Liriano

[Willihammer]

It is not Anderson. Anderson wanted him to abandon the four seamer and just throw the sinker, slider and change. That's basically waht he is doing this year.

 

I am curious how you know this.

 

The other thing that's probably worth mentioning is that Liriano is now throwing to Russell Martin. We can argue how much framing really affects a guy's ERA and IP, but by some measures, Martin has single-handedly taken the Pirates from one of the worst framing teams to one of the best. Coincidentally their pitching staff as a whole has gotten a lot better.

[LimestoneBaggy]

Twins tweaking Liriano's repertoire - Blogs - Minnesota Twins News & Rumors Forum

[cmathewson]

I am curious how you know this.

 

After four years of trying to get this guy straight (and succeeding for one of the four), he was quoted a half a dozen times saying what Liriano needed to do to be successful.

 

A. Stick to the sinker

B. Locate the sinker

C. Locate the change

D. Throw the slider as a strikeout pitch, not a strike pitch

 

Anderson probably told him that stuff hundreds of times. Except for one half of one year, Liriano could not consistently execute on the game plan.

 

I would be interested in seeing your evidence for the framing argument.

[Willihammer]

Twins tweaking Liriano's repertoire - Blogs - Minnesota Twins News & Rumors Forum

 

According to this, Anderson encouraged the exact opposite of what has correlated to his success. 2 seem usage up in 2010 - he's fantastic. Down in 2011 - lousy. Starts 2012 about 1:1 in fastball usage and struggles. Throws a few bullpens using his 4 seemer more, at Anderson's suggestion, and does pretty good. Then he returns to the rotation and went on that pretty awesome mid-summer run - but if you look at the pitchf/x classifications during this time (example), he returned to leaning on his 2 seemer.

 

Then he got traded to Chicago, and for whatever reason goes back to the 4 seemer. Does just okay (example).

 

So I guess I'm still looking for that Rick Anderson quote where he encourages Liriano to use his 2 seemer more and his 4 seemer less. If he said this at press conferences or wh atever, I missed it.

------------------------

 

The framing bit you can read here: All-Star Break Pitch-Framing Update | FanGraphs Baseball

 

It’s interesting when you look at the final column. The second-most-improved team is the Tigers, at plus-eight. Then the Pirates are all the way up there at plus-21, having signed Martin away from the Yankees in free agency even though the Yankees didn’t have a sound backup plan. Martin has singlehandedly turned this from a weakness into a strength.

[cmathewson]

According to this, Anderson encouraged the exact opposite of what has correlated to his success. 2 seem usage up in 2010 - he's fantastic. Down in 2011 - lousy. Starts 2012 about 1:1 in fastball usage and struggles. Throws a few bullpens using his 4 seemer more, at Anderson's suggestion, and does pretty good. Then he returns to the rotation and went on that pretty awesome mid-summer run - but if you look at the pitchf/x classifications during this time (example), he returned to leaning on his 2 seemer.

 

Then he got traded to Chicago, and for whatever reason goes back to the 4 seemer. Does just okay (example).

 

So I guess I'm still looking for that Rick Anderson quote where he encourages Liriano to use his 2 seemer more and his 4 seemer less. If he said this at press conferences or wh atever, I missed it.

------------------------

 

The framing bit you can read here: All-Star Break Pitch-Framing Update | FanGraphs Baseball

 

At this point, as Parker says, Anderson was desperate. He would have loved some consistency out of Liriano with his sinker, but, barring that, he would take any kind of consistency. At any rate, it wasn't long after this was published that Liriano was giving up homers and other extra base hits to teams that figured out his four seamer.

 

The quote itself invalidates the board's impression that Anderson was doctrinarian. He was pragmatic with Liriano. He was all for whatever worked in spring training.

 

There is no one way to pitch. Every pitcher has to make adjustments to be successful. I'm glad Liriano has. He struggled to make some of the same adjustments when he was in a Twins uniform. That's on him more than the pitching coach.

