Twins seek rotation help for second straight offseason

[TheLeviathan]

Respectfully disagree as it is the same post over and over again. In an effort to discredit to make their point once again a poster changes context. The start of the thread it is eliminating half of the sentence that Ryan spoke. What you label as a great post takes what Ryan said while laughing as whining. How do you have a discussion with people when you cannot have faith in what they cite as being accurate? If a student handed you that kind of paper, what grade would you give?

 

 

There is no amount of context that turns "we thought Pelfrey and Coreia was a good plan" into a defensible idea. That idea, and the fact that Terry Ryan actually believed it, is exactly the problem.

[ThePuck]

There is no amount of context that turns "we thought Pelfrey and Coreia was a good plan" into a defensible idea. That idea, and the fact that Terry Ryan actually believed it, is exactly the problem.

 

Exactly...and I had already addressed the supposed context change myself earlier when I wrote:

 

'This isn't the only quote out there where he said Pelfrey and Correia were bright spots and then deflected how bad the rotation was. What he said in that quote minimizes how bad the rotation was when it starts off the way it did.

 

If he was just praising Pelfrey and Correia (like he did before) and taking blame for the rest of rotation as a whole, it would have been said differently. Something like, 'Pelfrey and Correia worked out well (which is not true, BTW, at least in regards to Pelfrey), and then he would have gone on to say the rest of the rotation didn't turn out making our rotation bad and in need of work. But that's not how it went down, he starts by saying the 'This year we thought we did a little better with the rotation with Correia and Pelfrey...'

 

BTW, does he believe if he says Pelfrey did well enough this offseason, people will start to believe it?'

 

The context doesn't change the fact that he's trying to minimize how bad the rotation was by starting his sentence the way he did and then pointing out some supposed bright spots (Correia and Pelfrey). My comments would have been the same with the whole thing in there....but the part I omitted doesn't change the main point of what he was saying anyway. If one is adamant that it does, they had the link I provided and they could discuss that instead of deflecting.

 

And, again, he's deflected this year's rotation issues in at least one other interview even when directly asked about the poor rotation by pointing to Pelfrey and Correia as his bright spots, then shifting the discussion to the poor offense. That interview was posted and discussed in TD already.

[nicksaviking]

What you label as a great post takes what Ryan said while laughing as whining. How do you have a discussion with people when you cannot have faith in what they cite as being accurate?

 

Well as long as your interpretation of that interview is the accurate one.

 

Is the zero inflection of hyperbole rule not in effect when one defends Terry Ryan?

 

The Dodger's GM is all smiles with his signings. Cleveland with Kazmir, Cubs with Feldman. As starters that is about it. Ryan has to be happy that Correia maintained his level of pitching and did not regress or get injured.

 

No other team was happy with their free agent starters?

 

I still stand by the whining statement, he may have been laughing, but it was in frustration and the comment was not helping the cause or the perception of the Twins as a free agent destination. It sounded like childish grousing.

[drivlikejehu]

I think Terry Ryan is not only inherently cheap, he simply doesn't like to take risks, weather on the FA market or making big trades when the team is contending. Even though the Pohlads seem to be giving their blessing to spend some money, I have a hard time believing TR will make a big signing. The Twins have never been in a better position to go after a guy like Tanaka, yet I would be floored if our favorite team was announced as the highest bidders. I don't think Terry Ryan can stand the thought of feeling responsible if, God forbid, a big ticket signing doesn't work out.

 

I don't think this really explains things. First of all, it's not Ryan's money. And he's well under his budget for spending Pohlad's money. So there's no real "risk" involved in signing second-tier free agents.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I would love to start envisioning a future Wood, Meyer, Stewart, Berrios, Gibson/May rotation

 

Don't mean to stomp on your optimism, but leaving aside Wood, how often has a near-100% unproven projected rotation ever come to fruition? I mean, that is rebuilding in the extreme. Even the late-90s Twins had Radke established before adding Milton etc.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I don't think this really explains things. First of all, it's not Ryan's money. And he's well under his budget for spending Pohlad's money. So there's no real "risk" involved in signing second-tier free agents.

