Two Opinions

[old nurse]

To get bak to the subject thread, am I to infer from Gardy's quote that things are getting better because the team is pulling for each other now?

 

Wouldn't the implication then be they haven't been pulling for each other for some time now under his leadership?

Just curious, how do you advocate to make people be who they are not? How do you make a player pull for other players? You are saying that Gardenhire should have been able to make someone a team player. I have worked with some real doozies  that management tried to change but couldn't. It should be praise that management has moved these people out of the system.

[TheLeviathan]

I'm a believer that personalities and clubhouse mix do matter, at least more than some want to acknowledge.  But this club, and manager in particular, have often been far too eager to believe "happy" players are the same as "good" players.

 

Let's hope the comradery continues but the baseball needs to get better too.  They aren't mutually exclusive, but nor does one entail the other.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 It should be praise that management has moved these people out of the system.

 

On that same note, it should be criticism that Gardy & coaches advocated moving some of these guys into the system. Not sure who exactly you are referring to though. 

[SheboyganBrats]

I think Gardy is acknowledging that something has been missing for some time, and he recognized it when he had it.  Call it what you will-- "fire in the belly," team spirit, leadership and accountability-- it comes partly from the manager, but a lot of it has to come from the players themselves.  During the years the Twins were winning a lot of games under Gardenhire, Hunter was given a lot of credit for generating leadership and accountability, resulting in team cohesion and winning attitude.  After Hunter left, I think a lot of that fell to Cuddyer.  I remember a lot of complaints about lack of leadership from Mauer and Morneau, as if size of contract translates to team leader.  I don't think what Gardy is talking about necessarily translates into wins.  You need real talent, too.  But it seems like all of the really successful teams have had it.  If I read Gardy's quote right, I think he is saying that this aspect of the team is beginning to come together, and he believes that tangible results-- more wins-- are on the way, though maybe not just yet.  Is Gardy the right manager to lead that going forward?  Well, I'm not going to step into the fray because I really don't know the answer.  Besides, I don't think I could change any opinions anyway. 

[Mike Sixel]

Not playing Pinto in games that matter goes back to trying to win the game.  Playing teams that are in playoff contention it is the right thing to do.

 

So you are saying "pinto is so bad, we can't win with him".....that's my point. he's not exactly helping the young man believe he is, or will be, a MLB player. he's basically telling him "you are not good enough to play in games that count". That is no way to build for the future. 

[old nurse]

On that same note, it should be criticism that Gardy & coaches advocated moving some of these guys into the system. Not sure who exactly you are referring to though. 

 Gardenhire is happy to have players who pull for each other. I guess it is my bad to think that implied there were players here who did not and those players were moved out. It might not be just this year's players, but  other season's players he was referring to as well as this season's. I don't know if they were players Gardenhire wanted in the system or not.

Maybe Kubel and Bartlet were the pull for each other kind of guy Gardenhire wanted. Unfortunately their production determined that you have to pull your own weight as well as pull for the other guy.

[Mike Sixel]

I think the pulling together thing is a bit indicative that some of these guys actually played together in the minors, and they finally have some young, excited to be in the majors players, on the roster again. This team was both old and bad. Now it is just bad. That helps the chemistry, I'd think.

[old nurse]

So you are saying "pinto is so bad, we can't win with him".....that's my point. he's not exactly helping the young man believe he is, or will be, a MLB player. he's basically telling him "you are not good enough to play in games that count". That is no way to build for the future. 

Statistically wise, Suzuki offers the better chance for winning than Pinto right now. I did not in any way say what you are saying I said.  By resigning Suzuki to a contract, Suzuki is the short term future.

[Mike Sixel]

Gardy is saying that to him, not you. He's telling Pinto he's so bad, that he should not be allowed in a game that counts.

 

Even against the White Sox.....

[Winston Smith]

Actually Gardy made a statement like this the last couple years trying, imo, to say the team hasn't given up on him.

That's fine he wants to keep his job, which is understandable he gets paid very well.

 

 

This will be the third year in a row I've asked this question:

 

How many more years of 90+ losses will it take for before there needs to be a change?

