Hunter on Joe West

[SwainZag]

 

On Hunter, when was he last on a BAD team? I really think he could struggle emotionally on this roster.

 

Torii is 39 and has been a big leaguer for almost 20 years.  I think he knew what he was getting signing with a team who had lost 90+ their last 4 seasons.  I'm not worried about stuggling with losing.

 

I don't mind what Torii said after the game.  Anytime you call out an umpire you will get fined, no problem with him getting fined, and he knew that when he made comments.  Anyone looking further into his comments for personal attacks, all I can say is really?  

[jimmer]

 

 Anyone looking further into his comments for personal attacks, all I can say is really?  

So you're saying it's not a personal attack on an umpire to suggest the reason he supposedly didn't do his job is because he had reservations to a restaurant or a concert? The concert to play part is SPECIFICALLY about West cause many baseball fans know he does the country music thing.  Those comments were specific to West. So yeah, they were personal. Don't need to look further, they are right there.

 

Unless I'm misreading what you're saying there.

[twinscowboysbulls]

Listen, normally I would say it's a no-no to call out an umpire in a game where it probably didn't matter. However, with the Twins recent struggles, I'm okay with a little fire early in the year from a savvy veteran who is supposed to be leading this team. 

 

Now some of you will say that behavior like that will lead the team to be out of control, but I don't believe that to be true. It may instead show the young players and older guys who have lost their way, that it is going to be different this year. Losing will not be tolerated.

[Riverbrian]

The Call Right or Wrong doesn't matter to me. Umps making occasional mistakes is baked into the process. It happens. 

 

I also don't care if Hunter gets fined or not. He's making pretty good coin... He will still be able to feed his family. 

 

In my opinion... I like the attitude that Hunter displayed. I know some disagree with me on this... Professionalism and all that... But I like the attitude and the Twins haven't displayed this type of attitude since... 

 

Well... Since Torii Hunter many years ago. 

 

Play the game hard and playing the game hard sometimes means that you play it hard with the Umps at times. 

 

Joe West is a pro... He'll get over it. 

 

 

[Mike Sixel]

I do appreciate passion.....there may be other ways to say it, but I have no real issue with it. Just not how I'd do it, even with passion.

[SwainZag]

 

So you're saying it's not a personal attack on an umpire to suggest the reason he supposedly didn't do his job is because he had reservations to a restaurant or a concert? The concert to play part is SPECIFICALLY about West cause many baseball fans know he does the country music thing.  Those comments were specific to West. So yeah, they were personal. Don't need to look further, they are right there.

 

Unless I'm misreading what you're saying there.

 

From what I see, West has 2 country music albums out.  As far as a dinner reservation is concerned, all the people I know, including those skinny people generally eat dinner.  Is it so far fetched to think he might be playing a concert or eating a meal?  

[Hrbowski]

 

And believing in traditional marriage is one thing, but publically supporting a governal candidate (by doing a commercial) because he wants to suppress the rights of people that believe differently and want to have a same sex marriage is another. Using your celebrity as a baseball player to do it is yet another. Oh, and it wasn't the first time he came out and showed his issues with homosexuality. A couple years ago,  when asked whether or not he'd feel comfortable with homosexuals in the locker room he said: 'For me, as a Christian…I will be uncomfortable because in all my teachings and all my learning, biblically, it's not right. It will be difficult and uncomfortable.'

 

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/dec/29/sports/la-sp-sports-homophobia-20121230

So we have come to the time where we can't speak the truth? And I believe just as many people hate Hunter because he is conservative than there are people willing to overlook his offenses. Oh, and by the way, we have a right to publicly endorse politicians, and if there was a player who supported non-traditional marriage and he signed in Texas, do you think a reporter would ask him about it? I doubt it, they are much more hospitable down there.

[jimmer]

 

So we have come to the time where we can't speak the truth? And I believe just as many people hate Hunter because he is conservative than there are people willing to overlook his offenses. Oh, and by the way, we have a right to publicly endorse politicians, and if there was a player who supported non-traditional marriage and he signed in Texas, do you think a reporter would ask him about it? I doubt it, they are much more hospitable down there.

I already explained why it was perfectly reasonable to ask Hunter about it in the news conference. If you want to continue this discussion best if by PM and not here.  We were told to stay on topic already by a moderator.

[Hrbowski]

 

I already explained why it was perfectly reasonable to ask Hunter about it in the news conference. If you want to continue this discussion best if by PM and not here.  We were told to stay on topic already by a moderator.