[Willihammer]

At this point, as Parker says, Anderson was desperate. He would have loved some consistency out of Liriano with his sinker, but, barring that, he would take any kind of consistency. At any rate, it wasn't long after this was published that Liriano was giving up homers and other extra base hits to teams that figured out his four seamer.

 

The quote itself invalidates the board's impression that Anderson was doctrinarian. He was pragmatic with Liriano. He was all for whatever worked in spring training.

 

There is no one way to pitch. Every pitcher has to make adjustments to be successful. I'm glad Liriano has. He struggled to make some of the same adjustments when he was in a Twins uniform. That's on him more than the pitching coach.

I agree for the most part. But you have to admit, if there's one area where a coach could really have a direct impact, its pitch selection.

 

Did Anderson and Mauer put plans together pre-game? What were the extent of those plans? From the quote in Parker's article, its hard to tell if Anderson was just being sort of agreeable, in which case you wonder if the Twins appreciated how important using the sinker instead of the 4 seemer might have been for Liriano. I for one am struck by how well that usage has correlated to Liriano's success over the years.

 

Or, was Anderson micromanaging Liriano's pitch selection more than he betrayed in that quote, in which case he may have been, on occassion, mis-micromanaging him? Its a perfectly valid question to ask, I think.

[Guest USAFChief]

After four years of trying to get this guy straight (and succeeding for one of the four), he was quoted a half a dozen times saying what Liriano needed to do to be successful.

 

A. Stick to the sinker

B. Locate the sinker

C. Locate the change

D. Throw the slider as a strikeout pitch, not a strike pitch

 

Anderson probably told him that stuff hundreds of times. Except for one half of one year, Liriano could not consistently execute on the game plan.

 

I would be interested in seeing your evidence for the framing argument.

Can you show us a couple of those quotes?

[launchingthrees]

I agree that Liriano wouldn't have success under Rick Anderson, except for that time when he had success under Rick Anderson in 2010.

 

If this was Anderson's fault, Don Cooper would have gotten something out of Liriano last season but he was awful for the White Sox.

 

 

Is it really so hard to admit that the pitcher himself might be responsible for his performance, both good and bad? Pitching coaches can certainly try to tweak things but they can't go out to the mound and throw for the guy.

 

I will never understand why people have to lay blame for. every. single. thing. that. happens.

 

Well starters as a whole improve drastically when they leave so there's that. You can't have an antiquated system and expect to field competitive pitching.

[big dog]

Well starters as a whole improve drastically when they leave so there's that. You can't have an antiquated system and expect to field competitive pitching.

 

I'm a little mystified by this. Which "starters as a whole" have improved drastically when they leave? Santana? Nope. Liriano didn't improve, he got back to what he had been twice before while a Twin.

 

Slowey was a good Twins starter for a while, a bad starter after he left, and he's probably pitching no worse for Miami now than when he was a Twin.

 

Kyle Lohse? It took him a long time, and a couple of teams, to become more consistent than he was with the Twins.

 

It's fair to say that these pitchers have performed elsewhere at a level as high or even higher than when they were Twins, at least for short periods of time, but I don't think it's fair to say they all improved drastically. Who else do you mean?

[launchingthrees]

I'm a little mystified by this. Which "starters as a whole" have improved drastically when they leave? Santana? Nope. Liriano didn't improve, he got back to what he had been twice before while a Twin.

 

Slowey was a good Twins starter for a while, a bad starter after he left, and he's probably pitching no worse for Miami now than when he was a Twin.

 

Kyle Lohse? It took him a long time, and a couple of teams, to become more consistent than he was with the Twins.

 

It's fair to say that these pitchers have performed elsewhere at a level as high or even higher than when they were Twins, at least for short periods of time, but I don't think it's fair to say they all improved drastically. Who else do you mean?

