Berardino: "No contact" between Twins & Maddon

[big dog]

Generally, since an agent represents multiple people and is a professional, he acts professionally and treats every club with equal respect, and in that regard, is more than willing to entertain the prospect of an interview... and as I've stated before- it's still a win-win, even if a team isn't first on your list, meeting with said team can only help your leverage with other teams.

That's exactly what I meant.  If a reporter asks if Maddon would like to hear from the Twins, of course the agent is going to say they would welcome a call, whether he has any interest or not.  Even, perhaps especially, if they already had a soft deal with the Cubs and didn't want to make it look as if it were prearranged.

[Linus]

Reusse's article is lazy.  Of course Maddon's record was better when he had good pitching.  I'm betting that is true for every manager.

 

The question then becomes:  did Maddon and his sfaff contribute to the quality of that pitching?

Um...that's kind of the point.  The quality of the players is a lot more important to manager's win - loss records than the other way around.  I seem to remember the Rays losing a lot, before their minor league system starting producing a bounty of quality players, especially pitching.

 

I would have been perfectly fine with Maddon as a manager, or not.  What I care about is adding another good starter because that is going to matter a whole lot more in the short and long run.

[Mike Sixel]

Is anyone arguing that players don't matter? I don't think anyone is arguing that. I think people are suggesting that Maddon is highly regarded, the Twins have an opening, and that they should interview him seriously for the position. I don't think anyone is saying Maddon can lead any team to any success if the players are awful. 

 

As chief points out, a team should be able to pursue both players and managerial staff....they are not one or the other.

[JB_Iowa]

Um...that's kind of the point. 

 

My point is that Reusse's blog was pretty much useless.

 

I'm all for adding more pitching.  And I'm fine with Lovullo being the next manager...just not Molitor.

[Otto von Ballpark]

While I would have really liked the hiring of Maddon and was not happy they didn't at least talk to him, I lost a lot of respect for him and the Cubs front office for how this turned out if true.  This isn't a very classy way to treat the current manager by the Cubs or Maddon.

First of all, it feels like a lot of the "Maddon officially going to the Cubs" talk is still speculative.  It's not at all clear that he's been hired behind anyone's back yet.

 

Second of all, how do we know that Renteria hasn't been consulted about the process?  Absent a report specifically saying that he hasn't been, I am going to assume the Cubs were up-front with Renteria here.

[Otto von Ballpark]

1) Not saying Maddon is being dishonest, but still find it odd he didn't know ahead of time about the out in his contract. I also find it puzzling just how fast this whole Cubs situation has come to pass. I'm not accusing anyone of tampering, but it sure sounds like some sort of back room conversations between someone.

Maddon's agent is the one who negotiated the details of the contract, including the opt-out.  When their GM/VP or whatever left for the Dodgers, the agent informed Maddon, who, with just one year remaining on his contract, naturally used it as leverage to try to get an extension on favorable terms.  Maddon and the Rays couldn't agree on those terms, he opted out, and as befits the reputation he built in Tampa, his services were immediately sought be other teams (or other team's fans ).

 

Given the facts we know, it's actually quite simple and does not at all suggest tampering, falling out, etc.

 

 

 

4) Isn't it possible the Twins and Maddon's camp already knew it wasn't a match from the begining from previous knowledge?

That's certainly plausible, but most of the debate here centers on "why?"  If it's at all due to money, that's another confirmation of the Twins reputation, and not a flattering or productive one from an on-field results standpoint -- free agents (managers or players) should always be willing to at least consider joining your organization.

[jay]

 free agents (managers or players) should always be willing to at least consider joining your organization.

 

Are you saying they don't? 

 

Maddon, the source added, “would have been pleasantly surprised” to hear from the Twins but ideally is looking for a team that’s closer to contention.

[tobi0040]

That's certainly plausible, but most of the debate here centers on "why?"  If it's at all due to money, that's another confirmation of the Twins reputation, and not a flattering or productive one from an on-field results standpoint -- free agents (managers or players) should always be willing to at least consider joining your organization.

 

Maybe this is part of the reason?

 

http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2014/10/unbelievable_stat_about_minnesota_twins_sad_pitching_goes_viral.php

[TheLeviathan]

Maybe this is part of the reason?

 

http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2014/10/unbelievable_stat_about_minnesota_twins_sad_pitching_goes_viral.php

 

Holy schnikes.....

[Otto von Ballpark]

Are you saying they don't? 

I'm not saying anything.  I was responding to a post suggesting that the Twins and/or Maddon already knew it wasn't a good match.

[jokin]

Read my post again. I said the managerial change was needed.

