Game Thread: Twins (Varland) @ Blue Jays (Gausman), 6/11/23 @ 12:37 CT

[LewFordLives]

Just now, chpettit19 said:

He threw 38 pitches 2 days ago. There was 0% chance Duran was throwing today. They knew when they sent him out for the 10th on Friday they were finishing this series without Duran.

He's not made of glass. 

[Sutter50]

3 minutes ago, LewFordLives said:

Duran in the ninth. He was not used yesterday, they have an off day tomorrow. 

38 pitches Friday 

[rwilfong86]

10 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Who were the other options for the 8th and 9th? I don't like using Pagan in high leverage spots. I want him off the team because of it, but I don't see "several other options" to cover the last 2 innings of a 2 run game that were very encouraging.

You've got the option to leave Jax in. You've got the option to use Jorge Lopez. You've also got Winder. Each one is a better option than historically terrible Pagan in a high leverage situation. 

[Sutter50]

2 minutes ago, LewFordLives said:

He's not made of glass. 

 

Just now, Sutter50 said:

38 pitches Friday 

Sure burn him up and put him o the IL to win a game in June

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, LewFordLives said:

He's not made of glass. 

Come on. Guys get 4 days rest for 90 pitches, but you wanted him to have 1 day rest for 40? It's ok to be upset about the loss, but let's be realistic here. Duran wasn't going to pitch, and he shouldn't have been available. The pen isn't deep enough. We know that. It got them today. It won't be the last time. Stewart and Lopez were the 2 non-Pagan relievers I'd have gone with for the 8th and 9th, but Lopez doesn't make me feel any better than Pagan these days. But Duran wasn't an option. Blowing his arm out for 1 win isn't a good strategy.

[Sutter50]

2 minutes ago, rwilfong86 said:

You've got the option to leave Jax in. You've got the option to use Jorge Lopez. You've also got Winder. Each one is a better option than historically terrible Pagan in a high leverage situation. 

Keep reading how terrible Jorge Lopez is on this board

[rwilfong86]

11 minutes ago, Sutter50 said:

 

3 guys in the pen were not available today. Who should have pitched in the 8th?

3 better options

1) Leave Jax in

2) Jorge Lopez

3) Winder

[hitterscount]

Why would Duran be unavailable today? If Rocco is going to use him for 2 inning saves and he isn’t available for the next two games we are likely a .333 team … slightly better… maybe. This is what pulling starters with 80 pitches gets you… a strained bullpen. No excuses to lose a 6-1 lead. Another blown game, probably the 15th game they lost that they gave away. 
 

[rwilfong86]

1 minute ago, chpettit19 said:

Come on. Guys get 4 days rest for 90 pitches, but you wanted him to have 1 day rest for 40? It's ok to be upset about the loss, but let's be realistic here. Duran wasn't going to pitch, and he shouldn't have been available. The pen isn't deep enough. We know that. It got them today. It won't be the last time. Stewart and Lopez were the 2 non-Pagan relievers I'd have gone with for the 8th and 9th, but Lopez doesn't make me feel any better than Pagan these days. But Duran wasn't an option. Blowing his arm out for 1 win isn't a good strategy.

Agreed. Not bringing him in is the best decision for the long term.

[Sutter50]

Just now, rwilfong86 said:

3 better options

1) Leave Jax in

2) Jorge Lopez

3) Winder

Also I have read on this board how bad Jax is also.

The 20/20 hindsight is just incredible 

 

 

[chpettit19]

2 minutes ago, rwilfong86 said:

You've got the option to leave Jax in. You've got the option to use Jorge Lopez. You've also got Winder. Each one is a better option than historically terrible Pagan in a high leverage situation. 

I wouldn't call Winder a better option at all. He hasn't been good in AAA this year so why would we expect him to be good in a 2 run game in the 8th/9th when he hasn't even pitched up here in a while? Lopez is who I'd have gone with for the 8th (although leaving Jax in would've been an option, too), but I don't feel significantly better about that either. The pen was short today, and Varland didn't go deep enough because of the missed double play on the Vlad grounder. 

Sometimes a loss is just a loss. They don't all have to be Rocco's fault. Sometimes you just lose.

[rwilfong86]

2 minutes ago, Sutter50 said:

Keep reading how terrible Jorge Lopez is on this board

I really couldn't care less about what people write about Jorge Lopez on this website. 

[BiggestRoccoFan]

6 minutes ago, Sutter50 said:

What did Rocco do wrong?

 

Sure Lopez pitches the 8th. Then what? Pagan facing the top of the order? Really?

