Blue Jays 5, Twins 4: Twins Bullpen Falters in Loss to Toronto

[BrokenCompass]

14 hours ago, Verified Member said:

I think we have found out who the Twins are, a .500 team that can beat the marginally bad teams and lose to the marginally better teams. With all the flattery regarding the Twins pitching, they just could not hold the lead. That applies to yesterday, today, and tomorrow. The Twins will not be a winning team if they are required to continually comeback from a deficit game after game after game. 

Agreed. The Twins are just an average MLB team - slightly above average pitching, slightly below average hitting. They have trouble closing out winnable games, 

I don't see them making the playoffs, there's just not enough talent or leadership. That said, it's baseball and there are still some interesting things that might happen.

Would be nice to see Bux set a record for games played and see what kind of numbers he puts up. Would be nice to see Joe Ryan take that next step and get some Cy Young votes. Would be nice to see Lewis start raking again and put up 20+ HRs and solidify the cleanup spot. Maybe the Twins will deal Larnach or something at the break. 

In short, I don't mind if the Twins are average or even below average. Just so long as they're not boring while they're at it. 

[Doctor Gast]

22 hours ago, William K Johnson said:

Anyone know how you get that Heilman guy out?   A backup catcher batting over .400

TOR knows how to develop catchers. I've looked at TOR to see if they had a catcher available to obtain. Early, I looked at Heineman, but was not impressed. Looking at him now with a .429/.441/.625/1.066 statline is pretty impressive.

 

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, Doctor Gast said:

TOR knows how to develop catchers. I've looked at TOR to see if they had a catcher available to obtain. Early, I looked at Heineman, but was not impressed. Looking at him now with a .429/.441/.625/1.066 statline is pretty impressive.

 

Tyler Heineman is nearly 34 years old and has played for 10 different organizations. The Toronto Blue Jays did not develop Tyler Heineman. How early did you "look at Heineman?" 2012-2016 when he was developing in Houston's system? 2017-2018 when he was developing in Milwaukee's system? Or any time since then when he's bounced around between Arizona, Miami, San Fran, Philly, St Louis, Toronto, Pittsburgh, Toronto again, Boston, and back to Toronto?

That stat line comes in a whopping 59 plate appearances. It is quite impressive. For 59 plate appearances. But the likelihood of him sustaining anywhere near those numbers is awfully low. Good for him and Toronto if he does, though. Good for Popkins, too. He's getting a little redemption this year against everyone who says it was him and his philosophy that ruined the Twins hitters. 

But back to the Heineman point. Toronto didn't develop him. He'd already played in the majors for 2 teams before Toronto ever signed him. And he's played for 2 others in between stints with the Blue Jays. He's having an incredible start to the season, but he isn't proof of any great Toronto catcher development system. He was 31 years old before he joined their organization. And they let him walk away twice. He's just a journeyman veteran catcher on a 59 PA heater.

[Bodie]

17 hours ago, BrokenCompass said:

"Twins Bullpen Falters" ? 

"Griffen Jax blew it again" is a much more accurate headline. 

C'mon...

Let me paraphrase the replies when I have recently mentioned Jax after some of his disappointing outings.

Take away just a few bad outings , and Griffin Jax is elite. In fact he is elite, period. His start of the season was an aberration. His stuff is elite, ergo he is elite (repeated ad infinitum).

 

[LambchoP]

This season pitching has been our strength and kept us in a lot of close ballgames. Our SP depth is about to be really tested though. With Zebby and Pablo out and no AAA pitchers looking that great this year, I don't think we can count on our rotation to win us tons of games anymore. This means our weak ass offense needs to find a way to start scoring some runs. Deadline time we should be looking for a SP and a strong bat, no matter the position. That is if ownership decides to go for it, which I don't see happening.

[JD-TWINS]

18 hours ago, BrokenCompass said:

"Twins Bullpen Falters" ? 

"Griffen Jax blew it again" is a much more accurate headline. 

Duran gave up one run - Twins lose by one run. Seems the “bullpen faltered” to me.

[JD-TWINS]

18 hours ago, thelanges5 said:

Gleeman skeet:

Chris Paddack has a 2.25 ERA in his last 11 starts, yet the Twins are 3-8 in those games.