[Kwak]

Gardenhire could have made this statement weeks ago.  Saying it now seems a bit self-serving.  Wagons are circling at 1 Twins Way (and doesn't that address shed light on the entire organization's character?) concerning who gets blamed for this season's disaster.  I certainly hope the Pohlads learn from the Wilf's mistakes concerning "ignoring the fans" when making decisions.

[old nurse]

Gardy is saying that to him, not you. He's telling Pinto he's so bad, that he should not be allowed in a game that counts.

 

Even against the White Sox.....

Again, phrased slightly differently. When they signed Suzuki to a contract that should be a clear indication to Pinto what his role will be. He is either going to be a backup player with DH/PH duties and should expect 2-3 games a week behind the plate. He has played games against the White Sox, Cleveland and even the Angels since his call up 2 weeks ago. He is playing in that limited role.. 

Telling someone there is a player ahead of them on the depth charts is merely that, there is a player playing better than you. That player even played in an All Star game this year. I really don't think not being able to unseat an All Star while working on your skills should destroy a player's confidence. I can see how someone might think that not getting into games means you are not very good, but one does have to look a little broader.

[bird]

Not playing Pinto in games that matter goes back to trying to win the game.  Playing teams that are in playoff contention it is the right thing to do.

Pinto has got nine friggin years under his belt. The Twins, being the Twins, have probably given Pinto about the best chance a prospect can get to become a MLB-caliber two-way player. 

 

Fault Gardy all you want, but maybe the reality is you just disagree with the judgment call on him. I don't have a lick of evaluation skill, but I'd venture a good guess that Pinto will never be adequate behind the plate. Personally, I can't stand watching him flounder around back there, and he comes in third at best as far as DH's go, behind Arcia and Vargas. His bat is nice, not great.

 

Is it perhaps ironic that the criticism about not playing Pinto is coming from someone who's generally all about wins and losses?  Could it simply be that throwing Pinto behind the plate is counter-productive in the opinion of the decision-makers there? And that winning a few of these final games while still playing the young guys with the most promise is the balancing act that's going on here?

[bird]

On that same note, it should be criticism that Gardy & coaches advocated moving some of these guys into the system. Not sure who exactly you are referring to though. 

He's talking exclusively about Delmon Young. That damn Billy Smith.

[bird]

Gardy's quote about "this team is going to do a lot of winning and do so quickly and soon" is a self serving prophecy and a plea to keep his job, nothing more nothing less. Problem is he has turned off and tuned out so much of the fan base with the bad pitching staffs, Gardyism's and cliches, insisting on bringing back Bobos on his coaching staff,  and Gardy guys like Bartlett and Kubel,  and the stubborness of keeping his friend as pitching coach. He has turned off the fans so much so can ownership really retain him because they will suffer at the turnstile and the gate if he is kept on. There is no All Star game to sell after this year and the teams most notable player and star is an aging veteran that is controversial because of the salary and injury history. I don't care if young guys like Pinto and Hicks, or  Oliveros and Tonkin as such are not winners right now, every at bat wasted on an Eric Fryer, Brian Duensing, or someone else in there place has shown the reluctance of Gardenhire to develop younger talents over stop gap veterans. To turn the page an old stubborn goat like Gardy is going to have to quit with the reaching back to try and bring back past there prime veterans like Cudeyyer or Hunter, you know he is going to politic to overpay and bring back one of those guys as a free agent instead of moving on from that. Even if they were winners bringing back Gardy "guy's" isn't going to be a solution to help this franchise turn the corner.

 

Why would he, Gadenhire, want to leave the Twins as manager? There is little to no pressure on him to win in the post season just win Central Division championships, keep people buying Twins Jerseys, concessions, beer  and buying tickets and that is what the Pohlads care about. Win just enough to give the illusion that the Twins are a contender and everyone is happy. These owners are not comitted to winning a World Championship,it has been so long since the team actually contended for the big crown, when there Dad and Mom called the shots,  they have forgotten what it takes to even do so.