 

I didn't say don't fix the hole in the roof.  Yes, fix it.  But let's not pretend that fixing the hole in the roof will magically cause all of the other problems to go away.

 

Who has "pretended" anything like that?  Who?

[jokin]

That's exactly what I meant.  If a reporter asks if Maddon would like to hear from the Twins, of course the agent is going to say they would welcome a call, whether he has any interest or not.  Even, perhaps especially, if they already had a soft deal with the Cubs and didn't want to make it look as if it were prearranged.

 

Then I don't understand why you were disagreeing with me.

[big dog]

Then I don't understand why you were disagreeing with me.

Not disagreeing at all, just saying that it doesn't mean anything.  His agent saying they would welcome a call conveys exactly zero news about Maddon's interest in the Twins.  That's all I meant.

 

The sports talk here in Chicago is virtually all Maddon right now.  One of the topics was "if the Cubs win the Series, will Maddon replace Ditka in the hearts of Chicagoans?"  Not that they are jumping the gun or anything.

[bird]

I'm sorry, but there is 15-20 years of evidence the team is "cheap".  The onus to change that chorus is on the Twins.  And, to their credit, they began that process last offseason, but they have a long way to go to shrug that label.  

I can't help myself from agreeing with this, but I absolutely detest the use of the word "cheap", because I think it way oversimplifies the organization's historic point of view and approach, like the approach or not.

 

At times I wish they were more secretive, not less, frankly. There's an article in the Detroit Free Press by Henning that I saw referenced on Twitter yesterday about the absolute mess Dombrowski is in regarding their intractable obligations. Pressed on the issue, Dombrowski is quoted as saying "we don't discuss payroll". And in Cleveland, fans are up in arms about their $75M payroll budget. Now watch the KC fireworks begin. No team spends enough to satisfy their fans it seems. Detroit spent $179M and look what the fans got? If they had just spent a little more...

 

My point is, we can get all whipped up about missing out on Maddon, and we'll probably never have even an inkling of all the conversations among league GM's, agents , etc behind the scenes, nuances that would paint the accurate picture as to why the Twins may have acted as they did, whatever actions those were. But to describe the reason for Maddon going elsewhere as simply and strictly a function of the Twins being perceived as cheap rings hollow. Maybe they think Maddon has become an egotistical blowhard and isn't a better option than any of a dozen other choices, who knows.

 

But, hey, they brought the cheap label on themselves by being stupid and sloppy with their communication about these things and by oftentimes being...frugal...without articulating why their perception of value doesn't match the fans'.

[Riverbrian]

All I can do is go back to hoping that the new Manager is... Maddon Like.

 

That's how I felt immediately after Gardy was let go and how I felt until the moment that Maddon opted out of his deal to tempt me into full Joe Maddon finger crossing.

 

If we get a guy who is Maddon like. It'll be Ok.

 

Just show me... We have a guy who has the lineup creativity to utilize all 25 players and not rot players on the bench.

 

Just show me... We have a guy who will play the hot hand instead of the guy who is supposed to have the hotter hand.

 

Just show me... We have a guy that kills the idea of a Getaway Day lineup. Crowding all the bench players into the lineup in one day instead of scattering these rests and substitution throughout the yea... Month... Week... or... based on matchups.

 

Just show me stuff like that and I'll get past Maddon going to the Cubs.

[tobi0040]

I can't help myself from agreeing with this, but I absolutely detest the use of the word "cheap", because I think it way oversimplifies the organization's historic point of view and approach, like the approach or not.

 

At times I wish they were more secretive, not less, frankly. There's an article in the Detroit Free Press by Henning that I saw referenced on Twitter yesterday about the absolute mess Dombrowski is in regarding their intractable obligations. Pressed on the issue, Dombrowski is quoted as saying "we don't discuss payroll". And in Cleveland, fans are up in arms about their $75M payroll budget. Now watch the KC fireworks begin. No team spends enough to satisfy their fans it seems. Detroit spent $179M and look what the fans got? If they had just spent a little more...

 

My point is, we can get all whipped up about missing out on Maddon, and we'll probably never have even an inkling of all the conversations among league GM's, agents , etc behind the scenes, nuances that would paint the accurate picture as to why the Twins may have acted as they did, whatever actions those were. But to describe the reason for Maddon going elsewhere as simply and strictly a function of the Twins being perceived as cheap rings hollow. Maybe they think Maddon has become an egotistical blowhard and isn't a better option than any of a dozen other choices, who knows.

 

But, hey, they brought the cheap label on themselves by being stupid and sloppy with their communication about these things and by oftentimes being...frugal...without articulating why their perception of value doesn't match the fans'.

