Judging A Rebuild

[Guest USAFChief]

Eduardo Escobar. We can start that low on the totem pole, even he has more of a chance to be a long-term contributor.

 

 

 

Are you advocating Escobar at DH, C, or RF, or did I miss the time Doumit spent at middle infield this year?

 

It's possible you're thinking of Doug Bernier. He is stealing ABs from Eduardo Escobar.

[TheLeviathan]

Are you advocating Escobar at DH, C, or RF, or did I miss the time Doumit spent at middle infield this year?

 

It's possible you're thinking of Doug Bernier. He is stealing ABs from Eduardo Escobar.

 

If Escobar has to play DH, so be it. Otherwise, Parmalee is down in AAA, there's a clear guy he's blocking. Play Escobar at third and put Plouffe's awful glove at DH.

 

Any way you cut it, his putrid defense and his rapidly approaching sub-700 OPS aren't providing anything now or in the future.

[old nurse]

If Escobar has to play DH, so be it. Otherwise, Parmalee is down in AAA, there's a clear guy he's blocking. Play Escobar at third and put Plouffe's awful glove at DH.

 

Any way you cut it, his putrid defense and his rapidly approaching sub-700 OPS aren't providing anything now or in the future.

 

Advocating Eduardo Escobar with a career OPS of .600? I wished I could belive you were joking.

[old nurse]

There really won't be a rebuild until you can identify a number one starter for the team.

[ashbury]

Advocating Eduardo Escobar with a career OPS of .600? I wished I could belive you were joking.

 

He's better than his numbers.

 

(I actually still believe he has potential to give acceptable offense for a middle infielder.)

[jorgenswest]

Who is Doumit taking ABs from?

 

Maybe they give a shot to a minor league free agent. Maybe they make a minor trade for a Gomes or Lobaton. Maybe they go with Hermann. Maybe they give Parmelee a regular shot as a starter with longer stretches in the starting line up. Arguing specifics just distracts from the decision making process.

 

The Twins made the decision to sign Ryan and extend him. That's fine. He is a good guy. Great to have in the clubhouse. It just isn't a decision that is consistent with a rebuilding plan.

 

 

If they were rebuilding, they make a different decision.

[Shane Wahl]

Who is Doumit taking ABs from? Well, Chris Parmelee is down in AAA. That's a start. I don't even understand this question? The answer is obvious. There are others beyond Parmelee. I think the Escobar reference was just to make a point, by the way. There is no value in playing Ryan Doumit. Sorry.

[Shane Wahl]

They aren't rebuilding at all. They sign stop-gap pitchers that can't be traded instead of investing in FAs to keep if successful or to trade for value. There is straight-up cheapskating going on. Full stop. And, on top of that, there seems to be a weird PR thing about trading long-standing players or players who "LOVE" the Twins (Morneau and Doumit, respectively). I still can't get my mind around this Morneau thing. He is a FREE AGENT to be signed by somebody anyway. Yet they won't pay his salary to get some Sulbaran-lite prospect? So they just pay his 2013 salary . . .

[Guest USAFChief]

So far, Doumit is taking ABs from Parmelee, "others beyond Parmelee," Escobar, and "maybe they make a minor trade."

 

I could possibly accept Parmelee, although IMO there are plenty of ABs available for Parmelee, and the person most hurting Parmelee isn't Doumit, it's Parmelee.

 

The rest of that list...well, to be charitable it's rather underwhelming, for something so obvious.

[Shane Wahl]

Doumit has been taking at bats away from Parmelee, Herrmann, Colabello, and Hicks just on a basic level, USAF Chief. Is he actually better than or worth more going forward in the future? CLEARLY, not. Now add in at bats for callus like Pinto, Romero, or Escobar, for example.

 

I don't get your stubbornness about a few different issues. It just seems crazy to me.

[howieramone1406390264]

Doumit is a better player than Parmelee, Herrman, Colabello, Pinto, Romero, and Escobar. It's their job to take away bats from him and not the other way around. None of the 6 are anyway near solidifying their spot with the Twins in the short or long term. Also, at some level the Twins are still trying to win. Pure and simple, Doumit gives us the best chance to win right now, and we are trying to win right now.

