Vikings Offseason Thread

[Cap'n Piranha]

3 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

I'd guess fans of 31 other teams would think you're insane, but everyone watching the Vikings the past several years could easily empathize. It's been downright brutal in the middle.

Not sure I trade Darrisaw though unless the draft capital is significantly higher than I assume it is.

Maybe you can sucker TN into giving us #7 for Darrisaw and a third?  If so, you can either use #7 and next year's first to get to #3, or you can probably get either Alt or Fashanu (whichever LAC passes on, if mocks are to be trusted) to be a low-cost replacement with the potential to be as good, but should hopefully be at least less injured.

[nicksaviking]

9 minutes ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

Maybe you can sucker TN into giving us #7 for Darrisaw and a third?  If so, you can either use #7 and next year's first to get to #3, or you can probably get either Alt or Fashanu (whichever LAC passes on, if mocks are to be trusted) to be a low-cost replacement with the potential to be as good, but should hopefully be at least less injured.

Well if I can get #7 for that, sure. I guess I didn't think he'd have that kind of value, but I'm sure I don't have a good read on his value either.

[Cap'n Piranha]

3 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Well if I can get #7 for that, sure. I guess I didn't think he'd have that kind of value, but I'm sure I don't have a good read on his value either.

To be fair, that's me building his value off of being a borderline all-pro LT.  If that's true, he's (when healthy) one of the 20-30 most valuable non-QBs in the league.  and any player taken at #7 would be unlikely to be that good.  That said, he doesn't have a history of health, and he's about to get very expensive, so you would need to get someone who wants to bet on him being available, and wants to win now.

[gunnarthor]

The more I think about it, the more I think I want the Vikings to pick McCarthy. I'm seeing mocks with him going in the top 10 so there is no way he'll be there at 42. But he has some mobility and an excellent arm. The FO has Jefferson, Addison, and Hockensen for him, which is a pretty good safety net for a young QB to have. 

The draft has some depth at defense so they can probably get a good pass rusher or corner at 42 and with the increased salary cap, might be able to get some more pieces for Flores through free agency. But I don't really see a realistic scenario where the Vikings can move up into the top three. (Although I've already read a few articles about how Williams is too small for the NFL so if one of the big three falls out of the top 10, that'd be ok, too). 

But drafting McCarthy gives the team their QB of the future and allows them to spend money elsewhere. 

[Mike Sixel]

3 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

The more I think about it, the more I think I want the Vikings to pick McCarthy. I'm seeing mocks with him going in the top 10 so there is no way he'll be there at 42. But he has some mobility and an excellent arm. The FO has Jefferson, Addison, and Hockensen for him, which is a pretty good safety net for a young QB to have. 

The draft has some depth at defense so they can probably get a good pass rusher or corner at 42 and with the increased salary cap, might be able to get some more pieces for Flores through free agency. But I don't really see a realistic scenario where the Vikings can move up into the top three. (Although I've already read a few articles about how Williams is too small for the NFL so if one of the big three falls out of the top 10, that'd be ok, too). 

But drafting McCarthy gives the team their QB of the future and allows them to spend money elsewhere. 

If they re-do Hunter and JJ and let Kirk walk, they can easily sign 2-3 good FAs with this cap number (and moving Hunter and JJ money to the future). If they let Hunter and Kirk walk, going to be hard to sign GOOD FAs this year......IIRC.

[nicksaviking]

14 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

If they re-do Hunter and JJ and let Kirk walk, they can easily sign 2-3 good FAs with this cap number (and moving Hunter and JJ money to the future). If they let Hunter and Kirk walk, going to be hard to sign GOOD FAs this year......IIRC.

If that's the case, I concentrate on the interior OL. Those spots tend to be much cheaper than edge rushers, and interior OL guys who are still in their 20s should still be good for the foreseeable future.

[Vanimal46]

23 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

The more I think about it, the more I think I want the Vikings to pick McCarthy.