 

It should be noted that TR's aversion to risk extends well beyond traditional free agency. He's also never inked a significant international free agent (at least, not before the spending limits were put in place), never went above-slot on a draft choice (again, before the spending caps were adopted), and as much as he was called "Trader Terry" and indeed made some good ones, he has a fairly conservative trade history too -- generally only trading from surplus for modest returns.

 

I'm starting to think it goes beyond risk aversion. I think TR and the Twins staff/ownership in general approach the team almost like a high school or amateur team: we'll do our best to build a team with the players we're given, and we don't mind taking some lumps because that's the cyclical nature of the game. In some ways, it's refreshing compared to the win-at-all-costs attitude, but it's also frustrating when there is obvious talent here (both on the field, as in 2002-2010, and in the front office) but they seemingly limit themselves to only the most basic methods of player acquisition.

[Major League Ready]

I will join you in disagreement but I don’t think purposeful misrepresentation is worthy of the respect you have shown. If a student does not provide credible research it is poor work. Providing a link does not change the fact this was purposefully misleading. This would not be tolerated within a professional environment. To label this a great post is truly sad.

[ThePuck]

One of the greatest posts ever in TD history.

 

There seems to be a lot of confusion over which post you are saying this about...even though you quoted it :-)

[Shane Wahl]

There seems to be a lot of confusion over which post you are saying this about...even though you quoted it :-)

 

Yep. It wasn't yours, Puck, it wasn't yours . . .

[Shane Wahl]

For the record, I would still be happy with Edwin Jackson even in the unlikely scenario that his numbers in Wrigley wouldn't have changed inside TF. I still bet that he is better than Correia next year and certainly better than Pelfrey. And he would be around into the "new era" that is coming someday. I'll eat crow about Shaun Marcum, though.

[Shane Wahl]

A lot of much ado about nothing regarding TP's "deception" here. Maybe if Correia was the 2nd best pitcher and Pelfrey the 3rd best pitcher signed by the Twins last season, there could have been actual hope in those two. Correia performed well for a 4-5 starter. Pelfrey is not good (I wonder how many times I have typed this at TD?).

[Riverbrian]

I read the entire quote from Terry Ryan. I honestly see absolutely nothing wrong with it. Seemed pretty straightforward to me.

 

However, I also didn't see our 60 year old business manager carrying coffee back to her office when I collided with her this morning. We all see different things I guess.

[Shane Wahl]

I read the entire quote from Terry Ryan. I honestly see absolutely nothing wrong with it. Seemed pretty straightforward to me.

 

However, I also didn't see our 60 year old business manager carrying coffee back to her office when I collided with her this morning. We all see different things I guess.

 

Since you're still in good humor I take it that she got burned and not you?

[drivlikejehu]

It should be noted that TR's aversion to risk extends well beyond traditional free agency. He's also never inked a significant international free agent (at least, not before the spending limits were put in place), never went above-slot on a draft choice (again, before the spending caps were adopted), and as much as he was called "Trader Terry" and indeed made some good ones, he has a fairly conservative trade history too -- generally only trading from surplus for modest returns.

 

I'm starting to think it goes beyond risk aversion. I think TR and the Twins staff/ownership in general approach the team almost like a high school or amateur team: we'll do our best to build a team with the players we're given, and we don't mind taking some lumps because that's the cyclical nature of the game. In some ways, it's refreshing compared to the win-at-all-costs attitude, but it's also frustrating when there is obvious talent here (both on the field, as in 2002-2010, and in the front office) but they seemingly limit themselves to only the most basic methods of player acquisition.

 

Technically the Twins have gone over-slot on draft choices, though not at the top of the draft.

 

I think you are right about the Twins' general attitude but I can't characterize it as even partially 'refreshing' because it's just not very smart, while also being a disservice to fans. In this case it's just baseball, but such rigidity and close-mindedness is an ugly thing in the 'real world'.

