Twins Add Clete Thomas, DFA Tyler Robertson

[Crackin' Wax]

Honestly, in my opinion, it was only a matter of time for Robertson. If his ineffectiveness was even too much for the Twins to overlook, there was no saving him.

[Shane Wahl]

One thing that is super clear to me after reading this thread and some of the 10,000+ pages of the Benson thread is that the Twins are in no way hesitating to drop their marginal players off the 40 man roster spot as needed.

 

Does make me wondering - do the Twins have a bumper crop of prospects that will be need to be added to the 40 man roster after the season?

 

There are quite a few prospects like Ortiz, Kepler, etc. that have to be added and there are some other guys like Albers and Watts who could make it as well.

[boylan]

His fastball(s) averaged between 88 and 89 last year, and even showed slight decline at the end of the year.

 

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/fgraphs/3223_P_FA_20130405.png

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/fgraphs/3223_P_FT_20130405.png

 

Not what my HDTV radar gun said last year. And, I'm uninterested in him at 88-89.

 

As an aside, Alex Burnett cleared waivers today and got out-righted to Des Moines.

[jokin]

Well, first off, he's 29.

 

If you didn't know the names but you were told you could have a 29 year old catcher who put up a .550 OPS in the majors last year and managed about .2 WAR (mostly b/c of his defense) or you could have a 25 year old OFer who, in 8 minor league seasons, has a .558 OPS against AAA pitching, who would you pick?

 

First off, johnny dakota is technically off on age 30 by all of 2 months (Drewbie is 30 on August 9th).

 

Second off, if your question was posed to me, I would either reply: 1) "None of the Above", or, 2) Ask for more information- because I would have logically concluded that someone was trying to "pull one over" on me.

[jokin]

Not what my HDTV radar gun said last year. And, I'm uninterested in him at 88-89.

 

As an aside, Alex Burnett cleared waivers today and got out-righted to Des Moines.

 

Des Moines, huh? Talk about almost coming full circle....!

[jokin]

We already have 14 pages of the Benson thread debating the worth of Butera... Do we need more?

 

Yes. When arguments are actually being made on this thread that

 

Drew Butera = Kurt Suzuki,

 

we definitely need more educational efforts to dissuade this line of thinking.

[jokin]

If you limit waiver claims, guys won't get claimed as much, and most will stay with their organizations. That's not a bad thing, I suppose. But part of the point of the waiver system is to give guys opportunities to play in the majors.

 

Exactly. 3 extended and all-expense-paid major league tryouts-- while still earning his contract. This isn't exactly 18th Century indentured servitude here.

[Guest USAFChief]

First off, johnny dakota is technically off on age 30 by all of 2 months (Drewbie is 30 on August 9th).

 

Second off, if your question was posed to me, I would either reply: 1) "None of the Above", or, 2) Ask for more information- because I would have logically concluded that someone was trying to "pull one over" on me.

 

I wonder if, when you asked for more info, he'd have been honest enough to include the .800+ OPS the OFer put up in the FSL and Eastern Leagues, both tough leagues to hit in. I wonder also if he would have mentioned "Twins minor league player of the year just a couple seasons ago. " I wonder if he'd have mentioned the recent injuries?

 

Nah, doubt it.

[old nurse]

Yes. When arguments are actually being made on this thread that

 

Drew Butera = Kurt Suzuki,

 

we definitely need more educational efforts to dissuade this line of thinking.

Please reread the original post again. The post merely stated that by an advanced statistical metric last year Butera was as valuable to his team as Suzuki was to his. Nothing about careers, only for last year.

[spideyo]

I have to say that I originally came down on the "tough ****" side of things. It's hard to have much sympathy for someone making a relatively large amount of money for doing things relatively not-very-well.

 

But I've come around to thinking that you may be onto something here. Teams gaming their 40-man to get organization filler while violating the spirit of the waiver claim doesn't seem very fair to the people involved. I like your solution; maybe allow two designations per season, but I think you're arguing your point well.

 

I'm starting to agree with you guys on this, but rather than limiting DFA's per season, it would make more sense to put the restriction directly on the waiver wire. Limiting DFA's could end be used to force a team to keep a guy on their roster who is out of options, wether or not any other team would actually claim him.