I wouldn’t say my track record is great for evaluating QBs, but I really don’t see what there is to like about McCarthy to elevate him to top 10 status. He looked like nothing more than a game manager in the games I watched this year. I watched all of their games at the end of the season thinking okay, maybe now they’ll rely on him more for the Big 10 championship game and the playoffs. Nope, he continued to hand the ball off 40+ times and throw maybe 20 passes a game. 

[RpR]

I stopped really following the Vikings a long time ago, but, what percentage of the 2023 Vikings will probably be playing for them in 2024?

When I was a youth, a pro team was a mostly complete unit for three to five or more years.

[Mike Sixel]

31 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

I wouldn’t say my track record is great for evaluating QBs, but I really don’t see what there is to like about McCarthy to elevate him to top 10 status. He looked like nothing more than a game manager in the games I watched this year. I watched all of their games at the end of the season thinking okay, maybe now they’ll rely on him more for the Big 10 championship game and the playoffs. Nope, he continued to hand the ball off 40+ times and throw maybe 20 passes a game. 

My concern also. 

[nicksaviking]

16 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

I wouldn’t say my track record is great for evaluating QBs, but I really don’t see what there is to like about McCarthy to elevate him to top 10 status. He looked like nothing more than a game manager in the games I watched this year. I watched all of their games at the end of the season thinking okay, maybe now they’ll rely on him more for the Big 10 championship game and the playoffs. Nope, he continued to hand the ball off 40+ times and throw maybe 20 passes a game. 

McCarthy is hard because Harbaugh is absolutely a clock manager offensive coach. He likes to use a big bell-cow RB, like Frank Gore, and reserve the passing for 3rd down. They don't throw to their running backs (which is why Zach Charbonnet transferred from Michigan), they really only target one receiver (Michael Crabtree in SF, Ronnie Bell in Mich) and they pepper the TE with intermediate passes. They did open the offense up a bit more this past year though and had two receivers getting regular targets.

So I don't know what to make of McCarthy. I will say that I didn't like his post game interviews because (and this is going to sound really, really terrible) he was really humble, reserved  and modest and I think the best NFL QBs tend to have the kind of swagger and over-confidence that should get them punched in the face ten minutes after walking into the bar. The guys who sound like McCarthy do tend to be the 'game manager' types who stick to the scripts and always run the play as designed, even if they get to the line of scrimmage and see that it should be improvised.

We're all 'Minnesota Nice' up here and I know athletes who don't follow that trait get roasted, but it's been a long time since the Vikings had a QB I probably couldn't stand to be in the same room with, and I'd rather switch to that personality just to see if there's actually something to it.

[Mike Sixel]

6 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

McCarthy is hard because Harbaugh is absolutely a clock manager offensive coach. He likes to use a big bell-cow RB, like Frank Gore, and reserve the passing for 3rd down. They don't throw to their running backs (which is why Zach Charbonnet transferred from Michigan), they really only target one receiver (Michael Crabtree in SF, Ronnie Bell in Mich) and they pepper the TE with intermediate passes. They did open the offense up a bit more this past year though and had two receivers getting regular targets.

So I don't know what to make of McCarthy. I will say that I didn't like his post game interviews because (and this is going to sound really, really terrible) he was really humble, reserved  and modest and I think the best NFL QBs tend to have the kind of swagger and over-confidence that should get them punched in the face ten minutes after walking into the bar. The guys who sound like McCarthy do tend to be the 'game manager' types who stick to the scripts and always run the play as designed, even if they get to the line of scrimmage and see that it should be improvised.

We're all 'Minnesota Nice' up here and I know athletes who don't follow that trait get roasted, but it's been a long time since the Vikings had a QB I probably couldn't stand to be in the same room with, and I'd rather switch to that personality just to see if there's actually something to it.

Ha. 

[Mike Sixel]

Mattison being released. 

[Danchat]

51 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Mattison being released. 