[ThePuck]

A lot of much ado about nothing regarding TP's "deception" here. Maybe if Correia was the 2nd best pitcher and Pelfrey the 3rd best pitcher signed by the Twins last season, there could have been actual hope in those two. Correia performed well for a 4-5 starter. Pelfrey is not good (I wonder how many times I have typed this at TD?).

 

Serious question (cause I can't remember and I can't look it up right now). After our rotation was really bad in 2011, who did we go out and get to fix it? I remember Marquis, but who else? Starting to wonder if this story shouldn't have mentioned third straight offseason instead of second straight offseason.

[JB_Iowa]

Honestly, I do think that TR is cheap -- and it really doesn't matter that he is spending Pohlad's money and not his own. It is probably (to him) the mere idea of spending it that gives him heartburn.

 

And, you know what, having a few "cheapskates" in your organization is a good thing. Its bad to have people who think that they can (and should) buy anything they want. I'm just not sure that having a real cheapskate at the top of the organization is the best. It depends on how much he can take his boss' words about spending this off-season to heart.

 

I guess we'll see.

[Oxtung]

I think Terry Ryan is not only inherently cheap, he simply doesn't like to take risks, weather on the FA market or making big trades when the team is contending. Even though the Pohlads seem to be giving their blessing to spend some money, I have a hard time believing TR will make a big signing. The Twins have never been in a better position to go after a guy like Tanaka, yet I would be floored if our favorite team was announced as the highest bidders. I don't think Terry Ryan can stand the thought of feeling responsible if, God forbid, a big ticket signing doesn't work out.

 

I have never met Terry Ryan and therefore feel uncomfortable talking about his personality and any traits he may posses. However, I do have an uncle that seems to approach decisions in a similar manner, so I'll write about him and let people draw their own conclusions.

 

My uncle spent his entire career in sales for a nationally recognized shoe brand. He was very good at his job and retired while in his early 40's. He lives in a private community here in the cities where house values are in the 7 figures. Essentially he has enough money that he will never have to worry about affording something.

 

He also has a unique way of looking at the world, it may have been what made him so successful at his job. When he is looking to buy a service or product his first step isn't to look around for the best deal, instead it is to decide what he believes that product or service is worth. How much would it cost for my uncle to do or make it himself? He doesn't care what the going rate is, only what he thinks the value should be. So, when his home owners association set out to contract their landscaping services he had a price in mind that he was looking for. When none of the bids came back as reasonable, in his mind, he told the other home owners that he would take on the landscaping duties himself and told them what his fee would be, which was significantly less than the professionals. So, every summer my cousin and I would find ourselves out landscaping with my uncle because the "pros" didn't meet his price point expectations. Now, that sounds like just being cheap, and I'm not sure that it isn't, but that is only one side of the equation.

 

On the other hand, he will spend when he thinks something meets his price point expectations. One of his first jobs was as a regional sales representative for said shoe brand. He was responsible for North Dakota, South Dakota and Minnesota sales. He needed a vehicle that was capable of getting him around safely, economically and reliably, over long distances. His decision was to buy a brand new Mercedes-Benz. In his low 20's he knew it would be a stretch to afford it, he had to significantly leverage himself those first few years, and had to make sacrifices to make it work. However, at the time Mercedes-Benz were much more reliable than American made vehicles, less time in the shop meant more time selling, it would last much longer (he still owns it today though it doesn't get driven very often), and it was a diesel so it got better gas mileage than all of his other alternatives. So, in the end this seemingly expensive car would meet all of his criteria and, 15 years down the road, be a better deal. It met his price point expectations.

 

Is my uncle cheap? Well, he shops at dollar stores, Wal-Mart, Menards and Costco almost exclusively. He does his own (and his neighbors) landscaping even though it wouldn't scratch his pocketbook to hire a company to do it for him. Hell, he even makes his own stakes for tacking down landscaping cloth because he doesn't feel the options commercially available are of a high enough quality and cost too much.