This manager has never had any interest in moving on to another organization and proving that he could elevate there team and win with them, why would he want to leave, the owners pay him well and they keep him on even when the teams have stunk up the joint, and he is comfortable and likes where he lives. Bringing back Ron Gardenhire is going to be an incredibly tough sell to the fan base even ownership must realize that by now, even if Gardy doesn't realize it.

The Twins have not been worth the prices they charge for tickets entertainment wise the last three years, the baseball has just been far too lousy for many of us to want to continue investing in buying in this team and paying that kind of money, with this manager as the leader of the clubhouse. I would rather they bring back TK and AP in management of the Twins than stay the course with Gardy and TR, at least those guys knew how to put together a team that coud win it all, this group just pleases ownership and gives the illusion of winning or potential. Potential get's old when it is never realized.

I'm all in favor of bringing on a new manager. Almost all of my hope for a change is because I'd like to see less vitriol directed at our field staff. For a year or so.

 

This notion that his statements are some sort of calculated, self-serving strategy to fight for his job? Sorry, that's laughable to me. Frankly, I'm not sure Gardy is clever enough to pull something like that off.

 

People read WAY too much into some of his comments. C'mon, he's just not that complicated.

[nicksaviking]

Oldgoat, your life raft here is what Ryan accomplishes in the off-season. I think many of us were pleasantly surprised with the off-season additions of Hughes and Nolasco last winter. Ryan went on record recently as saying one of his ongoing priorities will be "rotation depth". He's got cash, he's got an owner showing some impatience, he's got at least a few trade chips for once, and more of the competitors for the available talent are tapped out. Don't dismiss the possibility that Ryan acquires a front-line starter from somewhere.

 

I think we've said the same thing every off season for 20 yeras.

 

A team can have plenty of talent, either young or old, but we know that doesn't always translate into wins.  They Twins do have some young talent up, which I'm sure we're all grateful for, but they aren't learning how to win, unless we are going to SSS the last two games.  There's ten games left, if they can win 6-7 of them, maybe we can consider calling this an improvement.  It will still be a small sample, but I'd give the idea consideration.  I love watching talented baseball players, but I love watching them win more.

 

And for the record, I actually do put some stock into the visual evidence that these guys are "in the dugout standing up, rooting for each other."  I see the young guys on the top step of the dugout constantly and appearing as though they are really invested in the game.  It may seem silly, but winning teams do seem to do this.  The last several years the Twins seem to be disinterested dugout slouchers.  The young guys do seem to have the energy I remember from 2000-2007, Santana, Arcia, Escobar and Vargas in particular.  I think we have something here, but I want to see the wins or I don't think it will last.

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

Someone commented on Reusse's article that signing Gardenhire to a two year extension and Anderson to just one year was intentionally making Anderson the scapegoat and insulating Gardy from the criticism.

 

There might be something to that - the Twins did choose to announce firing Jerry White and the other coaches during the season ticket renewal period - "Hey we're making changes, we hear you!"

 

So, I expect to hear that Anderson is not coming back sometime in October.. (or sooner) "See? The Twins are listening to you and taking action!"

 

That's a pretty cynical take, I don't buy it really myself, but I did entertain that it was possible for a few moments...

[ericchri]

Not playing Pinto in games that matter goes back to trying to win the game.  Playing teams that are in playoff contention it is the right thing to do.

 

I'll choose to disagree with you on this statement.  It may be appreciated by the Royals, but that doesn't make it "right."  He has a responsibility to do what's right for the Twins also, not just upholding the integrity of other teams' playoff push.  I'm not up in arms over it (it's pretty hard to get me up in arms over anything beyond padding closers' save statistics) but I think it's not the right choice for what the Twins need right now.  Admirable?  Sure.  Right?  Not in my opinion.

[bird]

I think we've said the same thing every off season for 20 yeras.

 

A team can have plenty of talent, either young or old, but we know that doesn't always translate into wins.  They Twins do have some young talent up, which I'm sure we're all grateful for, but they aren't learning how to win, unless we are going to SSS the last two games.  There's ten games left, if they can win 6-7 of them, maybe we can consider calling this an improvement.  It will still be a small sample, but I'd give the idea consideration.  I love watching talented baseball players, but I love watching them win more.