Turns out we actually save $3.3M from releasing him instead of only $600K, making it a no-brainer move. The contract was not initially reported correctly (another reason why when you hear contracts reported they can be very misleading).

[Vanimal46]

34 minutes ago, Danchat said:

Turns out we actually save $3.3M from releasing him instead of only $600K, making it a no-brainer move. The contract was not initially reported correctly (another reason why when you hear contracts reported they can be very misleading).

Going from $600k savings to $3.3 million savings is a nice surprise! Mattison is just a guy… Better off as a backup to someone more talented than him.  

[nicksaviking]

Probably should be expecting some new on Harrison Smith soon too I'd imagine.

[gunnarthor]

18 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

I wouldn’t say my track record is great for evaluating QBs, but I really don’t see what there is to like about McCarthy to elevate him to top 10 status. He looked like nothing more than a game manager in the games I watched this year. I watched all of their games at the end of the season thinking okay, maybe now they’ll rely on him more for the Big 10 championship game and the playoffs. Nope, he continued to hand the ball off 40+ times and throw maybe 20 passes a game. 

I get that and it's a fair concern. My thoughts are essentially this - He's only 21, he's only lost one game in college and has won the national championship game. He could go back to school in a more pass-friendly offense (either at Michigan or through the transfer) and show that he can dominate college secondaries and make himself the top pick in the draft next year, where we'd have no chance to draft him. He had a pretty good game against a great Alabama defense that will have two cornerbacks and an edge rusher that will all go in the top 20 in the upcoming draft (and a stud linebacker/edge that will go in the early second round).

Instead, draft guru's already have him as a potential top 10 pick and the fourth QB off the board. He'll almost certainly move up during the pre-draft combines where he could be gone before we pick at 11. He's got a strong arm, he's athletic, and the offense he's run isn't too dissimilar from some of the Vikings' pro-sets. Harbaugh and Kwisi have worked together and presumably have a similar understanding of football/schemes. Of all the QBs, I think he's the most logical to plug in to the offense from day one. 

We likely have a chance to nab what could be the first over-all pick next year, this year. But, yeah, the offense that Michigan used doesn't make this easy. If the FO does nab him and he fails, they'll be gone, too. So I assume the Vikings are doing a lot of due diligence on him. But I think he's going to be a pretty good NFL QB. 

[gunnarthor]

11 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Mattison being released. 

Pretty logical move but best of luck to him.

[nicksaviking]

Hadn't thought of this, but does releasing Mattison mean the Vikings are keeping Akers? Cutting him would save 1.2M (I believe), but that's half of what the Vikings saved on Mattison.

And I think Mattison is going to have a hard time in free agency. The list of free agent RBs is Derrick Henry, Saquon Barkley, Josh Jacobs, Tony Pollard, Austin Ekler, Devin Singletary, D'Andre Swift, A.J. Dillon, Gus Edwards, J.K. Dobbins, Antonio Gibson, Ezekiel Elliot, Zack Moss, Boston Scott, Rico Dowdle, D'onta Foreman and then a dozen other lesser RBs. Where does Mattison fit in that hierarchy? He's probably not top 10. Somewhere around the Ezekiel Elliot through D'onta Foreman tier?

[Mike Sixel]

If they draft QB and let Kirk go, they should sign a RB..... Even though I hate paying RBs

[nicksaviking]

2 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

If they draft QB and let Kirk go, they should sign a RB..... Even though I hate paying RBs

There's so dang many that they could get one cheap. 

I'd be interested in a couple of under the radar guys actually. Antonio Gibson and DeeJay Dallas can both catch the ball and have quite a bit less wear and tear due to getting crowded out of touches the last several years. If they want a bruiser, A.J. Dillon is still fairly young and seems like a guy who might have something to prove.

[Danchat]

12 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

Hadn't thought of this, but does releasing Mattison mean the Vikings are keeping Akers? Cutting him would save 1.2M (I believe), but that's half of what the Vikings saved on Mattison.