 

I think a lot of what you say here is true.  They brought it on themselves.  But I can't let the Twins off the hook on the Maddon front, because I have a really, really hard time believing they thought he was not at least on par from a candidate perspective as Doug, Molitor, and Luvollo.  It clearly was not about talent.

 

I personally don't know if I buy the La Velle story about us reaching out.  He is rarely, if ever accurate or has breaking news.  It seems more likely that the Twins use him to leak things they want leaked.  We do know that if we did reach out, it took us several days to do so.  It was a long shot that Maddon would come here either way, but people have ego's and if our actions from day 1 were to pursue him aggressively then who knows.

 

Maddon was apparently interested in a team that was closer to contention than we are.  Well the Cubs have a very similar farm system than we do and they won exactly 3 more games this year than we did.  Come to think of it, our system has more high end pitchers than theirs does.  But a belief exists with Maddon that they will be more active on the free agent front and have the willingness to spend. 

[ashbury]

That's how I felt immediately after Gardy was let go and how I felt until the moment that Maddon opted out of his deal to tempt me into full Joe Maddon finger crossing.

.

 

"You went full Maddon, man. Never go full Maddon."

[one_eyed_jack]

Look I'd love it if the Twins hired Maddon, but I'm not going to get worked up over it if they don't as long as they hire someone competent.

 

I'm just not convinced that managers necessarily make a huge difference in terms of wins and losses.  There are situations where they do, but it's more often for the worse, for example where you have a good team that quits on a manager they don't like, then goes back to playing hard for his replacement.  But I don't think this is one of them. 

 

But hey, maybe I'm wrong, I'm open to being convinced otherwise, so I'm curious as to thoughts on this:

 

How many wins would hiring Maddon be good for?  What would you expect the difference in record to be between the 2015 Twins managed by Maddon as compared to the 2015 Twins managed by Molitor?

 

If we'd had Maddon the last 4 years, would our record have been dramatically better?

[DaveW]

I'm guessing the twins knew Maddon had zero interest. Just because they didn't speak directly to him doesn't mean they didn't know he had no desire to come to the Twins. Also we much as I like him I don't think it was in the twins best interests to get into a bidding war with the cubs and possibly dodgers. I hate the cubs, but if he leads them to a World Series he is probably the 2nd most revered chicago sports team related person besides Phil Jackson.

[The Wise One]

How many people are going to insist the Twins could have signed Maddon if they only offered more money than the Cubs?

In answer to the question did Maddon or his staff make the pitchers better, Garza improved as a Cub and Shilds certainly did not drop off when he went to the Royals. Counter with Kazmir imploded with the Angels but eventually did bounce back. Sorry I didn't look up ever mediocre reliever who got less or more mediocre to use as an example.

[Linus]

Look I'd love it if the Twins hired Maddon, but I'm not going to get worked up over it if they don't as long as they hire someone competent.

 

I'm just not convinced that managers necessarily make a huge difference in terms of wins and losses.  There are situations where they do, but it's more often for the worse, for example where you have a good team that quits on a manager they don't like, then goes back to playing hard for his replacement.  But I don't think this is one of them. 

 

But hey, maybe I'm wrong, I'm open to being convinced otherwise, so I'm curious as to thoughts on this:

 

How many wins would hiring Maddon be good for?  What would you expect the difference in record to be between the 2015 Twins managed by Maddon as compared to the 2015 Twins managed by Molitor?

 

If we'd had Maddon the last 4 years, would our record have been dramatically better?

Close to zero.  When Gardy had players and Maddon didn't, the shoe was completely on the other foot  Don't get me wrong; I'm not defending Gardy, rather I am just clearly not proposing that Maddon as our manager holds much of a difference in win-loss record going forward.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Don't lose sight that Maddon, whatever his skills or lack thereof, was skipper of the team that was 66-96 one year and 97-win team and AL Pennant the next year. This is the NY-Boston division, not the central. Cubs can have him, though. He was never coming here. Just might have been nice to give him a call and hear what he had to say.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I can't help myself from agreeing with this, but I absolutely detest the use of the word "cheap", because I think it way oversimplifies the organization's historic point of view and approach, like the approach or not.

 

At times I wish they were more secretive, not less, frankly. There's an article in the Detroit Free Press by Henning that I saw referenced on Twitter yesterday about the absolute mess Dombrowski is in regarding their intractable obligations. Pressed on the issue, Dombrowski is quoted as saying "we don't discuss payroll". And in Cleveland, fans are up in arms about their $75M payroll budget. Now watch the KC fireworks begin. No team spends enough to satisfy their fans it seems. Detroit spent $179M and look what the fans got? If they had just spent a little more...