 

I think a better system would be requiring any player that is claimed off the waiver wire must remain on the active roster for like, 10-15 days minimum. This wouldn't completely eliminate team hopping guys like Burnett, but it would at least make it more likely that they'd actually get a few days to show their worth to that team

[jorgenswest]

I'm starting to agree with you guys on this, but rather than limiting DFA's per season, it would make more sense to put the restriction directly on the waiver wire. Limiting DFA's could end be used to force a team to keep a guy on their roster who is out of options, wether or not any other team would actually claim him.

 

I think a better system would be requiring any player that is claimed off the waiver wire must remain on the active roster for like, 10-15 days minimum. This wouldn't completely eliminate team hopping guys like Burnett, but it would at least make it more likely that they'd actually get a few days to show their worth to that team

 

They would still be able to remove him from their 40. For example, once the Blue Jays took Burnett off their roster he is returned to Minnesota off the 40. A provision should probably be included for any other team making an original claim where they would have a chance to use the claim and put him on their 40 before he is returned to Minnesota.

 

Two benefits...

 

-Burnett does not spend more than 1 period waiting out the DFA process.

 

-The Blue Jays or any team can't game the system making several claims only to release the player and hope no one follows with a claim.

 

In any case, something should be done to make sure players aren't losing 2 months of a key year.

 

The Twins added Florimon to the organization this way claiming him and designating him. The difference was that it was during the offseason and Florimon did not miss any time.

[gunnarthor]

I wonder if, when you asked for more info, he'd have been honest enough to include the .800+ OPS the OFer put up in the FSL and Eastern Leagues, both tough leagues to hit in. I wonder also if he would have mentioned "Twins minor league player of the year just a couple seasons ago. " I wonder if he'd have mentioned the recent injuries?

 

Nah, doubt it.

 

We could put that information in. We could mention that the OF was, once upon a time ranked the #99 and #100 best prospect by BA. We could mention his best minor league season, he finished 10th in the EL in OPS. We could mention that he's now played 4 seasons in AA. But at 25 it gets a little tough to talk about AA success as the point in keeping a guy around.

 

If you like Benson fine, I've never been a big fan of his. I thought he was pretty overrated and on the Twinkietown boards I used to argue with cmathewson about how Revere would be the better major leaguer in 2012. I don't care. I think you're wrong but it doesn't really matter. I can point out to his failings at AAA and in the majors, his high krate, his bad plate discipline. I can point to things like WAR which showed Butera's value in limited roles. I can point out that Benson was basically blocked by the high number of OF prospects we had and wouldn't be on the roster next year anyway. You can chose to believe them or not. The minors are full of guys like Benson, even ranked by BA, who simply didn't make it. Jeff Clement is playing at Rochester is one.

[joeboo_22]

Its not that I'm pumping Tyler Robertson as a future ace or anything. I just think giving up on a 25 year old lefty who has been a top level prospect early in his career and was respectable last year for the Twins out of the pen would get more then a few months with really bad velocity to try to figure it out.

 

On a 40 man roster that has B.J. Hermsenn (who is struggling really badly at AA), Cole DeVries (marginnal 5th starter at best), Drew Butera, and Chris Collebelo (journeyman 1B).

 

If you look at things you wait to develop, its lefties and toolsy centerfielders. Journeyman 5th starters can be found all over the place, AAA catchers can be found, journeyman 1B can be found. But lefties are hard to find and centerfielders are hard to find. Maybe nothing ever will become of Tyler Robertson and Joe Benson. But both have the potential to become 10X the players of the others I mentioned.

[jokin]

Please reread the original post again. The post merely stated that by an advanced statistical metric last year Butera was as valuable to his team as Suzuki was to his. Nothing about careers, only for last year.

 

I know exactly what was stated. The statement was midleading and/or useless, at best. It is pretty much agreed on both sides of the debate that the defensive component of the "advanced statistical metric" is useless.