OK.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

The Tiger fans also pointed out that West had asked for help on the previous pitch (a ball) where it looked like Hunter offered more.

Doesn't that make it look worse for Hunter?  I mean, how many borderline check swings does he expect to make and get the preferred outcome?  (Not to mention falling behind 0-2 to begin with...)

 

Hunter (and the Twins) gave himself no margin for error in the situation, at all.  I have little sympathy for teams/players who do that and then see a borderline call go against them.

[Guest]

 

We don't publicly know what happens with their evaluations and likely will never know. But there are evaluations done, just like any other job, and they do have a union and fall under their own CBA.

Fair enough, even though we have data about umpire performance, we really don't expect to know publicly about their evaluations.  But, there is a problem if the union and its CBA serves to keep underperforming umpires at the MLB level while excellent minor league umpires cannot break through.  (I acknowledge that I don't know whether those conditions exist.)  

 

Ironically, though, you could say the opposite about the players' union and its CBA. Kris Bryant situation has the players' union complaining about incentives to keep MLB-ready players in the minors too long.

[jimmer]

 

Fair enough, even though we have data about umpire performance, we really don't expect to know publicly about their evaluations.  But, there is a problem if the union and its CBA serves to keep underperforming umpires at the MLB level while excellent minor league umpires cannot break through.  (I acknowledge that I don't know whether those conditions exist.)  

 

Ironically, though, you could say the opposite about the players' union and its CBA. Kris Bryant situation has the players' union complaining about incentives to keep MLB-ready players in the minors too long.

The funniest part is that Bryant isn't part of the players union.  So when they are pushing for him (and players somewhat comparable) to be able to be on the major league squad, they are actively hurting an actual member of their union.

[Guest]

 

Doesn't that make it look worse for Hunter?  I mean, how many borderline check swings does he expect to make and get the preferred outcome?

I don't think it does.  The statement was that Joe West checked on a previous check swing that was a closer call.  If anything, it may tend to indicate that Joe West questioned his own decision to ask for help on the prior check swing, and this was a deliberate make-up call.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

The funniest part is that Bryant isn't part of the players union.  So when they are pushing for him (and players somewhat comparable) to be able to be on the major league squad, they are actively hurting an actual member of their union.

I won't derail this thread, but you can see my comments here on that topic:

 

http://twinsdaily.com/topic/17438-bryant-sent-to-minors/page-4?do=findComment&comment=318139

[jimmer]

 

I won't derail this thread, but you can see my comments here on that topic:

 

http://twinsdaily.com/topic/17438-bryant-sent-to-minors/page-4?do=findComment&comment=318139

I saw that.  It's where I learned that :-)

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I don't think it does.  The statement was that Joe West checked on a previous check swing that was a closer call.  If anything, it may tend to indicate that Joe West questioned his own decision to ask for help on the prior check swing, and this was a deliberate make-up call.

Torii Hunter fell behind 0-2 in the count.  Then he at least partially offered to swing at the next two pitches.  Barring an Eric Gregg style call, it should surprise no one, including Hunter, that he was called on strikes by that point.

 

Part of the skill of baseball, or any sport, is not putting yourself in razor-thin margin for error situations like that.  Not falling behind 0-2, keeping the bat on your shoulder for balls, etc.  Hunter failed in that plate appearance by multiple criteria, plain and simple.  Expecting repeated favorable judgement calls is never a realistic expectation, no matter how good the ump.

[gunnarthor]

 

Doesn't that make it look worse for Hunter?  I mean, how many borderline check swings does he expect to make and get the preferred outcome?  (Not to mention falling behind 0-2 to begin with...)

 

 

Maybe we're looking at it different but if, on the last pitch, West said "oh, he didn't go after all" and then Hunter went less this time, then, no, I think the lesson would be on the umpire, not the player.  

 

[Guest]

 

Torii Hunter fell behind 0-2 in the count.  Then he at least partially offered to swing at the next two pitches.  Barring an Eric Gregg style call, it should surprise no one, including Hunter, that he was called on strikes by that point.

 

Part of the skill of baseball, or any sport, is not putting yourself in razor-thin margin for error situations like that.  Not falling behind 0-2, keeping the bat on your shoulder for balls, etc.  Hunter failed in that plate appearance by multiple criteria, plain and simple.  Expecting repeated favorable judgement calls is never a realistic expectation, no matter how good the ump.