 

My point is, we can get all whipped up about missing out on Maddon, and we'll probably never have even an inkling of all the conversations among league GM's, agents , etc behind the scenes, nuances that would paint the accurate picture as to why the Twins may have acted as they did, whatever actions those were. But to describe the reason for Maddon going elsewhere as simply and strictly a function of the Twins being perceived as cheap rings hollow. Maybe they think Maddon has become an egotistical blowhard and isn't a better option than any of a dozen other choices, who knows.

 

But, hey, they brought the cheap label on themselves by being stupid and sloppy with their communication about these things and by oftentimes being...frugal...without articulating why their perception of value doesn't match the fans'.

+1

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

I'm guessing the twins knew Maddon had zero interest. Just because they didn't speak directly to him doesn't mean they didn't know he had no desire to come to the Twins. Also we much as I like him I don't think it was in the twins best interests to get into a bidding war with the cubs and possibly dodgers. I hate the cubs, but if he leads them to a World Series he is probably the 2nd most revered chicago sports team related person besides Phil Jackson.

I think you misspelled Mike Ditka, but yes, If Maddon wins a WS with the Cubbies, he'll never pay for a meal in Chicago again.

[jokin]

I think a lot of what you say here is true.  They brought it on themselves.  But I can't let the Twins off the hook on the Maddon front, because I have a really, really hard time believing they thought he was not at least on par from a candidate perspective as Doug, Molitor, and Luvollo.  It clearly was not about talent.

 

I personally don't know if I buy the La Velle story about us reaching out.  He is rarely, if ever accurate or has breaking news.  It seems more likely that the Twins use him to leak things they want leaked.  We do know that if we did reach out, it took us several days to do so.  It was a long shot that Maddon would come here either way, but people have ego's and if our actions from day 1 were to pursue him aggressively then who knows.

 

Maddon was apparently interested in a team that was closer to contention than we are.  Well the Cubs have a very similar farm system than we do and they won exactly 3 more games this year than we did.  Come to think of it, our system has more high end pitchers than theirs does.  But a belief exists with Maddon that they will be more active on the free agent front and have the willingness to spend. 

 

And a belief that Theo Epstein will make all of that happen, including firing and eating the contract from the existing manager- who, come to think of it- due diligence and all, should also get a call from the Twins.

[JB_Iowa]

jay, on 30 Oct 2014 - 06:44 AM, said:
Yet another example of jumping to conclusions and making false facts out of preliminary, partial information?
Shocking.

JB:

Or maybe someone quickly reached out in the last day or so to cover their b*tts.

 

ChiTown:

Or maybe not.

 

 

TODAY:

Darren Wolfson @DarrenWolfson     ·  54m 54 minutes ago  

#MNTwins have talked w/ Maddon. @LaVelleNeal first. Happened since my last Maddon tweet. Sense still remains that he isn't landing here.

 

Prior tweet was on Tyesday,10/28:

Darren Wolfson @DarrenWolfson     ·   Oct 28   

To reiterate since it's a popular question in my feed: ZERO traction connecting Joe Maddon to the #MNTwins. In fact, zero dialogue.

 

 

Either they were cpvering their b*tts or incredibly slow off the mark.  Neither are desirable IMO.

 

 

In more intersting news:

 

Darren Wolfson @DarrenWolfson     ·  10h 10 hours ago  

Hmmm. “@DavidADorsey: I have a very strong gut feeling that Mientkiewicz will be named Twins manager between tomorrow & Monday. Stay tuned.”

[tobi0040]

And a belief that Theo Epstein will make all of that happen, including firing and eating the contract from the existing manager- who, come to think of it- due diligence and all, should also get a call from the Twins.

 

That is part of it too.  I would not be shocked if part of the pitch to Maddon is that they intend to outbid everyone for Scherzer or Lester this off-season.

 

The current rotation features Arrieta, Edwin Jackson, Wood, and Hammel. According to MLB, their top pitching prospect is #5 on their ranking  and he had shoulder inflammation this year.  The next pitcher is #8 and he had TJ in 2012. 

[tobi0040]

Either they were covering their b*tts or incredibly slow off the mark.  Neither are desirable IMO.

 

 

Spot on.  Certainly not being aggressive.  We should have accepted from day 1 that he was at least on par with the three guys we were interviewing for the job.  You can also set up an interview and conduct due diligence simultaneously.

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

The current rotation features Arrieta, Edwin Jackson, Wood, and Hammel. 

Hammel was traded to the A's this summer (although I think he is a FA and could probably be had fairly cheaply, given his Oakland performance).

[tobi0040]

Hammel was traded to the A's this summer (although I think he is a FA and could probably be had fairly cheaply, given his Oakland performance).

 

Yeah, so they are for sure signing a top free agent pitcher.