[gunnarthor]

I know exactly what was stated. The statement was midleading and/or useless, at best. It is pretty much agreed on both sides of the debate that the defensive component of the "advanced statistical metric" is useless.

 

Oh, a lot of people would probably say that the defensive component isn't useless, rather it's hard to accurately measure. A real difference. Things like pitch framing, for instance, are just beginning to be measured. So it's possible that WAR under rates catchers. We don't know.

 

So we go with what we have. By WAR, Butera has some value as a backup catcher despite being a no-hit guy. Benson has not been able to hit above AA. It's possible it's for any reason other than lack of talent but we don't know. It might be b/c of his injury (that came after he failed in the majors and was demoted from AAA). It might be b/c the Twins aren't smart. And it might be b/c he simply can't hit advanced pitching. But people arguing that Benson is a better option than Butera have to create opinions to explain those reasons b/c the facts don't support it.

[Brad Swanson]

Its not that I'm pumping Tyler Robertson as a future ace or anything. I just think giving up on a 25 year old lefty who has been a top level prospect early in his career and was respectable last year for the Twins out of the pen would get more then a few months with really bad velocity to try to figure it out.

 

On a 40 man roster that has B.J. Hermsenn (who is struggling really badly at AA), Cole DeVries (marginnal 5th starter at best), Drew Butera, and Chris Collebelo (journeyman 1B).

 

If you look at things you wait to develop, its lefties and toolsy centerfielders. Journeyman 5th starters can be found all over the place, AAA catchers can be found, journeyman 1B can be found. But lefties are hard to find and centerfielders are hard to find. Maybe nothing ever will become of Tyler Robertson and Joe Benson. But both have the potential to become 10X the players of the others I mentioned.

 

I fully agree with this post. It's not only the guys who the Twins didn't release, but also the guys the Twins added to the 40-man to get to the point where they had to release Benson and Robertson over Hermsen, Butera and the like. Clete Thomas, P.J. Walters and even Sam Deduno are just marginal, replacement-level players. They will never be anything more than that. They might put up good AAA stats and they might have flashes of good play at the MLB level, but they'll never be a part of the future. These moves seem to be made with the idea of "win-now" but are being made with "lose-now" players.

 

It seems like shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic or whatever cliche you prefer.

[gunnarthor]

I fully agree with this post. It's not only the guys who the Twins didn't release, but also the guys the Twins added to the 40-man to get to the point where they had to release Benson and Robertson over Hermsen, Butera and the like. Clete Thomas, P.J. Walters and even Sam Deduno are just marginal, replacement-level players. They will never be anything more than that. They might put up good AAA stats and they might have flashes of good play at the MLB level, but they'll never be a part of the future. These moves seem to be made with the idea of "win-now" but are being made with "lose-now" players.

 

It seems like shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic or whatever cliche you prefer.

 

The reality is, most teams have AAAA/journey men at the end of their 40 man rosters. There isn't that much talent around baseball. The Orioles made the playoffs with Lew Ford on their active roster.

 

As already mentioned, the Twins have a number of guys who easily step into Robertson's place. Walters, Deduno are needed now. I admit, I don't like Hermsen but he's only 23 and has something like a 3.33 era in 30 AA starts. His lack of strike outs is alarming but he's a big guy, maybe you let him show you something in the pen first. There has been far too much discussion on Butera. Thomas gives the Twins someone to hold CF if they need to send Hicks to AAA.

 

Complaining that Benson, Robertson or Burnett are gone seems more like being contrarian than anything else. They are easily replaceable types who aren't really needed on this roster.

[Brad Swanson]

The reality is, most teams have AAAA/journey men at the end of their 40 man rosters. There isn't that much talent around baseball. The Orioles made the playoffs with Lew Ford on their active roster.

 

As already mentioned, the Twins have a number of guys who easily step into Robertson's place. Walters, Deduno are needed now. I admit, I don't like Hermsen but he's only 23 and has something like a 3.33 era in 30 AA starts. His lack of strike outs is alarming but he's a big guy, maybe you let him show you something in the pen first. There has been far too much discussion on Butera. Thomas gives the Twins someone to hold CF if they need to send Hicks to AAA.

