Sano to the Outfield

[Mike Sixel]

I never compared him to Harper, not once.

 

I said that the commentators on this thread would have Harper in AA, still learning to catch. big, big, big difference.

[drjim]

I never compared him to Harper, not once.

 

I said that the commentators on this thread would have Harper in AA, still learning to catch. big, big, big difference.

 

And equally absurd.

[Mike Sixel]

I don't think so, but maybe I'm reading too much into the comments.

 

Maybe the commentors would have moved him to the OF the day he was drafted, but I don't read the comments that way. Maybe by now they would have moved him off catcher, but what if he was about the C that Sano is a 3B right now? Which seems like a reasonable guess, doesn't it?

 

Heck, there is a guy on this thread arguing Harper isn't a good hitter......

 

You might be right, I could be reading everyone wrong on this thread.

[drjim]

I don't think so, but maybe I'm reading too much into the comments.

 

Maybe the commentors would have moved him to the OF the day he was drafted, but I don't read the comments that way. Maybe by now they would have moved him off catcher, but what if he was about the C that Sano is a 3B right now? Which seems like a reasonable guess, doesn't it?

 

Heck, there is a guy on this thread arguing Harper isn't a good hitter......

 

You might be right, I could be reading everyone wrong on this thread.

 

Now THAT, unequivocally, was absurd.

 

But yes, probably making assumptions on points that weren't being made which lead to an ill-advise comparison of the handling of Harper to the (potential) handling of Sano - comparing the best pure hitting prospect in a generation to a very good prospect who just missed a full year due to injury.

[Mike Sixel]

I tried to stop, but work was boring today, and someone said harper wasn't good, and I just kept going and going. I'm done now. really.

 

I want Sano up this year, if healthy and bombing. I don't want him in AAA just so maybe he can play 3B for 2-3 meaningless years while we wait for other prospects to come up.

 

Heck, I didn't even think of that angle.......if we pretty much know they will stink next year, and maybe be around .500 in 2 years, why wast 2-3 years at 3B, if it is almost inevitable he moves to 1B or OF in 3-4 years?

[DocBauer]

Could Sano end up being decent or even good defensively at 3B? Sure. The part I don't think you've addressed is how he plays 3B if your scenario about Plouffe maintaining or improving holds true. If that's the case, don't you get Sano in the lineup as a corner OFer? Why not do that now?

 

This is the aspect of 'positional value' that fails, IMO. If Sano ends up in the OF because the Twins have a decent/good 3B but a gap in the OF, Sano is worth less? Team context is lost in making those kinds of valuations. This is coming from a guy who places a lot of value in advanced metrics...

My comments regarding the solid play of Plouffe, and possible progress, has to do with A) not trading him at this time as he is a quality place holder and could have even more trade value later, rather than now, when Sano is ready to take over.

 

I think it's simply naive to think Sano, no matter how talented, will play part of a winter league season and that will be enough to shake off a season's worth of rust and just claim the 3B immediately. Plouffe represents the NOW, and not in a bad way at all.

 

Some have compared Sano to Santana this season, a bat that is placed within the lineup to take advantage. Not saying that is a mistake, given a hole, a need, and the potential run of a team. And it's been done before, on a short term basis, before the player in question moves back to his more natural position. But to suggest a hurry up mode of thought to get him up, in my opinion would be wrong because he could be that much more special at 3B, even with some growing pains.

 

A converse arguement would have been for the Twins to promote Mauer quickly to the OF, and keep AJ at C. I know it doesn't correlate exactly, but it's similar. Mauer had more pure value at C, and Sano has even more value at 3B, with Plouffe as a quality holder for now.

[DocBauer]

I tried to stop, but work was boring today, and someone said harper wasn't good, and I just kept going and going. I'm done now. really.

 

I want Sano up this year, if healthy and bombing. I don't want him in AAA just so maybe he can play 3B for 2-3 meaningless years while we wait for other prospects to come up.

 

Heck, I didn't even think of that angle.......if we pretty much know they will stink next year, and maybe be around .500 in 2 years, why wast 2-3 years at 3B, if it is almost inevitable he moves to 1B or OF in 3-4 years?