 

Jason Marquis 3.28 K/9 Twins 7.6 K/9 Padres

Jesse Crain 6.22 K/9 Twins 10.56 K/9 Sox

Kyle Lohse 5.01 K/9 Twins 5.60 K/9 Since traded

RA Dickey 5.88 K/9 Twins 6.83 K/9 Since traded

Kevin Slowey 6.67 K/9 Twins 7.20 K/9 Marlins

Matt Guerrier 5.91 K/9 Twins 6.53 K/9 Dodgers

Matt Garza 7.11 K/9 Twins 7.68 K/9 Since traded

 

Vance Worley 4.62 K/9 Twins 7.71 K/9 Phillies

Kevin Correia 5.04 K/9 Twins 6.04 K/9 before Twins

Mike Pelfrey 4.90 K/9 Twins 5.08 K/9 before Twins

 

 

[big dog]

Jason Marquis 3.28 K/9 Twins 7.6 K/9 Padres

Jesse Crain 6.22 K/9 Twins 10.56 K/9 Sox

Kyle Lohse 5.01 K/9 Twins 5.60 K/9 Since traded

RA Dickey 5.88 K/9 Twins 6.83 K/9 Since traded

Kevin Slowey 6.67 K/9 Twins 7.20 K/9 Marlins

Matt Guerrier 5.91 K/9 Twins 6.53 K/9 Dodgers

Matt Garza 7.11 K/9 Twins 7.68 K/9 Since traded

 

Vance Worley 4.62 K/9 Twins 7.71 K/9 Phillies

Kevin Correia 5.04 K/9 Twins 6.04 K/9 before Twins

Mike Pelfrey 4.90 K/9 Twins 5.08 K/9 before Twins

 

 

 

Your statement was that "starters as a whole improve drastically when they leave the Twins."

 

Crain and Guerrier are relievers. Dickey started exactly one game for the Twins.

 

Why is K/9 your only measure of whether or not a pitcher has improved?

 

Two of the three new guys are coming off surgery, and all three are coming from the National League. Facing pitchers helps the K rate compared to facing DHs, though I don't know the expected amount. Some adjustment is called for when pitchers change leagues.

 

According to Baseball Reference, Lohse pitched 908.1 innings for the Twins, with 561 K's. That works out to 5.56 K/9, virtually the same as his post-Twins career (all of which was in the NL). Garza was a kid who was likely to improve- he had pitched 133 total innings for the Twins. What about Slowey since he left the Twins, not just the last few months? Is a change of 0.5 even statistically significant without factoring in age, league, etc?

 

Jason Marquis, really? You're arguing that the Twins' alleged philosophy had a huge impact for 7 starts on a guy who had made over 250 starts in his career? A guy who wasn't even in spring training? He was barely on the club long enough to learn the name of the clubhouse attendants.

 

You forgot Eric Milton, but he went the opposite direction. We'd all like to forget Carlos Silva, who never struck anyone out anyway. I could argue the Twins gave up too early on Jim Kaat and Jerry Koosman and I'd be right, but it wouldn't be relevant. Pavano improved by 1.1 K/9 his first year with the Twins, then fell apart. Andersen's fault? I doubt it.

 

I don't think the claim that starting pitchers improve when they leave the Twins has very much support, personally. I think the claim that the Twins have had a lot of crappy pitchers is much more plausible. You could also argue that they have given up on a few guys they should have kept, which is certainly true (and true of an awful lot of teams, but no less true here). But I sure don't see a long track record of starters going off to be wildly successful elsewhere.

[jokin]

 

 

But I sure don't see a long track record of starters going off to be wildly successful elsewhere.

 

Some have gone off to be wildly successful (Liriano, Garza, Lohse, Dickey all come to mind), others have gone off to be "mildly successful"....and that's a standard that would qualify as front-end rotation guy on this Twins staff.

[Beezer07]

Some have gone off to be wildly successful (Liriano, Garza, Lohse, Dickey all come to mind), others have gone off to be "mildly successful"....and that's a standard that would qualify as front-end rotation guy on this Twins staff.

 

When are we gonna stop with the "Twins blew it with Dickey" meme? He was terrible for multiple teams, had a good 1 1/2 years with the Mets, and is not performing particularly well this year.

