Vikings Offseason Thread

[nicksaviking]

12 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

RB I’m interested in: Frank Gore Jr, D’Onta Freeman, and Semajai Perine (sp?) 

I’m good with either a rookie shooting for upside, or a veteran guy who is good at pass protection 

Ugh, or I guess they re-sign Myles Gaskin to the practice squad. What is their obsession with him? This is like the third time they've signed/cut/re-signed him.

[Danchat]

No waiver claims for the Vikings, they only lost Nwangwu to the Saints on waivers. Practice squads will fill up now, I suspect they add another RB. Could be to the PS to start and promote him to the 53 man later.

59 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

I guess they re-sign Myles Gaskin to the practice squad.

Yup, they already have. He and McCain are the two confirmed PS names right now.

[Vanimal46]

Bo Richter is back on the PS. He had a lot of positive press about him in camp. Glad he’s back. 

[Mike Sixel]

Cine joins the Jets. If he's on the roster for London, that would be really weird. 

[Cap'n Piranha]

Here are all the draft picks from the Kwesi era, and their current status.  In 3 drafts, assuming no injuries or deaths, Kwesi has drafted 4 surefire starters (Nailor, Addison, Blackmon, Reichard), and 3 pseudo starters (McCarthy, Turner, Evans).  That means if you consider a team needs 24 starters (11 offense, 11 defense, 2 specialists), and 5 pseudo starters (2nd RB, 4th WR, 2nd TE, 3rd OLB, 3rd CB) for a total of 29 "1st string players", it would take Kwesi 12 drafts to fill each of those slots.  Since the average NFL career is nowhere near 12 years, that means Kwesi's roster is dramatically short of talent every year, forcing him to sign free agents just to round out the roster, and not actually fill holes.  Because he's forced to fill significant chunks of his roster with FAs, he will have less money to actually retain any of his drafted players that find success.  2024 needs to be the year that gets Kwesi fired, before things get truly bad.

2022

• 1st--Lewis Cine--cut
• 2nd--Andrew Booth Jr--traded (the player acquired was cut)
• 2nd--Ed Ingram--starter (only because the preferred starter in on IR)
• 3rd--Brian Asamoah--backup
• 4th--Akayleb Evans--backup
• 5th--Esezi Otemewo--cut
• 5th--Ty Chandler--backup
• 6th--Vederian Lowe--traded
• 6th--Jalen Nailor--starter
• 7th--Nick Muse--backup

2023

• 1st--Jordan Addison--starter
• 3rd--Mekhi Blackmon--IR (presumed starter)
• 4th--Jay Ward--backup
• 5th--Jaquelin Roy--cut
• 5th--Jaren Hall--backup
• 7th--DeWayne McBride--cut

2024

• 1st--JJ McCarthy--IR (presumed backup)
• 1st--Dallas Turner--backup
• 4th--Khyree Jackson--tragically deceased
• 6th--Walter Rouse--backup
• 6th--Will Reichard--starter
• 7th--Michael Jurgens--backup
• 7th--LDR--backup

[gunnarthor]

The Kwesi hate is really weird to me. It's been two seasons, he's cleared a ton of payroll, hired some dang good coaches and we've gone 20-14. We have the proverbial "QB of the future" and Jefferson locked up. It's an exciting team. And, frankly, the team seems to have an identity it didn't really have under Zimmer/Spielman. I think the KOC/Flores combo is fantastic and we haven't seen reports that suggest the coaching staff and FO aren't on the same page. All of those guys are relatively young for their jobs but they all seem to be growing into it really well.

[Vanimal46]

10 hours ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

Here are all the draft picks from the Kwesi era, and their current status.  In 3 drafts, assuming no injuries or deaths, Kwesi has drafted 4 surefire starters (Nailor, Addison, Blackmon, Reichard), and 3 pseudo starters (McCarthy, Turner, Evans).  That means if you consider a team needs 24 starters (11 offense, 11 defense, 2 specialists), and 5 pseudo starters (2nd RB, 4th WR, 2nd TE, 3rd OLB, 3rd CB) for a total of 29 "1st string players", it would take Kwesi 12 drafts to fill each of those slots.  Since the average NFL career is nowhere near 12 years, that means Kwesi's roster is dramatically short of talent every year, forcing him to sign free agents just to round out the roster, and not actually fill holes.  Because he's forced to fill significant chunks of his roster with FAs, he will have less money to actually retain any of his drafted players that find success.  2024 needs to be the year that gets Kwesi fired, before things get truly bad.