Similarly, part of the skill in officiating in any sport is not letting your desire for a different past outcome affect your judgment on the next call.  A batter is not limited in the number of check swings he makes, and the umpire should not be aggregating the distance of check swings from previous offerings.  Torii should not have to factor just how he got himself into the hole in determining whether - and how far - he may check his next swing.

[gil4]

 

 

I do appreciate passion.....there may be other ways to say it, but I have no real issue with it. Just not how I'd do it, even with passion.

 

I agree.  Hopefully it lights a fire (although I think the big issue was facing Price, not the lack of fire.) As long as Torii isn't surprised by the fine, I have no issue either.  He was upset by the call, he lashed out, he'll get fined and life will go on.  As someone already said, he will still be able to feed the family.  He probably sees the fine as a worthwhile investment.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Maybe we're looking at it different but if, on the last pitch, West said "oh, he didn't go after all" and then Hunter went less this time, then, no, I think the lesson would be on the umpire, not the player.  

That's assuming an unfair level of perfection/precision on the umpire, though.  It isn't unreasonable, given the natural constraints in place (speed, vantage point, etc.), that in real-time West saw the second swing as greater, or meeting some additional criteria, as compared to the first.

 

Offering the bat at two-strike pitches is playing with fire, and has been since time immemorial.  It's a skill to avoid doing that, and to avoid those situations.  Hunter getting burned after his second such offering does not seem like an unreasonable outcome to me, regardless of how you want to dissect the performance of West.

 

How much validity does a football team's complaints carry, when they allow a close touchdown on second-and-goal from the 1, after a similar play resulted in no touchdown on first-and-goal from the 1, after they allowed the other team to reach first-and-goal on the 1 in the first place (we'll presume without the aid of a bad call)?

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Similarly, part of the skill in officiating in any sport is not letting your desire for a different past outcome affect your judgment on the next call.  A batter is not limited in the number of check swings he makes, and the umpire should not be aggregating the distance of check swings from previous offerings.  Torii should not have to factor just how he got himself into the hole in determining whether - and how far - he may check his next swing.

Obviously.  I am NOT suggesting that West should be allowed to do that.

 

But Hunter was relying on multiple close judgement calls to go his way to stay alive.  It's an unreasonable expectation.  It's akin to a pitcher expecting the exact same favorable judgement call on every similar borderline pitch.

 

It doesn't take ineffectiveness or malfeasance from the umpire to wind up with an occasional unfavorable outcome on such calls.  (Torii's probably not alone in failing to see that, though -- I would expect most pro athletes would similarly mis-apportion the blame for that outcome, although obviously not all would react like Torii, particularly post game).

[gunnarthor]

 

That's assuming an unfair level of perfection/precision on the umpire, though.  It isn't unreasonable, given the natural constraints in place (speed, vantage point, etc.), that in real-time West saw the second swing as greater, or meeting some additional criteria, as compared to the first.

 

Offering the bat at two-strike pitches is playing with fire, and has been since time immemorial.  It's a skill to avoid doing that, and to avoid those situations.  Hunter getting burned after his second such offering does not seem like an unreasonable outcome to me, regardless of how you want to dissect the performance of West.

 

How much validity does a football team's complaints carry, when they allow a close touchdown on second-and-goal from the 1, after a similar play resulted in no touchdown on first-and-goal from the 1, after they allowed the other team to reach first-and-goal on the 1 in the first place (we'll presume without the aid of a bad call)?

These aren't really comparable things, though.  On play A, Torii was right and checked his swing in time.  On play B, Torii was right and checked his swing in time.  West made the mistake.  Hitters do have to protect the plate in those circumstances but no one is suggesting that the pitch itself was a strike, which I think would have been a different issue.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

These aren't really comparable things, though.  On play A, Torii was right and checked his swing in time.  On play B, Torii was right and checked his swing in time.  West made the mistake.  Hitters do have to protect the plate in those circumstances but no one is suggesting that the pitch itself was a strike, which I think would have been a different issue.

I hope I didn't come across as suggesting the pitch was worthy of being a called strike.

 

The degree of West's mistake is small.  But Hunter gave him multiple chances to make such a mistake.  And Hunter made each of those chances extra significant by falling into an 0-2 hole to begin with (and the team made them significant by being down 4 runs with 2 outs in the 9th).

 

Basically, the degree of Hunter's criticism of West doesn't match the degree of West's mistake -- it's greatly inflated by the actions of Hunter.  Which isn't unusual among pro athletes (or people in general, I suppose), but it doesn't really make me more sympathetic to such heightened levels of criticism.