 

Is my uncle a big spender? Well, he has some very valuable pieces of art work and relics that he has collected from around the world on his travels. One time he paid a company to custom make a shotgun for a lady friend who wanted to try out hunting for the first time. She was left handed, short and slight of frame and nothing commercially available met my uncle's expectations.

 

At times my uncle seems like a miser, at other times he is a spendthrift, but in the end I don't think either description is particularly accurate. He is just a man that views the world through a unique lens and has very strong opinions about the value of things. It has been a blessing and a curse, he is set for life financially and can afford to do anything he wants, yet he doesn't have a wife or children because he drives away those who might love him with his strong ideas and opinions. So that is my uncle. You can take away from that what you wish and make your own determinations if that applies to Mr. Ryan or not.

 

P.S. Sorry this post was so long but I couldn't find a good way to shorten it without compromising the complexities of my uncle.

[nicksaviking]

For the record, I would still be happy with Edwin Jackson even in the unlikely scenario that his numbers in Wrigley wouldn't have changed inside TF. I still bet that he is better than Correia next year and certainly better than Pelfrey. And he would be around into the "new era" that is coming someday. I'll eat crow about Shaun Marcum, though.

 

Don't eat crow about Marcum, lot's of us were interested and he would have been a worthy gamble as he had a reasonable degree of upside. Had the Twins signed him and he failed, I would still be applauding the effort, just as I would if they'd acquired Jackson, Dempster or Haren. But it wouldn't only be like-minded fans who would have appreciated the effort, it would also have been the players on the roster who saw that management was trying to throw them a life-line. It would have been current and future free agents would see that the Twins were serious suitors.

[TheLeviathan]

This discussion isn't about results as nick hints at. This is about what the rational thing to expect was. Ryan's comments are about what he expected before the season. Guys like Marcum, Jackson, and McCarthy didn't have good years - but they all offered vastly superior upside than what we signed.

 

We saw about the best we could expect from our signings....so what exactly did Ryan expect beforehand that he thought they'd make a dramatic difference?

[Riverbrian]

Since you're still in good humor I take it that she got burned and not you?

 

Knocked her flat... She didn't have a chance. Bowled her little body right over... Right to the ground. The coffee ended up staining the wall. She also cleans the building at night for a little extra on her paycheck... so I'm sure she will clean it right up.

 

I learned a few lessons...

 

1. Don't read what you printed off on your way back from the copier

 

2. No matter who was at fault in the collision. Your Co-workers will assume that it wasn't the fault of the 60 year old female lying on the ground.

 

3 Women at that age make a funny sound. It isn't the "Ooof" type sound that you would imagine.

[Riverbrian]

I have never met Terry Ryan and therefore feel uncomfortable talking about his personality and any traits he may posses. However, I do have an uncle that seems to approach decisions in a similar manner, so I'll write about him and let people draw their own conclusions.

 

My uncle spent his entire career in sales for a nationally recognized shoe brand. He was very good at his job and retired while in his early 40's. He lives in a private community here in the cities where house values are in the 7 figures. Essentially he has enough money that he will never have to worry about affording something.

 

He also has a unique way of looking at the world, it may have been what made him so successful at his job. When he is looking to buy a service or product his first step isn't to look around for the best deal, instead it is to decide what he believes that product or service is worth. How much would it cost for my uncle to do or make it himself? He doesn't care what the going rate is, only what he thinks the value should be. So, when his home owners association set out to contract their landscaping services he had a price in mind that he was looking for. When none of the bids came back as reasonable, in his mind, he told the other home owners that he would take on the landscaping duties himself and told them what his fee would be, which was significantly less than the professionals. So, every summer my cousin and I would find ourselves out landscaping with my uncle because the "pros" didn't meet his price point expectations. Now, that sounds like just being cheap, and I'm not sure that it isn't, but that is only one side of the equation.