 

And for the record, I actually do put some stock into the visual evidence that these guys are "in the dugout standing up, rooting for each other."  I see the young guys on the top step of the dugout constantly and appearing as though they are really invested in the game.  It may seem silly, but winning teams do seem to do this.  The last several years the Twins seem to be disinterested dugout slouchers.  The young guys do seem to have the energy I remember from 2000-2007, Santana, Arcia, Escobar and Vargas in particular.  I think we have something here, but I want to see the wins or I don't think it will last.

 I don't buy that, nick. A lot of commenters liked the moves made last winter. The same commenters, not so much the year before. I think you're going to be pleasantly surprised by this group in a year or so. I remember a group with this vibe, losing big time at first. They weren't "bad players". Hrbek, Gaettii, Puckett et al were young and raw. Like this group. With the best of them not yet on display. This is a special group. That's what Gardy said, and people are crucifying him for it. This is not the second coming of the Rich Becker, Scott Stahoviak group. You can feel it. You don't need a handful more wins in their inaugural season to sense it. 

[Mike Sixel]

 I don't buy that, nick. A lot of commenters liked the moves made last winter. The same commenters, not so much the year before. I think you're going to be pleasantly surprised by this group in a year or so. I remember a group with this vibe, losing big time at first. They weren't "bad players". Hrbek, Gaettii, Puckett et al were young and raw. Like this group. With the best of them not yet on display. This is a special group. That's what Gardy said, and people are crucifying him for it. This is not the second coming of the Rich Becker, Scott Stahoviak group. You can feel it. You don't need a handful more wins in their inaugural season to sense it. 

 I agree with most of this, as long as Gardy says "if we suck next year, it is on me, and you can fire me"......

[Kelly Vance]

Gardy is blowing smoke to try to save his job. But what he says publicly doesn't matter there.  He is like a "made man" in the Mafia. Can't hit him.  Gardy is a stubborn old dinosaur. And he can't make something out of nothing. He is just not creative enough.

 

But there is plenty of blame to go around. The ownership has not given him good pitchers, and their Nolasco and Hughes and Pelfrey signings failed mainly (2 out of 3 anyway). Maybe Ricky can find his old stuff next year. Too much invested there not to let him try to bounce back.

 

But look, the Twins finaly realized they needed to let the kids play. Santana and Vargas are pleasant surprises. I might add Arcia. But they should not have been surprises at all. Anyway, they showed what they can do by now. I think the Twins ought to bring up Meyer and Berrios and Bux and Sano next year out of spring training and let them play. I'd much rather watch those kids than Hammer, Cola and Parm and even Shafe. I mean, what's to lose?  If you are going to lose 90 games anyay, how is letting the kids play going to hurt? Let the kids get experience.

 

Sign Torii to a two year contract and let him teach the kids how to win. Sign a #1 pitcher and try to contend.  The youthful energy and exuberrance will charge the Twins up.

[Mike Sixel]

Torii is a bad baseball player right now, please don't sign him.

[Oldgoat_MN]

Oldgoat, your life raft here is what Ryan accomplishes in the off-season. I think many of us were pleasantly surprised with the off-season additions of Hughes and Nolasco last winter. Ryan went on record recently as saying one of his ongoing priorities will be "rotation depth". He's got cash, he's got an owner showing some impatience, he's got at least a few trade chips for once, and more of the competitors for the available talent are tapped out. Don't dismiss the possibility that Ryan acquires a front-line starter from somewhere.

 

I won't dismiss the possibility, as I believe that the Pohlads are serious about winning.

 

It just seems against Terry Ryan's nature to sign a true front-line starter. His approach, again and again, has been to sign some below average to average guys and hope they have a career year.

 

I'm all for this changing. I'll be shocked and delighted if it does.

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

Dang that's a lot of runs allowed.