I don't think there is any thought, at this point, that he can't play 3B at the ML level, though there most undoubtedly will be continued development on the job. Again, most quality, offensive 3B prospects don't just arrive with a gold glove. And again, I reference Gaetti and Koskie from the Twins universe. And while it is possible Sano could slow down, or outgrow his position at some point....maybe, at some point, but it's not a given...I don't know that anyone could product IF anymore than WHEN, in regard to a 3-4 year proposal.

[TheLeviathan]

I tried to stop, but work was boring today, and someone said harper wasn't good, and I just kept going and going. 

 

Good thing no one said that.

 

In any case, the rush to move Sano is what really mystifies me.  Right now he's playing a really valuable position and the only guy in his way has already bounced around positions.  If his bat needs to come up, Plouffe can snag his OF glove, but I would like to see Sano stay where he is until we see a lengthy run at it in the big leagues.

 

There is nothing more dubious, in my eyes, than minor league scouting reports on defense.

[glunn]

Well, I guess I shouldn't have started this thread because in the St. Paul paper this morning TR said he has no plans to shift Sano to the outfield.  Rather, when the question was asked it was "could" Sano play the oufield, as in was athletic enough, to which TR affirmed that yes, in fact, he was a good enough athlete to play there. 

 

A little context is important I guess.  Not surprising that the St. Paul paper is the one that actually reports the scenario accurately.

I listened to the Twins fan forum conference call on Wednesday evening and took notes.  

 

My notes show that (on Wednesday) TR said that he had seen Sano the previous day and he is healthy.  TR then said that Sano would be in camp in spring training, but won't make the club out of spring training.  TR then said that Sano could play in the outfield if there is a roadblock at 3B -- Sano has speed and can throw.

[stringer bell]

I listened to the Twins fan forum conference call on Wednesday evening and took notes.  

 

My notes show that (on Wednesday) TR said that he had seen Sano the previous day and he is healthy.  TR then said that Sano would be in camp in spring training, but won't make the club out of spring training.  TR then said that Sano could play in the outfield if there is a roadblock at 3B -- Sano has speed and can throw.

So that absolutely means that Sano will never play third base again. If he can't make it as an outfielder he won't make it to the big leagues.

 

 

 

 

 

(Sarcasm)

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I tried to stop, but work was boring today, and someone said harper wasn't good, and I just kept going and going. I'm done now. really.

 

I want Sano up this year, if healthy and bombing. I don't want him in AAA just so maybe he can play 3B for 2-3 meaningless years while we wait for other prospects to come up.

 

Heck, I didn't even think of that angle.......if we pretty much know they will stink next year, and maybe be around .500 in 2 years, why wast 2-3 years at 3B, if it is almost inevitable he moves to 1B or OF in 3-4 years?

shouldn't Mauer get his pilot's license now? Flying cars will become the standard in the next 20 years or so. It's inevitable.

[glunn]

So that absolutely means that Sano will never play third base again. If he can't make it as an outfielder he won't make it to the big leagues.

 

 

 

 

 

(Sarcasm)

I was merely reporting what I heard TR say on Wednesday's conference call.  My personal impression was that TR was stating this as a possibility if there is a roadblock at third base.

[stringer bell]

I was merely reporting what I heard TR say on Wednesday's conference call.  My personal impression was that TR was stating this as a possibility if there is a roadblock at third base.

I was merely making light of 132 posts about a hypothetical that probably wouldn't come into play until 2016.

[Kelly Vance]

You know, both Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle started as shortstops. In fact, most ML players probably were the best players on their high school teams and played SS and pitched in high school. Moving to the OF is no big deal for Sano. 

[diehardtwinsfan]

The OF defense was pretty bad this year, and even if Sano hits like Babe Ruth, I'm not sure I'm ready for him in LF.  I'd rather him play 3B where he would be less of a liability.  I think the Twins get to roll the dice with Plouffe for another season, and if he has the same year or improves (which I think he will) a bit, he's going to be quite valuable in a trade if Sano rakes in AA/AAA.  If Vargas struggles, Sano can get some DH time in the majors as well.  That would be my plan.  Plouffe is not this team's problem as he was above average on both offense and defense. 

