his glove remains a giant question mark.

 

Do we have an excess at third, or not? I'm not certain, and it's possible the Twins FO isn't certain either.

 

Also playing into the discussion is that when trading AJ, it covered a defensive position of need for any number of teams. Third base is less a high-demand position, probably reducing the return that can be asked in trade. This further clouds the question of whether it makes sense to trade Plouffe, if the risk of leaving a gaping hole at third remains and the return won't be (say) a MLB ready young starting pitcher or a stud AA hitting prospect.

[sane]

 

"when trading AJ, it covered a defensive position of need for any number of teams. Third base is less a high-demand position, probably reducing the return that can be asked in trade"

 

So when we trade Plouffe, we probably won't receive Nathan, Liriano and Bonser.

We could accept less.

[ashbury]

"when trading AJ, it covered a defensive position of need for any number of teams. Third base is less a high-demand position, probably reducing the return that can be asked in trade"

 

So when we trade Plouffe, we probably won't receive Nathan, Liriano and Bonser.

We could accept less.

I'm not trying to set the same standard for a return. I'm saying that if the return will likely be lesser, it reduces the incentive to trade if there is much risk that a defensive hole will be opened.

 

My bottom line, as usual, is to rely on fundamental scouting by people more capable than me (my view is that he looks capable or better - eventually - but currently terribly rough on certain plays we've come to expect of Plouffe), to determine if Sano projects to be a third-baseman we can rely on. I'm on the fence as to whether to trade Plouffe, lacking that.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Yes, but it's that premise of there being an excess which isn't quite as clear as, say, the case of Mauer replacing AJ which gets bandied about. Mauer was clearly ready for the show, both with the bat and the glove. Here, Sano's bat clearly plays but his glove remains a giant question mark.

 

Do we have an excess at third, or not? I'm not certain, and it's possible the Twins FO isn't certain either.

 

Also playing into the discussion is that when trading AJ, it covered a defensive position of need for any number of teams. Third base is less a high-demand position, probably reducing the return that can be asked in trade. This further clouds the question of whether it makes sense to trade Plouffe, if the risk of leaving a gaping hole at third remains and the return won't be (say) a MLB ready young starting pitcher or a stud AA hitting prospect.

 

Those are all good things to consider, the problem in this scenario is we have less time to make that decision.  Plouffe's trade value is significantly higher this offseason than it likely will be again.

 

I think, given that and the choices in front of us, dealing him is the only sensible thing to pursue.  (But we don't have to feel forced)

[sane]

 

I'm not trying to set the same standard for a return.

I know.

As usual, I'm just going for the laugh.