 

There is no one way to rebuild. Every single decision made does not need to reflect the teams rebuilding mode, which is in fact quite fluid.

[Alex]

Doumit is a better player than Parmelee, Herrman, Colabello, Pinto, Romero, and Escobar. It's their job to take away bats from him and not the other way around. None of the 6 are anyway near solidifying their spot with the Twins in the short or long term. Also, at some level the Twins are still trying to win. Pure and simple, Doumit gives us the best chance to win right now, and we are trying to win right now.

 

 

I like Doumit from a flexibility standpoint, but, wow, if we really don't have a player that is younger and more likely part of the future that we don't want to give playing time to on a regular basis over his putrid hitting and horrible defense, the Minnesota Twins are in an incredibly bad state.

[old nurse]

I could possibly accept Parmelee, although IMO there are plenty of ABs available for Parmelee, and the person most hurting Parmelee isn't Doumit, it's Parmelee.

 

 

There are other players shuttled back and forth to the minors that the only thing limiting their play at the major league level is themselves. If Collabello or Parmelee produced at a major league level, they could have paid Morneau to go away for a less than C level prospect that is better than their numbers?

[Thrylos]

Doumit is a better player than Parmelee, Herrman, Colabello, Pinto, Romero, and Escobar. It's their job to take away bats from him and not the other way around.

 

Have you seen Pinto and Romero play? Or the above statement is a "gut feeling"?

I cannot see any way that a middle infielder (Escobar) can take playing time from a catcher/DH. He will take time away from Doug Bernier (or is Bernier now a "better player"?)

 

Pure and simple, Doumit gives us the best chance to win right now, and we are trying to win right now.

 

I don't know about "you", but the Twins cannot win this year. They are 19 games behind Detroit with 32 games remaining and there are 2 other teams between them.

 

The only thing they can do is to prepare for the future...

[Alex]

There are other players shuttled back and forth to the minors that the only thing limiting their play at the major league level is themselves. If Collabello or Parmelee produced at a major league level, they could have paid Morneau to go away for a less than C level prospect that is better than their numbers?

 

The fact that we didn't trade Morneau has nothing to do with those players. His level of play has been poor and the Twins didn't want to eat his salary, and thus were asking too much for him by hoping to get anything back.

 

My point is if you really think The Twins are in a position where their best option is to play Doumit in the starting lineup on a regular basis over evaluating a younger player in the majors, the Twins are in an incredibly dire position.

 

Colabello, at least, while having a rough 100 ABs had certainly earned a longer look with the dominance he showed in AAA. More than that, there are other reasons he should be getting as many ABs as possible against major league pitching.

[Alex]

There really won't be a rebuild until you can identify a number one starter for the team.

 

Then we're in for a long wait. Ryan won't spend the money for one and I don't think they'll be willing to give up what it requires -- and neither will the fans if they can't stomach a Sano for Sale type trade that was floated hypothetically in the media last week or something similar.

[TheLeviathan]

Doumit has been taking at bats away from Parmelee, Herrmann, Colabello, and Hicks just on a basic level, USAF Chief. Is he actually better than or worth more going forward in the future? CLEARLY, not. Now add in at bats for callus like Pinto, Romero, or Escobar, for example.

 

I don't get your stubbornness about a few different issues. It just seems crazy to me.

 

Exactly. Escobar was used just as an example of how this team could better adjust itself for the future. Parmelee is a similar hitter but a vastly superior defender and younger.

 

doumit is just wheel-spinning incarnate.

[markos]

John asked, “So how do we judge the Twins rebuilding effort?”. My answer is “What rebuilding effort?”.

 

In my opinion, there is not much "rebuilding effort" to judge. If the beginning of this rebuilding period can be identified as the middle of the 2011 season, then there have been very few moves made in the past 2+ years to accelerate the rebuilding process. In fact, the only move I would consider a “rebuilding” move is the decision to trade both Span AND Revere last season. (My feeling is that even if the Twins were contenders last year they would have tried to move either Span or Revere last offseason, so it doesn’t make sense to credit both trades as “rebuilding moves.”) Contrast the Twins moves (or lack there of) with truly rebuilding teams, like the Cubs or the Astros, and it is very apparent that they aren’t putting much effort into this rebuild. The Cubs have traded away most of their veteran players in exchange for prospects; they have probably added at least a dozen new players into their farm system via trades. Yes, they haven’t acquired many high-end prospects, but they definitely filled in their 5-20 spots in the farm system. Additionally, the Cubs have been more aggressive on the international markets and in the draft.