[nicksaviking]

 I don't buy that, nick. A lot of commenters liked the moves made last winter. The same commenters, not so much the year before. I think you're going to be pleasantly surprised by this group in a year or so. I remember a group with this vibe, losing big time at first. They weren't "bad players". Hrbek, Gaettii, Puckett et al were young and raw. Like this group. With the best of them not yet on display. This is a special group. That's what Gardy said, and people are crucifying him for it. This is not the second coming of the Rich Becker, Scott Stahoviak group. You can feel it. You don't need a handful more wins in their inaugural season to sense it. 

 

I think you misunderstand.  I DO think the young guys up now have the energy and commitment to win.  However, they currently are not doing so.  I didn't dispute that the talent has improved, but I do want to see results, and if we don't, changes need to be made.  I don't want these young guys to waste their enthusiasm for the next year and a half only to then realize that the right leadership is not in place to traslate that talent into wins.

 

Losing seems to be contageous.  I don't want to find out that this team's leadership can only manage 70 wins again in 2015 and watch the young guys trasition from "top of the dugout" personalities to "bench slouchers".

[Guest]

Gardy is a proven winner like Matt Capps is a proven closer.  Sure, he had some good seasons in the past (although, geez, history sure would be more in his favor if he won more than one post-season series in his career), but . . . oh, my, he should go before he figuratively falls down chasing a ball in centerfield, to mix metaphors.  To use another analogy, a manager with four straight seasons of 90+ losses seems equivalent to being a left fielder with a .625 OPS.

 

People saying Gardy should stay are using the same message the team used when Johan Santana was here and said was a reason he wanted to leave - "it's going to get better next year (or the year after that)."  After a while, the scholarship is over.  I am not familiar with many few organizations in any line of business that keep a leader after four straight years of terrible results and, of the small group that does, I'm not aware of any that see improvement under that leader.

 

By the way, my prediction is that Gardy will return in 2015, unless he chooses to leave.  Few good external candidates would want to come here without being certain of a total housecleaning in management, player development and pro and amateur scouting.  Team leadership could not contemplate that more than twenty seconds - mass change is not their style and they would worry about the message fans would infer from wholesale changes (not that different from companies that keep bad leadership in place under the stated belief that investors and employees would get scared if the bad leader was fired).  Instead, Twins leadership would consider it more palatable to muddle along for a few more years, hoping the fans continue as long as possible to buy the dream that one day Sano, Buxton and Meyer will turn into Cabrera, Trout and Verlander in his prime and lead the remaining players to the promised land.  Further, Bill Springman, the minor league hitting coordinator, has already been identified as the fall guy for 2014, despite the fact that players with 0-3 years of major league experience, i.e., recent recipients of minor league hitting instruction - are the predominant reason for the team's offensive improvement this year.

[The Wise One]

I'm all in favor of bringing on a new manager. Almost all of my hope for a change is because I'd like to see less vitriol directed at our field staff. For a year or so.

 

 

The vitrol will get directed at somone.. If not the field staff the number 12 or 13 man in the bullpen, the thirds catcher, the last guy on the bench.  Before the end of the year, there would be something with the field staff. Anything less than 174 wins for the season and the coach is a bum. The last 4 wins would be the most important.

[TheLeviathan]

The vitrol will get directed at somone.. If not the field staff the number 12 or 13 man in the bullpen, the thirds catcher, the last guy on the bench.  Before the end of the year, there would be something with the field staff. Anything less than 174 wins for the season and the coach is a bum. The last 4 wins would be the most important.

 

I love an argument that basically concludes "everyone is at fault"...because then no one is.

[gunnarthor]

The vitrol will get directed at somone.. If not the field staff the number 12 or 13 man in the bullpen, the thirds catcher, the last guy on the bench.  Before the end of the year, there would be something with the field staff. Anything less than 174 wins for the season and the coach is a bum. The last 4 wins would be the most important.

Yep, that's why it's good to have a GM and owner who don't listen to the Monday morning quarter backing.  

[nicksaviking]

Yep, that's why it's good to have a GM and owner who don't listen to the Monday morning quarter backing.  

 

Well it has been over 200 Mondays in a row now.