Twins' lineup has scored an average of just 2.3 runs in those last 11 games started by Paddack.

2nd coming of Sonny Gray……2023.

[JD-TWINS]

18 hours ago, Verified Member said:

Tomorrow is get away day. Hopefully the Twins can salvage one, lone victory from the Blue Jays during this homestand. But I am not counting on it.

“Getaway day” typically implies (denotes) travel coming……Twins have Monday off and play series Tuesday - Thursday at home v. Rangers.

[David Maro]

You are now watching the real Twins team play. This team can't get out of its own way. It's back to the same old Twins bases loaded and can't even hit a sacrifice fly. Now the SP are dropping like flies. Players like C4 and Lewis can't seem to do anything at the plate. All the talk about Clemens,yes playing a good 2nd base but only swinging for the fences. Wallner poor effort in RF shows he should be DH only but no a manager who will run him out to RF again and again. This team is ready to fall in the standing and out of the Wild card.

[JD-TWINS]

17 hours ago, Blyleven2011 said:

I've made statements that we will know the real identity of the twins by the end of June  , sadly we just might not have to wait till then ... 

Pitchers , there out there to succeed in getting batters out , regardless of how many runners they put on base ...

Batters are to get on base and make adjustments and succeed driving in ducks on the pond  ( runs ) ...

Manager : 

The twins identity is they have a manager that should be given a pink slip , but continues to be at the helm and has job security , he has no worries about being let go because falvey and baldelli are joined at the hip ...

The twins pitchers failed late and the Toronto hitters succeeded in driving in runs ...

The toronto pitchers succeeded and twins batters just plain failed , I think they failed twice with the bases loaded today  ...

The identity is coming into focus , I was hoping that the Twins batters would be the players that played in May  , not the players that played in April ...

Time for this pohlad job security to change , I've stated for years that we will never win with baldelli  managing  , he can't get his players to play a game of baseball the way it should be played and these players should be much better if they were only managed with better discipline ... 

I get it - because there are so many disciplinarian Managers - real hard asses in the game today. Not! Gotta get out of 1976. Managers today coddle above average players, essentially across every sport……particularly in baseball. Our Utility guy makes more than the Manager does and because of the income/power disparity the players generally do what they will and it may occasionally draw “a discussion with the Manager” ……. there’s no Jim Leland or Tony LaRussa or Dick Williams or Lou Piniella or Tom Kelly walking in the door at Target nor in any other stadium in MLB. Sure, there are different cultures and different organizations have varying levels of accountability but I don’t think there’s a disciplinarian Mgr. in the game any longer.

Problems w/star in Atlanta - Problems w/star & Mets - Bochte is probably as close as it gets and he gets respect due to 4 Series Wins - that buys a lot!

Seldom do Teams move runners along with hit & run (maybe 3-4 in the game) nor does anyone bunt to get on base nor do pitchers throw into the 7th or 8th routinely, if ever, nor do guys get benched or chewed out when they don’t hustle or make basic base-running mistakes or throw to the wrong base or miss a cutoff man, It’s a different day and has been for some time. Not going back……,It’s not a “Twin’s thing”.

Rocco isn’t throwing the ball when Jax is in the game - Rocco’s not giving up an insurance run for the opponent in the 9th, that’s Duran - Rocco’s not the guy that’s not coming through (repeatedly) w/RISP……..players have to perform and to think that something the Manager has to “say” or his “demeanor” is going to elevate a player’s ability to hit a baseball or command a pitch is nuts, IMO.

[Schmoeman5]

4 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

Toronto had good pitching, played much better defense, got clutch hitting & good chemistry. Formula for winning close games, something that the Twins are lacking now. Hitting solo HRs & sac. flies don't sustain rallies. Hitting solo HRs might look good on paper by bolstering stats but they're not enough to win games.

So the new ingredient for success is chemistry. I would've thought it would be physics.

[Schmoeman5]

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Tyler Heineman is nearly 34 years old and has played for 10 different organizations. The Toronto Blue Jays did not develop Tyler Heineman. How early did you "look at Heineman?" 2012-2016 when he was developing in Houston's system? 2017-2018 when he was developing in Milwaukee's system? Or any time since then when he's bounced around between Arizona, Miami, San Fran, Philly, St Louis, Toronto, Pittsburgh, Toronto again, Boston, and back to Toronto?