 

This “rebuild” has just been business as usual for the front office: filling roster holes with inexpensive veterans and minor league callups. Looking ahead, even once the Twins are competitive again, I’m not sure how much credit should go to Terry Ryan for “rebuilding” the team. It is quite likely that much of the core of the next good Twins team will have been acquired PRIOR to the current rebuilding phase (and by Bill Smith!): Arcia, Sano, Rosario, (hopefully) Hicks, Gibson, Kepler, Polanco, et al. Additionally, the talent acquired from recent drafts (Buxton, Berrios, Stewart, et al) didn’t require any special action, just drafting the best player available. I guess it is to Ryan’s credit that he hasn’t traded away Buxton or Sano in search of a quick fix, a la Dayton Moore. But overall, the only action done to actively accelerate the rebuilding process was one trade. That isn't much.

[Guest USAFChief]

Doumit has been taking at bats away from Parmelee, Herrmann, Colabello, and Hicks just on a basic level, USAF Chief. Is he actually better than or worth more going forward in the future? CLEARLY, not. Now add in at bats for callus like Pinto, Romero, or Escobar, for example.

 

I don't get your stubbornness about a few different issues. It just seems crazy to me.

Hicks? LOL. Doumit took zero ABs away from Hicks this year, and will take none away if he stays a Twin for the next 20 years. In fact, if I remember correctly, didn't you spend a couple months telling us Hicks should be in Rochester? Now he should be in the majors catching?

 

i asked a simple question. If its such a no brainier, I should have gotten some pretty good answers, no? When I see them, my "stubbornness" will melt like ice in the Tucson sun.

 

in the bigger picture, I don't agree with your plan for the Twins to get better by getting rid of every proven major leaguer except Mauer. For one thing, IMO that will lengthen the rebuild, not shorten it. For another thing, I believe in buy low, sell high. Doumit brings little value right now, but put up an OPS of .781 as recently as last year. He's a better hitter than his current numbers suggest, and might still be a valuable player going forward, or might actually net something of value in trade next year. If not, so what? He's signed, is currently a better baseball player than internal alternatives, and won't block better alternatives if/when they present themselves.

 

im also of the belief that, if the Twins do this right, there is no reason they should have to wait for 2017 to be relevant again. They could contend as soon as 2014, and Doumit is much more likely to be part of that than Eduardo Escobar or Chris Colabelo.

[old nurse]

Then we're in for a long wait. Ryan won't spend the money for one and I don't think they'll be willing to give up what it requires -- and neither will the fans if they can't stomach a Sano for Sale type trade that was floated hypothetically in the media last week or something similar.

What it takes to get a number one type pitcher would be it's own thread.

[TheLeviathan]

H For another thing, I believe in buy low, sell high. .

 

You got a clear answer: Parmelee. so your argument pretty much ends there. If Doumit had been dealt when he did have value (much like Willingham) we wouldn't have this issue.

 

Poor fielding vets at affordable contracts are easy to recycle in FA as long as you can provide opportunity. We shouldn't be clutching them just because they are vets.

[matthew0211]

Doumit has value on a contending ball club. Just not the way the Twins are using him. He'd be a nice bat off the bench, and an adequate fill-in for Mauer at C or our RF-du-jour against a tough lefty once in a while. He's not an everyday player, and he has no business DH-ing.

[Willihammer]

In the summer teams don't trade a lot of guys who are under contract beyond the current season. They are looking at next week, the pennant race - not planning for next season. So for the Twins to trade one of Doumit or Willingham at this point would probably not gain much return compared to trading either of them this offseason or at this point next season.

 

Incidentally this is why I believe the Twins should be buyers with some of the "rebuilding" clubs. They are in a unique position to be trading for established, contracted talent right now while the better half of the league is preoccupied with the pennant race. After the offseason starts, all clubs will be eyeballing your multi-year players and prices could go up.