Akers is a free agent, and I suspect he doesn't sign until around August/September. He was middling before his second Achilles tear and isn't getting anything more than the veteran minimum.

8 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

I'd be interested in a couple of under the radar guys actually. Antonio Gibson and DeeJay Dallas can both catch the ball and have quite a bit less wear and tear due to getting crowded out of touches the last several years. If they want a bruiser, A.J. Dillon is still fairly young and seems like a guy who might have something to prove.

Gibson is a sleeper I like, effective in the passing game and has a history of being a good runner before landing in Ron Rivera's doghouse. Dallas is just a guy in my opinion, can handle 3rd downs and mostly plays special teams. Dillon just had a poor year (3.4 YPC, didn't go over 80 yards in any single game despite starting 6) so he could be brought in cheap. As you said there will be plenty of cheap options. I think they will add competition to the RB room very soon.

[nicksaviking]

11 hours ago, Danchat said:

Akers is a free agent, and I suspect he doesn't sign until around August/September. He was middling before his second Achilles tear and isn't getting anything more than the veteran minimum.

Gibson is a sleeper I like, effective in the passing game and has a history of being a good runner before landing in Ron Rivera's doghouse. Dallas is just a guy in my opinion, can handle 3rd downs and mostly plays special teams. Dillon just had a poor year (3.4 YPC, didn't go over 80 yards in any single game despite starting 6) so he could be brought in cheap. As you said there will be plenty of cheap options. I think they will add competition to the RB room very soon.

Looks like the 1.2M I was looking at was last years salary, but Akers is a restricted free agent, so the Vikings can bring him back should they choose. 
 

Id choose others over him, but I guess he wouldn’t be at the complete bottom of my list.

[Cap'n Piranha]

On 3/1/2024 at 7:02 AM, gunnarthor said:

I get that and it's a fair concern. My thoughts are essentially this - He's only 21, he's only lost one game in college and has won the national championship game. He could go back to school in a more pass-friendly offense (either at Michigan or through the transfer) and show that he can dominate college secondaries and make himself the top pick in the draft next year, where we'd have no chance to draft him. He had a pretty good game against a great Alabama defense that will have two cornerbacks and an edge rusher that will all go in the top 20 in the upcoming draft (and a stud linebacker/edge that will go in the early second round).

Instead, draft guru's already have him as a potential top 10 pick and the fourth QB off the board. He'll almost certainly move up during the pre-draft combines where he could be gone before we pick at 11. He's got a strong arm, he's athletic, and the offense he's run isn't too dissimilar from some of the Vikings' pro-sets. Harbaugh and Kwisi have worked together and presumably have a similar understanding of football/schemes. Of all the QBs, I think he's the most logical to plug in to the offense from day one. 

We likely have a chance to nab what could be the first over-all pick next year, this year. But, yeah, the offense that Michigan used doesn't make this easy. If the FO does nab him and he fails, they'll be gone, too. So I assume the Vikings are doing a lot of due diligence on him. But I think he's going to be a pretty good NFL QB. 

He is 21, that much is true.  For your other two points, it’s probably more accurate to say that Michigan only lost one game while he was there, and Michigan won a title.  I’m not so sure that McCarthy was the prime mover behind either of those things.

if he can go back to school and become the top pick, why not do that?  Probably because there’s a pretty good risk that outside of the system that featured the most dominant run game in college football he starts to struggle without the easy reads and simple coverages, along with the pressure of having to actually win games instead of just not lose them.

I don’t think needing an overtime period to get to 17 completions, 221 yards, and 27 points qualifies as “pretty good” even against a great defense.

If the draft gurus have him top 10, I’m sold.  Draft gurus are never wrong about players.

McCarthy might be a good NFL QB, but I think only if he lands on a team with a great O-Line and great run game (like BAL, SF, or DET).  The Vikings have neither of those things, which means he’d likely be overwhelmed here, and because of that, bad.