That stat line comes in a whopping 59 plate appearances. It is quite impressive. For 59 plate appearances. But the likelihood of him sustaining anywhere near those numbers is awfully low. Good for him and Toronto if he does, though. Good for Popkins, too. He's getting a little redemption this year against everyone who says it was him and his philosophy that ruined the Twins hitters. 

But back to the Heineman point. Toronto didn't develop him. He'd already played in the majors for 2 teams before Toronto ever signed him. And he's played for 2 others in between stints with the Blue Jays. He's having an incredible start to the season, but he isn't proof of any great Toronto catcher development system. He was 31 years old before he joined their organization. And they let him walk away twice. He's just a journeyman veteran catcher on a 59 PA heater.

Are you questioning the Dr in regards to catching? Oh and chemistry to go along with core and mismanagement.

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, Bodie said:

C'mon...

Let me paraphrase the replies when I have recently mentioned Jax after some of his disappointing outings.

Take away just a few bad outings , and Griffin Jax is elite. In fact he is elite, period. His start of the season was an aberration. His stuff is elite, ergo he is elite (repeated ad infinitum).

 

Recently is the key word here. Again, Griffin Jax gave up 2 runs. 2. In the entire month of May. 14 appearances. You just choose to ignore the 12 scoreless outings and only pop up for the 2 where he gave up singular runs and say "see, he's struggling!" You don't have to take away a few bad outings. Nobody is asking you to do that. We fully acknowledge his blowup games. He had 2 of them. Back to back. What we are saying is that those weren't recent. Your use of the present tense when speaking about him actively struggling is what we disagree with.

His ERA since those games? 2.25. 1.32 FIP. 35 Ks in 20 innings. Yes, he gave up a 2 run homer yesterday. It's a bummer. His blowup games were nearly 2 months ago. It's time to get over them. He isn't struggling. He just isn't completely perfect.

[Schmoeman5]

3 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

TOR knows how to develop catchers. I've looked at TOR to see if they had a catcher available to obtain. Early, I looked at Heineman, but was not impressed. Looking at him now with a .429/.441/.625/1.066 statline is pretty impressive.

 

You weren't impressed the 1st time because his stat line looked nothing like that. That's how you can tell?I've got a catcher who would come cheap. 28 year old Willie Maciver. Guys been bouncing around the minors for 7 years. I honestly believe he's better than Vasquez or Jeffers. If you're going to take a flyer, then go all in. 

[Mike Sixel]

Rocco manages just like people so him to this game, people ask for him to be fired. 

Other teams also have players. They are human. Sometimes things won't go well for the Twins. Doesn't make them bad. 

They are what we thought they were. Average. I'm not sure how this gets fixed any time soon.....

[Doctor Gast]

5 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Tyler Heineman is nearly 34 years old and has played for 10 different organizations. The Toronto Blue Jays did not develop Tyler Heineman. How early did you "look at Heineman?" 2012-2016 when he was developing in Houston's system? 2017-2018 when he was developing in Milwaukee's system? Or any time since then when he's bounced around between Arizona, Miami, San Fran, Philly, St Louis, Toronto, Pittsburgh, Toronto again, Boston, and back to Toronto?

That stat line comes in a whopping 59 plate appearances. It is quite impressive. For 59 plate appearances. But the likelihood of him sustaining anywhere near those numbers is awfully low. Good for him and Toronto if he does, though. Good for Popkins, too. He's getting a little redemption this year against everyone who says it was him and his philosophy that ruined the Twins hitters. 

But back to the Heineman point. Toronto didn't develop him. He'd already played in the majors for 2 teams before Toronto ever signed him. And he's played for 2 others in between stints with the Blue Jays. He's having an incredible start to the season, but he isn't proof of any great Toronto catcher development system. He was 31 years old before he joined their organization. And they let him walk away twice. He's just a journeyman veteran catcher on a 59 PA heater.

I stated that Toronto knows how to develop catchers & that's why I check them out period. I didn't say Toronto developed Heineman. I know he's 34 & has bounced around. Neither have I said the Twins should target him. I know it's a small test sample, but still it's impressive. & I agree that you can give credit to Popkins for Heineman's newfound hitting success. It'll be interesting to see how much he can sustain it.