 

Complaining that Benson, Robertson or Burnett are gone seems more like being contrarian than anything else. They are easily replaceable types who aren't really needed on this roster.

 

The only part of this that I disagree with is the idea that Benson is easily replaceable.

[cmathewson]

Perhaps I am more sensitive to this because I am myself in my cups, as they say, but it seems like this is a conversation fueled primarily by libation. Let me try to be clear despite my own libational excess:

 

Drew Butera never was and never will be as good as Kurt Suzuki. He is, however, valuable as a defensive catching backup with very little offensive value. It is a testament to the value of catchers that one who is so inept at hitting can nonetheless be valuable if he is adept at catching. Evaluating catching numerically will forever be as much an art as a science because of the multitude of variables.

 

Joe Benson has reached his upside, which is as a dominant AA player or a marginal AAA player. His upside would be much greater if he had ever learned to hit a curve ball. But like 90 percent of all prospects, alas, he never has. At age 25 and in his 10th year of trying, it is so unlikely that he ever learns to hit a curve ball that any team short on roster spots would be justified in letting him go.

 

Tyler Robertson is a tragic case. He had the makings of a great lefty reliever. Unfortunately, for some inexplicable reason, he lost his velocity in the offseason. This happens sometimes. But usually, if a guy gets back in the rhythm of pitching regularly, his velo comes back. It never did with Robertson. Hopefully it does and he can resume his pro carer. Until it does, a team that needs roster space is fully justified in letting any other team that wants to give him a chance have that chance.

 

Why are all these statements controversial?

[TheLeviathan]

At age 25 and in his 10th year of trying, it is so unlikely that he ever learns to hit a curve ball that any team short on roster spots would be justified in letting him go.

 

Why are all these statements controversial?

 

Well, the one above is because you still haven't provided anything but anecdote to support it.

[gunnarthor]

Perhaps I am more sensitive to this because I am myself in my cups, as they say, but it seems like this is a conversation fueled primarily by libation. Let me try to be clear despite my own libational excess:

 

You use big words in your libations.

[old nurse]

Well, the one above is because you still haven't provided anything but anecdote to support it.

LOL

Where is the proof that Benson can hit above AA?

[gunnarthor]

The only part of this that I disagree with is the idea that Benson is easily replaceable.

 

On the current 2013 pecking order, he was easily behind Willingham, Parmelee, Hicks, Doumit, Arcia, Maestro, Thomas, Ramirez, Herrmann and Colabello. Probably Richardson, too. Keep in mind that this was Benson's last option year so he had to be on the 25 man roster next year, as the 4th or 5th OFer. So he'd have to have jumped several guys while hoping guys below him didn't continue to pass him. And for what he gives you, I think a guy like Antoin Richardson could hold down the fort just as well.

 

The Twins have several good to great OF prospects in the pipeline, too. The only way it becomes relatively difficult to replace Benson is if you think he can quickly become more than a replacement level major leaguer. I don't even think he can be that.

[jokin]

1a) Oh, a lot of people would probably say that the defensive component isn't useless, rather it's hard to accurately measure. A real difference. Things like pitch framing, for instance, are just beginning to be measured. So it's possible that WAR under rates catchers. 1b)We don't know.

 

So we go with what we have. By WAR, Butera has some value as a backup catcher despite being a no-hit guy. Benson has not been able to hit above AA. It's possible it's for any reason other than lack of talent but we don't know. It might be b/c of his injury (2) that came after he failed in the majors and was demoted from AAA). It might be b/c the Twins aren't smart. And it might be b/c he simply can't hit advanced pitching. 3) But people arguing that Benson is a better option than Butera have to create opinions to explain those reasons b/c the facts don't support it.

 

1) You just stated one of the most archetypal distinctions without a difference of all time. You agree with the opposition that "we don't know" yet you and your side continue to claim that Butera is a "premium defensive catcher."

 

2) "Failed in the majors"? A mere 74 September PAs with a .672 OPS can by no stretch of the facts be termed a "failure". The issue of Benson's health remains to be answered, you failed to note that Benson's AA numbers after the demotion were just as bad as his AAA numbers- and AA was a level that he had clearly mastered just the year previous (2011).