[gunnarthor]

12 hours ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

He is 21, that much is true.  For your other two points, it’s probably more accurate to say that Michigan only lost one game while he was there, and Michigan won a title.  I’m not so sure that McCarthy was the prime mover behind either of those things.

if he can go back to school and become the top pick, why not do that?  Probably because there’s a pretty good risk that outside of the system that featured the most dominant run game in college football he starts to struggle without the easy reads and simple coverages, along with the pressure of having to actually win games instead of just not lose them.

I don’t think needing an overtime period to get to 17 completions, 221 yards, and 27 points qualifies as “pretty good” even against a great defense.

If the draft gurus have him top 10, I’m sold.  Draft gurus are never wrong about players.

McCarthy might be a good NFL QB, but I think only if he lands on a team with a great O-Line and great run game (like BAL, SF, or DET).  The Vikings have neither of those things, which means he’d likely be overwhelmed here, and because of that, bad.

Well, he's already a top pick, I think most people in his shoes correctly decide to enter the draft. The money is too good to pass on.

While draft gurus aren't perfect, I don't think internet football experts are, either. Sounds like the Vikings met with McCarthy and other top QBs (including Williams). It's pretty clear they are doing their due diligence. It also seems like Cousins won't be coming back. So unless Daniels, Williams or Maye drop to 11 (they won't) or the Vikings trade with the Pats (pretty unlikely), they'll have to decide if Nix, McCarthy, Penix, or Sanders is the future.

Reports from the combine suggest that McCarthy did ok. Also it seems really unlikely that Dallas Turner will drop to the Vikings either (for those who thought drafting a defensive stud might be worth it at 11). 

https://www.mlive.com/wolverines/2024/03/how-jj-mccarthy-compared-to-other-nfl-combine-quarterbacks.html

https://theathletic.com/5313945/2024/03/04/nfl-combine-winners-jj-mccarthy-michael-penix-jr/

In any event, Vikings are in a tough spot. They only have a few picks in a loaded draft so trading down might be a real idea but with the QB problem, that also might not be a good idea. Should be a fun draft period though.

[Vanimal46]

One week until the deadline for Kirk, Hunter, and Davenport. My gut feel… 25% chance Kirk is back, less than 10% chance Hunter returns, and hopefully 0% chance Davenport is back. 

[Parfigliano]

Their in a bad spot with Cousins.  Keep him and their doomed to mediocrity.   Lose him and they get the same result.

[nicksaviking]

18 hours ago, Parfigliano said:

Their in a bad spot with Cousins.  Keep him and their doomed to mediocrity.   Lose him and they get the same result.

I don't think it's the same result. Should be really bad with hope for the future, or have an outside shot of being good right away if they nail a rookie QB who's NFL ready.  

Signing a Russell Wilson or Baker Mayfield probably dooms to to mediocrity.

[nicksaviking]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2024/03/05/nfl-free-agency-rumors-saquon-barkley/72859023007/

This piece says the Vikings are one of several teams that have reached out about trading for L'Jarius Sneed.

I mean, yeah, he's good, but a rebuilding team like the Vikings are in no place to give away draft capital for a cornerback. And corner backs are the RBs of the defensive side of the ball; all but the HOF type almost always peak during their rookie contracts.

[Mike Sixel]

32 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2024/03/05/nfl-free-agency-rumors-saquon-barkley/72859023007/

This piece says the Vikings are one of several teams that have reached out about trading for L'Jarius Sneed.

I mean, yeah, he's good, but a rebuilding team like the Vikings are in no place to give away draft capital for a cornerback. And corner backs are the RBs of the defensive side of the ball; all but the HOF type almost always peak during their rookie contracts.

Concur. I mean, later than a third round pick? Sure, I'd consider any starter for a 4th or later pick. Not that you can get him for that......

[nicksaviking]

35 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Concur. I mean, later than a third round pick? Sure, I'd consider any starter for a 4th or later pick. Not that you can get him for that......

Yeah,  I doubt KC franchises him unless they think they can get a 1st, or an early 2nd at worst.