2022

• 1st--Lewis Cine--cut
• 2nd--Andrew Booth Jr--traded (the player acquired was cut)
• 2nd--Ed Ingram--starter (only because the preferred starter in on IR)
• 3rd--Brian Asamoah--backup
• 4th--Akayleb Evans--backup
• 5th--Esezi Otemewo--cut
• 5th--Ty Chandler--backup
• 6th--Vederian Lowe--traded
• 6th--Jalen Nailor--starter
• 7th--Nick Muse--backup

2023

• 1st--Jordan Addison--starter
• 3rd--Mekhi Blackmon--IR (presumed starter)
• 4th--Jay Ward--backup
• 5th--Jaquelin Roy--cut
• 5th--Jaren Hall--backup
• 7th--DeWayne McBride--cut

2024

• 1st--JJ McCarthy--IR (presumed backup)
• 1st--Dallas Turner--backup
• 4th--Khyree Jackson--tragically deceased
• 6th--Walter Rouse--backup
• 6th--Will Reichard--starter
• 7th--Michael Jurgens--backup
• 7th--LDR--backup

Alright, you’ve done the research. How does this compare to other GMs in the league? Because I can point out a couple other teams that have done worse since 2020. 

Why are you ignoring the UDFAs in your evaluation? The Vikings hit on Ivan Pace Jr in 2023 and that can’t be ignored. This year looks pretty good as well with 3 undrafted rookies making the 53 (McGlothern, Murphy, Taimani)

[Vanimal46]

The 2022 draft was a disaster. There’s no question about it. But that was a very short lived era with Ed Donatell as DC who had a completely different scheme than Flores. Kwesi isn’t a scout and didn’t come from a scouting background. In 2022 he was stuck with Spielman’s leftover scouts and there have been changes since then. 

[nicksaviking]

9 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

Alright, you’ve done the research. How does this compare to other GMs in the league? Because I can point out a couple other teams that have done worse since 2020. 

Why are you ignoring the UDFAs in your evaluation? The Vikings hit on Ivan Pace Jr in 2023 and that can’t be ignored. This year looks pretty good as well with 3 undrafted rookies making the 53 (McGlothern, Murphy, Taimani)

Because the Vikings didn't choose Pace, Pace choose the Vikings. He was the top UDFA that year and he came to the Vikings because they had the worst LB group in the league. It was easily the best place for him to score a job.

I don't hate Adofo-Mensah, but I don't agree with his roster building. If this team is supposed to be taking a step back this year, why are they still the 7th oldest in the league?

 https://bookies.com/nfl/picks/nfl-teams-average-age

With the Vikings front office, it's really a similar argument as the Twins. Way too reliant on average-at-best veteran players and they either won't, or can't get enough young affordable high-ceiling players to build a sustainable contender.

The 2024 draft was much better, so if things drastically change soon, I'm OK counting the last two years as a learning curve error or ownership meddling. But they really have to start building through the draft not free agency. I'll give it until next year before I suggest we need to do something new.

[nicksaviking]

Cut Hall and sign Brett Rypien. OK, well why?

https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/vikings-will-waive-jaren-hall-sign-brett-rypien

If Rypien plays, your season is over. This is the kind of pointless move this team keeps making that I really dislike. 

[Mike Sixel]

10 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

The Kwesi hate is really weird to me. It's been two seasons, he's cleared a ton of payroll, hired some dang good coaches and we've gone 20-14. We have the proverbial "QB of the future" and Jefferson locked up. It's an exciting team. And, frankly, the team seems to have an identity it didn't really have under Zimmer/Spielman. I think the KOC/Flores combo is fantastic and we haven't seen reports that suggest the coaching staff and FO aren't on the same page. All of those guys are relatively young for their jobs but they all seem to be growing into it really well.