 

3) This shoe actually fits better on the other foot.

After listing 3 "mights" around Benson and omitting verifiable facts that do support him....It seems the "opinions having been created" are the only "facts" currently being used in supporting Butera.

[TheLeviathan]

LOL

Where is the proof that Benson can hit above AA?

 

Where did I claim he could? I don't know why he can't. I could see off-speed pitches as a reason. (But that could be changeups, not curveballs too) It could be that he's had some nasty injuries the last two years. Or he just might have stunk in his first couple partial chances.

 

I don't know, but I'm not claiming to know. I'm simply asking someone claiming to know to give more some more information about his claim.

[Brad Swanson]

On the current 2013 pecking order, he was easily behind Willingham, Parmelee, Hicks, Doumit, Arcia, Maestro, Thomas, Ramirez, Herrmann and Colabello. Probably Richardson, too. Keep in mind that this was Benson's last option year so he had to be on the 25 man roster next year, as the 4th or 5th OFer. So he'd have to have jumped several guys while hoping guys below him didn't continue to pass him. And for what he gives you, I think a guy like Antoin Richardson could hold down the fort just as well.

 

The Twins have several good to great OF prospects in the pipeline, too. The only way it becomes relatively difficult to replace Benson is if you think he can quickly become more than a replacement level major leaguer. I don't even think he can be that.

 

This is all very fair, and I agree with you on that order of outfielders. I do think that if you use Thomas, Richardson and Benson as a sample, Benson would be lowest right now.

 

However, in three years, I would guess that only Benson has a realistic chance of helping an MLB team. For 2015-16, I'd put him ahead of Ramirez and Colabello too, and maybe even Mastro and Herrmann. I don't necessarily think losing Benson is crushing for the team or even the wrong short-term move, I just think there were better long-term moves that could have easily been made.

 

All that being said, Benson may have reached his ceiling two seasons ago. I think it was a bit premature to give up on him, but the Twins know a lot better than I do.

[Mike Sixel]

A great example of why sometimes other teams trade "top prospects" for proven players......

[Shane Wahl]

1) You just stated one of the most archetypal distinctions without a difference of all time. You agree with the opposition that "we don't know" yet you and your side continue to claim that Butera is a "premium defensive catcher."

 

2) "Failed in the majors"? A mere 74 September PAs with a .672 OPS can by no stretch of the facts be termed a "failure". The issue of Benson's health remains to be answered, you failed to note that Benson's AA numbers after the demotion were just as bad as his AAA numbers- and AA was a level that he had clearly mastered just the year previous (2011).

 

3) This shoe actually fits better on the other foot.

After listing 3 "mights" around Benson and omitting verifiable facts that do support him....It seems the "opinions having been created" are the only "facts" currently being used in supporting Butera.

 

Haha, all three points here are quite good. I really like it when people use September callups as a measuring stick. Good grief.

[Guest USAFChief]

While its possible, certainly not without precedent, its pretty rare for a player to post a high OPS in AA and then fail as a hitter at the AAA level.

[whydidnt]

I think this all comes down to an organizational philosophy and as usual the Twins take the most conservative, or safe approach. I think many of us look at guys like Benson or Robertson and figure that although they are worse today than many of the guys mentioned, they both had/have the physical gifts to be better than the players kept. For me, since all of these guys are fungible I would naturally keep the ones that have the highest upside, knowing full well that none of them will probably ever make it. The team is well below .500, the starting pitching is a wreck, so there isn't really any reason to worry about a contribution from Thomas, Butera, Richardson, Colabello, etc. this year. Why not drop one of them since none of them have any remote upside-- none of them will matter over the next couple of years when we hope the team improves. If there's just a 5% chance that Benson figures things out and regains what he showed in 2011, he's a guy that "could" help.

 

For me that's really the only reason I don't agree with the moves. I don't think Benson is going to be "that guy", but do think he has a more realistic shot at that than any of the flotsam kept instead of him. Why not gamble on someone like him over guys that really don't have any upside, especially when the team isn't going anywhere?