 

In conclusion, let Sano prove he's ready, then decide what to do.  One could get hurt and this situation could work itself out, or one could struggle.  I'd punt on this decision for at least another year.

[Mike Sixel]

A year? You'd leave Sano in AAA for a year?

 

so, basically, both Buxton and Sano are rookies in 2016? Not my favorite plan, frankly.

[bird]

What message would the Twins be sending to the Keplers; Walkers; & Harrisons on next years AA team if they put Sano in a crowded outfield with Buxton as well.  Somebody's progresss would come to a halt and not just slow down.  Even if Sano and Buxton move on (AAA / MLB) by midseason, The other 3 will be losing major reps.  Somebody (Kepler/Walker/Harrison) probably would be better off traded or you are truly wasting a potential talent in a crowed outfield.  One of those 3 is going to be a major outfield contributor at the MLB level. 

 

In terms of Buxton in the outfield - Cedar Rapids (2013) and Fort Myers (2014) were solid defensivelyin the outfield each of those years.  To the point of having the best record in each league.  Buxton can help any outfield is my point.  And even without Buxton, those other 3 guys were pretty damn good all season in making the plays they were expected to make.  They are all fundamentally sound which should make thier bats more valuable at the next level.  They might not win you games in the outfield, but they won't lose you games either.

Worrying about Kepler, ABWIII and Harrison isn't on my list, since they're just as likely to become Bobby Kielty, Buck Buchanan and Dustan Mohr than to become fixtures, if they make the big leagues at all.

 

There's a ton of angst about keeping Santana in CF until Buxton arrives, and then moving him to SS, with the argument being "we" need to see if he can play SS now. I don't buy into that angst, because I think the Twin already have a very clear picture of what Santana can do at SS, so leaving him in CF for another half-season to get both he and Escobar in the lineup makes sense to me. Sano to the OF is different to me. I'm surmising that the Twins need to see him at 3B and moving him to OF temporarily, unlike Santana, does delay his development. Until someone says he's flunked the 3B test, I hope I don't see him roaming right field as his regular position. Plouffee to me is irrelevant.

[Willihammer]

Santana to CF

Plouffe to SS

Sano to 3B

Mauer to LF

Vargas to 1B

Pinto to DH

...

Hicks to RP

[drjim]

The OF defense was pretty bad this year, and even if Sano hits like Babe Ruth, I'm not sure I'm ready for him in LF.  I'd rather him play 3B where he would be less of a liability.  I think the Twins get to roll the dice with Plouffe for another season, and if he has the same year or improves (which I think he will) a bit, he's going to be quite valuable in a trade if Sano rakes in AA/AAA.  If Vargas struggles, Sano can get some DH time in the majors as well.  That would be my plan.  Plouffe is not this team's problem as he was above average on both offense and defense. 

 

In conclusion, let Sano prove he's ready, then decide what to do.  One could get hurt and this situation could work itself out, or one could struggle.  I'd punt on this decision for at least another year.

 

Don't want to speak for everyone, but if keeping Sano in LF leads to him hitting like Babe Ruth I'd be OK with it.

[diehardtwinsfan]

A year? You'd leave Sano in AAA for a year?

 

so, basically, both Buxton and Sano are rookies in 2016? Not my favorite plan, frankly.

I'd call them up when they are ready, not based on some notion that I don't want them to both be rookies in 2016. I'd much rather them both be rookies in 2016 then to have one of them up in 2015 only to struggle b/c he wasn't ready. Buxton has had all of a half a game playing in AA and Sano showed some pretty serious contact issues in his half season there. If they arrive at the same time, so be it, but I'd rather they arrive with less to work on then to force one of them into a position they haven't played while expecting them to learn to hit major league pitching.

[drjim]

Santana to CF

Plouffe to SS

Sano to 3B

Mauer to LF

Vargas to 1B

Pinto to DH

...