Agreed. Ready to fire a guy after two drafts. Unreal. 

[Mike Sixel]

2 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Cut Hall and sign Brett Rypien. OK, well why?

https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/vikings-will-waive-jaren-hall-sign-brett-rypien

If Rypien plays, your season is over. This is the kind of pointless move this team keeps making that I really dislike. 

Agreed on this!

[Mike Sixel]

Unless Hall is really hurt and goes on IR or something 

[gunnarthor]

1 hour ago, nicksaviking said:

Cut Hall and sign Brett Rypien. OK, well why?

https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/vikings-will-waive-jaren-hall-sign-brett-rypien

If Rypien plays, your season is over. This is the kind of pointless move this team keeps making that I really dislike. 

I only saw the last pre-season game but I didn't think Hall looked that good. His INT was called back but was a horrific throw. The announcers pointed out a few times that he held the ball too long. He's been here a while now and, other than a few streaks, really hasn't looked like he could be a better back up than Mullins.

Second, I wonder if there was some gamesmanship here in getting a QB from Chicago? Getting some insight on the QB room, styles, etc?

[Mike Sixel]

5 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

I only saw the last pre-season game but I didn't think Hall looked that good. His INT was called back but was a horrific throw. The announcers pointed out a few times that he held the ball too long. He's been here a while now and, other than a few streaks, really hasn't looked like he could be a better back up than Mullins.

Second, I wonder if there was some gamesmanship here in getting a QB from Chicago? Getting some insight on the QB room, styles, etc?

He's been in Minnesota one year, and more than a bit of that time he was hurt. I'm not saying keep him, but he's not Mullens.... He's basically a rookie. I do think this could be about running the scout team

[Mike Sixel]

On 8/28/2024 at 10:42 AM, Mike Sixel said:

Cine joins the Jets. If he's on the roster for London, that would be really weird. 

Changed his mind....onto Buffalo instead. Maybe he didn't want to go back to London!

[Vanimal46]

3 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

Because the Vikings didn't choose Pace, Pace choose the Vikings. He was the top UDFA that year and he came to the Vikings because they had the worst LB group in the league. It was easily the best place for him to score a job

The Vikings offered the most money and the opportunity to play. So who gets credit when UDFAs work out? I don’t understand how that’s not included in the evaluation of a GM. 

 

3 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

I don't hate Adofo-Mensah, but I don't agree with his roster building. If this team is supposed to be taking a step back this year, why are they still the 7th oldest in the league

Because we signed 3 old CBs to replace a rookie that died and a 2nd year player who tore his ACL. The team is young at WR, OT, DL, and Edge. 

[Vanimal46]

The Vikings have spent more money for UDFAs under Kwesi than any point with Spielman. So that is clearly a strategy to find talent that slipped through the cracks in the draft. 

[Mike Sixel]

14 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

The Vikings offered the most money and the opportunity to play. So who gets credit when UDFAs work out? I don’t understand how that’s not included in the evaluation of a GM. 

 

Because we signed 3 old CBs to replace a rookie that died and a 2nd year player who tore his ACL. The team is young at WR, OT, DL, and Edge. 

They're less than a year from being in the mid-20s in terms of age. It's not like they are so much older than other teams. 

I also am dumbfounded that UDFA just randomly come to a team, and the GM has nothing to do with it.....just random I guess.

[nicksaviking]

2 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

The Vikings offered the most money and the opportunity to play. So who gets credit when UDFAs work out? I don’t understand how that’s not included in the evaluation of a GM. 

 

Because we signed 3 old CBs to replace a rookie that died and a 2nd year player who tore his ACL. The team is young at WR, OT, DL, and Edge. 

The DB situation is unfortunate, but they signed a half dozen LB/Edge/DL guys before all that happened, then cut a bunch of young guys in the last several weeks. I mean, why is Harrison Smith, who will be here for one more meaningless season on the team instead of Lewis Cine? Cine will probably never amount to anything, but there's a better chance he's relevant in four years than Smith. Same argument with Rypien and Hall and Gaskin and any of the numerous RBs out there that are 25 and under.