[big dog]

Some have gone off to be wildly successful (Liriano, Garza, Lohse, Dickey all come to mind), others have gone off to be "mildly successful"....and that's a standard that would qualify as front-end rotation guy on this Twins staff.

 

Liriano has been wildly successful for 2 months, something he did in 2 different years for the Twins. He really thrived with the White Sox. Etc. This all comes under finding data to fit a hypothesis rather than testing a hypothesis.

[Willihammer]

Liriano batting in the top of the 8th right now, holding a 1-0 lead over Strasburg, great game!

[RodneyKline]

OK, I'll say it then...We should have kept Liriano. He had more swing and misses than any other starter in MLB last year. Shame on our coaching staff (and the White Sox too) for not figuring how to have a guy with his stuff help the team somehow. I would rather see guys like Liriano and Deduno pitch that can miss bats than all of these hit to contact guys. Boring!

[Guest USAFChief]

Liriano won his 10th tonight with 7.2 innings of 2 hit shutout ball. 8 K's.

[Danchat]

Liriano went 2 and a third innings and gave up 10 runs the other day.

That's the pitcher we all know and love.

[twinsnorth49]

Liriano went 2 and a third innings and gave up 10 runs the other day.

That's the pitcher we all know and love.

 

Unpossible!!

 

I blame Rick Anderson

[COtwin]

Unpossible!!

 

I blame Rick Anderson

 

If he is honest he probably would blame himself a bit. Frankie has 2 clunkers in 17 starts. Even after giving up 10 runs his WHIP is better than any Twins starter, as is his ERA. I would trade half the guys on our rotation to have him back. Rick probably would to.

[snepp]

He only walked 2!

 

[Guest USAFChief]

Liriano in a big game against St Louis tonight: 9 IP, 4 H, 1 BB, 1 R, 6 K. W.

 

Season: 13-5, 2.68.

[Willihammer]

That was such a bummer of a run too. "Wild pitch" on a changeup about 18 inches outside with 2 outs to go.

[Thegrin]

Liriano was a crazy-maker. You have to watch him with your eyes closed to keep your sanity.

 

I love ground balls and double plays. I hate high-ball pitchers like Baker. Strikeouts are fine if they don't lead to elevated pitch counts. Otherwise, they are overrated.

 

The best thing Liriano did was when he sped up his game... but as soon as he hit a rough patch he slowed down again. He was a heart-break waiting to happen last year.

[SpitefulRabbit617]

***Insert Former Twins Pitcher**** moved to NL and is in the running for the Cy Young. Gets Traded to an AL team and new team wonders what happened to their Cy Young award winner. THE DH/no #9pitcher DID, and thats a fact.

[SpitefulRabbit617]

Liriano is like the 10 chick you hookup with once and then you call too much and she flakes on you constantly and you never get over it. Wish him the best and move on.

[snepp]

I finally moved on from Santana and Garza, I figure I've got a good 3 or 4 seasons to go yet on this one.

[jokin]

I finally moved on from Santana and Garza, I figure I've got a good 3 or 4 seasons to go yet on this one.

 

You and me, both, brother. And last night didn't help matters any.

 

Liriano throws 7 shutout innings, 4 H, 13K, only 2BBs. His ERA is down to 2.53. He's made a strong case for a top 5 finish in Cy Young voting.

 

But hey, looking on the bright side, Pedro Hernandez threw 5 innings of shutout ball in AA last night, so there's that.

[AROG]

You and me, both, brother. And last night didn't help matters any.

 

Liriano throws 7 shutout innings, 4 H, 13K, only 2BBs. His ERA is down to 2.53. He's made a strong case for a top 5 finish in Cy Young voting.

 

But hey, looking on the bright side, Pedro Hernandez threw 5 innings of shutout ball in AA last night, so there's that.

 

The bright side, if any, the White Sox don't have anything from Liriano. We got a possible good utility guy and Pedro, what ever he ends up being, and the Sox got nothing.

[Badsmerf]

We got a possible good utility guy and Pedro

Not a chance Pedro is on the 40 man in 2 years.