 

A team like the Phillies. Ruben Amaro is under a lot of heat right now to go young.

 

Might be a package involving a couple of our young outfielders could bring back a guy like Cole Hamels.

 

Couple that with a Tanaka signing, another 3 or 4 FAs, and the rebuild will finally start getting some legs.

[Shane Wahl]

(I am slamming my head against the wall right now)

 

Not sure what hurts worse, literally doing that, or this conversation.

 

For one, my mentioning of Doumit and Hicks . . . has nothing to do with Hicks playing catcher (it's rather insulting and ridiculous and red herring-throwing that a point gets belittled and you do not bother to in any way interpret what could possibly be meant). Doumit has played right field, has he not? If Doumit were traded away magically in Shane's fantasy (rational) world--with a healthy Mauer and Herrmann--I guarantee you that the callus to replace him start and stop with Chris Parmelee and Aaron Hicks (IMAGINE this: Thomas or Ramirez moves to right to fill Doumit's spot and lo and behold . . . ! Hicks replaces Doumit on the roster by playing CF!!!!

 

--Was that really so difficult, or was it just more fun to make a Hicks-as-catcher comment?

[ThePuck]

'In 2014, if Morneau doesn’t return, the core of Twins with winning backgrounds will be Mauer and … uh… pretty much nobody. I like numbers as much as most of you, but team building is a multidimensional task. Veteran players with skills – in the clubhouse and on the field – need to be part of the build.'

 

Mauer, Morneau, (Pierzynski, Johan) and a bunch of Twins thoughts | A Fan's View | StarTribune.com

[Shane Wahl]

Doumit has value on a contending ball club. Just not the way the Twins are using him. He'd be a nice bat off the bench, and an adequate fill-in for Mauer at C or our RF-du-jour against a tough lefty once in a while. He's not an everyday player, and he has no business DH-ing.

 

This was one of a number of recent rational comments in this thread.

[Mike Sixel]

All Doumit has proven is that he is an awful baseball player.....just go look at the stats. A GM rebuilding a team would never sign a player like that to a 2 year deal.....I really think Ryan and others thought this team was actually going to be competitive. That is an indictment on them, frankly.

[Mike Sixel]

In the summer teams don't trade a lot of guys who are under contract beyond the current season. They are looking at next week, the pennant race - not planning for next season. So for the Twins to trade one of Doumit or Willingham at this point would probably not gain much return compared to trading either of them this offseason or at this point next season.

 

Incidentally this is why I believe the Twins should be buyers with some of the "rebuilding" clubs. They are in a unique position to be trading for established, contracted talent right now while the better half of the league is preoccupied with the pennant race. After the offseason starts, all clubs will be eyeballing your multi-year players and prices could go up.

 

A team like the Phillies. Ruben Amaro is under a lot of heat right now to go young.

 

Might be a package involving a couple of our young outfielders could bring back a guy like Cole Hamels.

 

Couple that with a Tanaka signing, another 3 or 4 FAs, and the rebuild will finally start getting some legs.

 

 

Doumit serves no purpose, what do people think they can trade him for? Just DFA him now, and move onto the future already.

[Shane Wahl]

'In 2014, if Morneau doesn’t return, the core of Twins with winning backgrounds will be Mauer and … uh… pretty much nobody. I like numbers as much as most of you, but team building is a multidimensional task. Veteran players with skills – in the clubhouse and on the field – need to be part of the build.'

 

Mauer, Morneau, (Pierzynski, Johan) and a bunch of Twins thoughts | A Fan's View | StarTribune.com

 

I like the idea of signing Johan even if it ends up meaning he retires as a Twin.

 

Rebuilding does require veterans, yes. That's why the Twins like Ramirez's veteran presence . . . wait, what? Seriously, though, I do think, um, a veteran Latin player might be a good FA pickup for a 25th spot for 2014 and 2015. Probably an OF?

[Willihammer]

Doumit serves no purpose

 

Weren't people saying that about Drew Butera?

 

Part of selling high with Doumit involves waiting. Next year at this time, with only ~1m owed him, he will be a hotter commodity.

 

Dumping an established ML hitter doesn't seem like a great way to manage assets.