I just don't like this fence straddling 'rebuild' approach as it seems like they're more interested in winning 9 games and saving their jobs than they are in building a sustainable contender. It's the same thing with holding on to all the vets until their contracts are up instead of trading them when you have no chance to truly contend. I get why the GM would want this, but I personally don't care for it. 

[Mike Sixel]

3 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

The DB situation is unfortunate, but they signed a half dozen LB/Edge/DL guys before all that happened, then cut a bunch of young guys in the last several weeks. I mean, why is Harrison Smith, who will be here for one more meaningless season on the team instead of Lewis Cine? Cine will probably never amount to anything, but there's a better chance he's relevant in four years than Smith. Same argument with Rypien and Hall and Gaskin and any of the numerous RBs out there that are 25 and under.

I just don't like this fence straddling 'rebuild' approach as it seems like they're more interested in winning 9 games and saving their jobs than they are in building a sustainable contender. It's the same thing with holding on to all the vets until their contracts are up instead of trading them when you have no chance to truly contend. I get why the GM would want this, but I personally don't care for it. 

Pretty sure the owners said they wanted a competitive rebuild, not a blow up of the team.

I mean, I'm with you on Harrison, but not on Cine. Apparently Gaskin is in MN for KO returns, though I'd prefer a younger guy there also, does it really matter at all? 

They kept those young OLBs on the practice squad, I'd bet good money if they look good they'll play (and there will be injuries). 

Hall is 2 years younger than Rypien, though I'm guessing age isn't your point there? 

[Mike Sixel]

Appreciate our polite disagreement here......refreshing compared to the Twins' sections...

[nicksaviking]

1 minute ago, Mike Sixel said:

Pretty sure the owners said they wanted a competitive rebuild, not a blow up of the team.

I mean, I'm with you on Harrison, but not on Cine. Apparently Gaskin is in MN for KO returns, though I'd prefer a younger guy there also, does it really matter at all? 

They kept those young OLBs on the practice squad, I'd bet good money if they look good they'll play (and there will be injuries). 

Hall is 2 years younger than Rypien, though I'm guessing age isn't your point there? 

Yeah, I had given the GM a pass for awhile considering the last draft was completely different than the first two. And maybe it's still on ownership and not the GM, I just don't like this strategy. I'd rather stink with the slightest whiff of potential instead of desperately trying to be mediocre. And yeah, my thing is that Hall probably has no potential, but Rypien absolutely has no potential. And if not Hall, there were other young QBs they could have grabbed instead.

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, nicksaviking said:

Yeah, I had given the GM a pass for awhile considering the last draft was completely different than the first two. And maybe it's still on ownership and not the GM, I just don't like this strategy. I'd rather stink with the slightest whiff of potential instead of desperately trying to be mediocre. And yeah, my thing is that Hall probably has no potential, but Rypien absolutely has no potential. And if not Hall, there were other young QBs they could have grabbed instead.

In general we agree.....but that first draft hurt the ability to be younger. I'm relatively confident things are better now....but losing McCarthy for a year really hurts. 

[Cap'n Piranha]

16 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

The Kwesi hate is really weird to me. It's been two seasons, he's cleared a ton of payroll, hired some dang good coaches and we've gone 20-14. We have the proverbial "QB of the future" and Jefferson locked up. It's an exciting team. And, frankly, the team seems to have an identity it didn't really have under Zimmer/Spielman. I think the KOC/Flores combo is fantastic and we haven't seen reports that suggest the coaching staff and FO aren't on the same page. All of those guys are relatively young for their jobs but they all seem to be growing into it really well.

The 20-14 includes a 13-4 season with almost entirely the previous regime's players (since his first draft was atrocious from jump), and a DC that was almost universally hated and considered bad at his job--they weren't 13-4 because Kwesi was good, they were 13-4 because they were far and away the luckiest NFL team of all-time.  Going into last year, the Panthers had their "QB of the Future" locked up--how'd that work out?  How about the Jets with Wilson, the Pats with Jones, the Steelers with Pickett, the Niners with Lance, or the Bears with Fields?  That's 5 teams in just the last 3 years that spent a first rounder on QB that hasn't worked out.  I hope McCarthy is a 15 year player for the Vikes, and wins multiple MVPs and Superbowls, but it's ridiculous to assume he's destined to be the answer, when his 50th percentile outcome is Daniel Jones.