 

On the other hand, he will spend when he thinks something meets his price point expectations. One of his first jobs was as a regional sales representative for said shoe brand. He was responsible for North Dakota, South Dakota and Minnesota sales. He needed a vehicle that was capable of getting him around safely, economically and reliably, over long distances. His decision was to buy a brand new Mercedes-Benz. In his low 20's he knew it would be a stretch to afford it, he had to significantly leverage himself those first few years, and had to make sacrifices to make it work. However, at the time Mercedes-Benz were much more reliable than American made vehicles, less time in the shop meant more time selling, it would last much longer (he still owns it today though it doesn't get driven very often), and it was a diesel so it got better gas mileage than all of his other alternatives. So, in the end this seemingly expensive car would meet all of his criteria and, 15 years down the road, be a better deal. It met his price point expectations.

 

Is my uncle cheap? Well, he shops at dollar stores, Wal-Mart, Menards and Costco almost exclusively. He does his own (and his neighbors) landscaping even though it wouldn't scratch his pocketbook to hire a company to do it for him. Hell, he even makes his own stakes for tacking down landscaping cloth because he doesn't feel the options commercially available are of a high enough quality and cost too much.

 

Is my uncle a big spender? Well, he has some very valuable pieces of art work and relics that he has collected from around the world on his travels. One time he paid a company to custom make a shotgun for a lady friend who wanted to try out hunting for the first time. She was left handed, short and slight of frame and nothing commercially available met my uncle's expectations.

 

At times my uncle seems like a miser, at other times he is a spendthrift, but in the end I don't think either description is particularly accurate. He is just a man that views the world through a unique lens and has very strong opinions about the value of things. It has been a blessing and a curse, he is set for life financially and can afford to do anything he wants, yet he doesn't have a wife or children because he drives away those who might love him with his strong ideas and opinions. So that is my uncle. You can take away from that what you wish and make your own determinations if that applies to Mr. Ryan or not.

 

P.S. Sorry this post was so long but I couldn't find a good way to shorten it without compromising the complexities of my uncle.

 

Interesting read... Thanks for posting. There is nuance in everyone. Terry Ryan may not be a robot but he does speak awfully monotone.

[Shane Wahl]

This discussion isn't about results as nick hints at. This is about what the rational thing to expect was. Ryan's comments are about what he expected before the season. Guys like Marcum, Jackson, and McCarthy didn't have good years - but they all offered vastly superior upside than what we signed.

 

We saw about the best we could expect from our signings....so what exactly did Ryan expect beforehand that he thought they'd make a dramatic difference?

 

You're right. Definitely. That said, in Marcum's case there were such worries that I thought were exaggerated about his health and I was willing to just ignore them. Now, he could very well be good again going forward.

[Shane Wahl]

Knocked her flat... She didn't have a chance. Bowled her little body right over... Right to the ground. The coffee ended up staining the wall. She also cleans the building at night for a little extra on her paycheck... so I'm sure she will clean it right up.

 

I learned a few lessons...

 

1. Don't read what you printed off on your way back from the copier

 

2. No matter who was at fault in the collision. Your Co-workers will assume that it wasn't the fault of the 60 year old female lying on the ground.

 

3 Women at that age make a funny sound. It isn't the "Ooof" type sound that you would imagine.

 

(No reply to this is even possible)

[Otto von Ballpark]

I have never met Terry Ryan and therefore feel uncomfortable talking about his personality and any traits he may posses. However, I do have an uncle that seems to approach decisions in a similar manner, so I'll write about him and let people draw their own conclusions.

 

Nice post, Oxtung. To tie it back to the Twins:

 

TR wouldn't pay the landscaping companies either, but he also seems more willing to tolerate poor landscaping. What would your uncle do if it turned out he and his no-good nephew were poor landscapers?

 

Also, TR only gets a Mercedes through a police auction or something. In the event it indeed turns out to be a reliable car, he still junks it after the factory maintenance warranty expires.

[Kwak]

Recall: The number of times mentioned that the Twins (Ryan) were complicated as the "way to run a team"; the quote from Moneyball about "...if we win, it will change baseball."; the numerous times the AJ trade has been referenced; GMs have individual goals too--and egos!