Hicks to RP

 

Is making a terrible defensive lineup a feature or bug of this plan?

[tobi0040]

Don't want to speak for everyone, but if keeping Sano in LF leads to him hitting like Babe Ruth I'd be OK with it.

 

Put him in center if he hits 50 HR and has an OPS of 1.100

[diehardtwinsfan]

Don't want to speak for everyone, but if keeping Sano in LF leads to him hitting like Babe Ruth I'd be OK with it.

I'd keep him at 3rd and find a real LF

[Willihammer]

Is making a terrible defensive lineup a feature or bug of this plan?

Yes

 

h/t Chief

[jay]

Is making a terrible defensive lineup a feature or bug of this plan?

 

But think of how many runs we'd score!  We can't even measure defense anyway. 

[Kwak]

My how everybody wears the roseiest of rose-colored glasses with respect to Sano.  I recall many comments about Arcia ("...he's gonna mash!...") before he was promoted.  I will kindly refrain from repeating those about Hicks.

[diehardtwinsfan]

After reading much of the rest of this thread after my weekend absence, I have a few more comments:

 

1) I think people are talking past each other a bit, arguing for what they think the other is saying and not for what they are attempting to say. That's especially true when people try to argue about what 'some posters' might want. I'd say as a moderator that this can be a bit inflammatory as its somewhat insulting and no one really knows who it's being directed at... let's be careful here.

 

2) Let's also stay away from accusations of being 'absurd'.

 

Now back on topic I think. Harper and Machado represented much different things to their teams. The Orioles and Nats were both in races and these guys could help them right then and there being out of position. There is short term gain that offsets that long term loss. I think it's a bit different with the Twins, who have finished up another 90+ loss season. Having them rush a prospect and make room for said prospect just for the sake of bringing them up early is not going to get much in the short term (especially given how little time Sano has had in the upper minors) and hurts more in the long term. Elite play at certain positions (CF, 3B, SS, SP in particular) is far more valuable, and I think it's in the team's best interest long term to NOT be moving guys off of those roles just to get them up. If Plouffe was posting a .900 OPS and good defense, I'd probably be looking for a spot for Sano, or trading Vargas for a LF, but right now, as a developing team, I still think it would be wise for the Twins to let this situation play out. I don't see moving Sano to the OF to be the best decision they could make, especially given how poor their OF defense was.

[drjim]

After reading much of the rest of this thread after my weekend absence, I have a few more comments:

 

1) I think people are talking past each other a bit, arguing for what they think the other is saying and not for what they are attempting to say. That's especially true when people try to argue about what 'some posters' might want. I'd say as a moderator that this can be a bit inflammatory as its somewhat insulting and no one really knows who it's being directed at... let's be careful here.

 

 

If you can't say "some posters" how are you supposed to beat down straw man arguments?

[ashbury]

Santana to CF

Plouffe to SS

Sano to 3B

Mauer to LF

Vargas to 1B

Defense to pot.

[ALessKosherScott]

1) I think people are talking past each other a bit, arguing for what they think the other is saying and not for what they are attempting to say. That's especially true when people try to argue about what 'some posters' might want. I'd say as a moderator that this can be a bit inflammatory as its somewhat insulting and no one really knows who it's being directed at... let's be careful here.

 

 

IMO, it's less that and more people have chosen their sides.

 

Argument 1:

 

Trevor Plouffe is a nice little third baseman, but he's no All-Star and you don't block a potential talent like Sano with him.

 

Argument 2:

 

Trevor Plouffe is a nice little third baseman, and it's been ten years of wandering through the wilderness post-Koskie for the organization to find a nice, little third baseman. Which is also about the time frame from Gaetti to Koskie. Guys like Plouffe don't come around everyday, so if Sano can't field third base and we commit to him there it could be trouble.

 

Both are very Faustian bargains, full of win or lose. It all comes down to which devil you want to deal with. But you never win when you deal with devils. And if you look at a team that successfully dealt with this same situation, there's a reason both Rendon and Ryan Zimmerman are still in Washington.