[Cap'n Piranha]

16 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

Alright, you’ve done the research. How does this compare to other GMs in the league? Because I can point out a couple other teams that have done worse since 2020. 

Why are you ignoring the UDFAs in your evaluation? The Vikings hit on Ivan Pace Jr in 2023 and that can’t be ignored. This year looks pretty good as well with 3 undrafted rookies making the 53 (McGlothern, Murphy, Taimani)

Not sure, as I didn't do the research on any other times (my time is finite).  That said, point me to these other teams--are they regularly winning playoff games?

I'm ignoring UDFAs because if Kwesi truly thought Pace was going to be as good as he was, he would have drafted him, not hoped Pace would agree to sign with the Vikings.  The fact that in the past 2 seasons 4 UDFAs have been able to make the 53 man roster is simply another indictment of Kwesi's complete inability to draft at even an acceptable level, let alone a championship-caliber level.

[gunnarthor]

24 minutes ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

The 20-14 includes a 13-4 season with almost entirely the previous regime's players (since his first draft was atrocious from jump), and a DC that was almost universally hated and considered bad at his job--they weren't 13-4 because Kwesi was good, they were 13-4 because they were far and away the luckiest NFL team of all-time.  Going into last year, the Panthers had their "QB of the Future" locked up--how'd that work out?  How about the Jets with Wilson, the Pats with Jones, the Steelers with Pickett, the Niners with Lance, or the Bears with Fields?  That's 5 teams in just the last 3 years that spent a first rounder on QB that hasn't worked out.  I hope McCarthy is a 15 year player for the Vikes, and wins multiple MVPs and Superbowls, but it's ridiculous to assume he's destined to be the answer, when his 50th percentile outcome is Daniel Jones.

This is ridiculous. The 13-4 team was lucky, sure, the 7-10 team was extremely unlucky and snake bit by injuries.

I like the changes the new administration has put in place. We've moved on from Cousins and his massive contract. We've got two decent anchors in the o-line and depth in the interior. We have a top five receiving corp and have both JJ and Hockinson locked up while still having massive payroll flexibility the next few years. Defensively, we've added a lot of depth at LB/edge/DL. We might have a kicker who won't cause us all to pray on every point-after attempt.

I don't know why folks are sour on Kwesi, the draft complaints don't make sense, especially when you're ignoring all the other ways to build this team.

This team has a brutal schedule but it's easy to see how the team will play - on offense, KOC will hope that Darnold can replicate some of Mullins stats and push the ball downfield, playing to his strengths, while using Jones to keep defenses honest (something Mattison couldn't do). The defense is going to be blitz happy again, attacking the QB from multiple angles. Some weeks, we're going to look really, really good when everything breaks right and other weeks not so well but it's not hard to see the team has been constructed and coached well.

[Vanimal46]

1 hour ago, nicksaviking said:

I mean, why is Harrison Smith, who will be here for one more meaningless season on the team instead of Lewis Cine?

You can’t be serious, can you? Harrison Smith is an instant ring of honor player for the Vikings once he retires. I understand what you’re saying but this is a really bad example. 

[Vanimal46]

36 minutes ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

Not sure, as I didn't do the research on any other times (my time is finite).  That said, point me to these other teams--are they regularly winning playoff games?

I implore you to look at Las Vegas Raiders draft history since 2020. 

Not counting UDFAs in an evaluation of a GM is bizarre. Isn’t the point, like baseball, to find the best talent using every option you have?

[TheLeviathan]

Ownership demanded this FO not set fire to the roster and tear down.  I would bet my house that Kwesi would've traded Cousins if he wasn't shackled to him.  

The first draft was really terrible - new coach, new GM, and a terrible defensive hire combined into an epic failure.  I think we've seen since that they have learned from it.

This is the group I want to keep guiding the Vikings forward.