 

Recall just before the '08 season that the Twins deemed it a "rebuilding season". Hence, there was no consideration to allocating the Santana and Hunter salaries to new players. Goodness knows the Twins knew they had a big hole at 3B, major holes in the OF, a rotation comprised of rookies and 1-year guys. So, Livan Hernandez was the only FA added! Folks, I believe the real cheapskates are the owners. The new stadium was already approved and design underway--no need to spend on ballplayers to try to repeat earlier success. Ryan is their GM because he wants (craves) the accolades from other GMs on how savvy he runs things on a low budget. It's so sad that Houston and Miami have undercut the Twins so substantially on payroll, that anything less than a World Series will pale in comparision to Houston and Miami on the subject of "running a tight ship". Instead, the Twins are simply viewed as a bad team with an albatross of a contract for one player and millions committed to veterans who won't make a difference.

[Nick Nelson]

Serious question (cause I can't remember and I can't look it up right now). After our rotation was really bad in 2011, who did we go out and get to fix it? I remember Marquis, but who else? Starting to wonder if this story shouldn't have mentioned third straight offseason instead of second straight offseason.

In 2012 they had Liriano, Baker and Pavano all still in the mix, with the slim hope that Blackburn could provide something, so the passive approach was certainly more understandable in that instance. Although it wasn't too tough to see the immense downside of that group.

[ThePuck]

In 2012 they had Liriano, Baker and Pavano all still in the mix, with the slim hope that Blackburn could provide something, so the passive approach was certainly more understandable in that instance. Although it wasn't too tough to see the immense downside of that group.

 

Indeed it wasn't too tough to see...In 2011, Baker pitched like 20 games, Liriano had an ERA over 5.00 and Pavano was 35 with an ERA in the low 4.00s.

 

And shouldn't teams always be looking to improve no matter what? For all the talk about how players won't come to perennial losing teams, this was only our first really bad season after a decade of very good records. Wouldn't that have made it a prime time to improve the 26th ranked rotation in ERA?

[Shane Wahl]

The great paradox is that the best way for the Twins to land one good FA is to land two or three of them . . .

[jokin]

Indeed it wasn't too tough to see...In 2011, Baker pitched like 20 games, Liriano had an ERA over 5.00 and Pavano was 35 with an ERA in the low 4.00s.

 

And shouldn't teams always be looking to improve no matter what? For all the talk about how players won't come to perennial losing teams, this was only our first really bad season after a decade of very good records. Wouldn't that have made it a prime time to improve the 26th ranked rotation in ERA?

 

Shhhh, you're harshing on the Kumbaya meme....we just gotta give Ryan enough time to shut down the remainder of the old floats and scattered horse dung left in the organization from 2011..... and then he'll get the new parade cranked up again, eventually....and honestly, what Twins fan didn't love the 90s (after '91)? Good times waiting for the parade to start was had by one and all......of which I remember most fondly the Twins generous offer of a General Admission 81 game Season Ticket package for $81.....hey, by this gesture at least they tacitly admitted they were offering a AAA product.......good times, indeed.....

[JB_Iowa]

Since the article title is "seeking rotation help for the 2nd straight season" not necessarily impale Terry Ryan, is there anyone on that free agent list that has the potential to provide what Pavano did in 2009-2010?

 

Innings eater, decent stuff, been through the abyss and back, somewhat charismatic with an ability to lead the staff?

 

I've been thinking about this with regard to young pitchers and the need for them to have some veteran leadership in the starting staff (and no, I don't really think this is Correia).

 

I've been looking through the Free Agent lists but that's a lot of sorting out to do. It wasn't that Pavano was a #1 but he was a lot better than anything we've seen recently and I have a gut feeling that he made the other pitchers around him better -- definitely solid in 2010 until the injuries of 2011.

 

I'd be interested in any thoughts anyone might have about someone comparable available through either free agency or trade.