What did Rocco do right? 

What did Rocco do wrong? Well let's start with putting a dude into a situation he can succeed in which the 8th inning and a close game is not a good spot for Pagan to be in.

They could have thrown Duran in the 9th. Dude did not throw yesterday and we are off tomorrow. 

I guess the front office needs to get rid of Pagan so he is not available for Rocco to use.

 

[rwilfong86]

1 minute ago, chpettit19 said:

I wouldn't call Winder a better option at all. He hasn't been good in AAA this year so why would we expect him to be good in a 2 run game in the 8th/9th when he hasn't even pitched up here in a while? Lopez is who I'd have gone with for the 8th (although leaving Jax in would've been an option, too), but I don't feel significantly better about that either. The pen was short today, and Varland didn't go deep enough because of the missed double play on the Vlad grounder. 

Sometimes a loss is just a loss. They don't all have to be Rocco's fault. Sometimes you just lose.

I'm just mentioning Winder because he hadn't pitched recently. 

[Sutter50]

Just now, rwilfong86 said:

I really couldn't care less about what people write about Jorge Lopez on this website. 

I don't either 

[rwilfong86]

3 minutes ago, Sutter50 said:

Also I have read on this board how bad Jax is also.

The 20/20 hindsight is just incredible 

 

 

Did you watch the game when they mentioned Jax hadn't given up a run since something like May 27th?

[Sutter50]

Just now, BiggestRoccoFan said:

What did Rocco do right? 

What did Rocco do wrong? Well let's start with putting a dude into a situation he can succeed in which the 8th inning and a close game is not a good spot for Pagan to be in.

They could have thrown Duran in the 9th. Dude did not throw yesterday and we are off tomorrow. 

I guess the front office needs to get rid of Pagan so he is not available for Rocco to use.

 

 

1 minute ago, BiggestRoccoFan said:

What did Rocco do right? 

What did Rocco do wrong? Well let's start with putting a dude into a situation he can succeed in which the 8th inning and a close game is not a good spot for Pagan to be in.

They could have thrown Duran in the 9th. Dude did not throw yesterday and we are off tomorrow. 

I guess the front office needs to get rid of Pagan so he is not available for Rocco to use.

 

DURAN WAS NOT AVAILABLE 

[Craig Arko]

1 hour ago, ashbury said:

I think we do have to hold you accountable this afternoon.

I’ll turn in my sonic screwdriver and badge.

[Sutter50]

1 minute ago, rwilfong86 said:

Did you watch the game when they mentioned Jax hadn't given up a run since something like May 27th?

Yup also heard Pagan had 7 straight scoreless outings one less than Pagan

[chpettit19]

2 minutes ago, rwilfong86 said:

I'm just mentioning Winder because he hadn't pitched recently. 

But does that make him a better option? Cuz that's what was needed. Not just another option, but a better one. I don't think Winder is a better option at all.

[hitterscount]

As a Twin fan from Wisconsin I was forced to watch Counsel mismanage Hader and the BP for years. There has to be changes in personnel… 2 inning saves are not the answer. If Pagan is the best option on a close game we will be lucky to stay around.500

[BiggestRoccoFan]

24 minutes ago, Sutter50 said:

 

3 guys in the pen were not available today. Who should have pitched in the 8th?

Well make them available. They do have an off day tomorrow.

Start managing to today and worry about tomorrow, Tomorrow.

If you keep worrying about tomorrow and throwing away today it's not going to matter and Cleveland will win the division by 14 games again.

[chpettit19]

Just now, hitterscount said:

As a Twin fan from Wisconsin I was forced to watch Counsel mismanage Hader and the BP for years. There has to be changes in personnel… 2 inning saves are not the answer. If Pagan is the best option on a close game we will be lucky to stay around.500

It was 1 game. It's the 3rd truly high leverage inning he's thrown in the team's first 66 games. Let's have a little perspective.

[rwilfong86]

1 minute ago, chpettit19 said:

But does that make him a better option? Cuz that's what was needed. Not just another option, but a better one. I don't think Winder is a better option at all.

Considering Pagan has a horrible history of coughing up leads, I'm not sure how anyone else isn't a better option. 

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, BiggestRoccoFan said:

Well make them available. They do have an off day tomorrow.

Start managing to today and worry about tomorrow, Tomorrow.

If you keep worrying about tomorrow and throwing away today it's not going to matter and Cleveland will win the division by 14 games again.

Great way to get through 162 game season. No way that goes poorly at all.

[BiggestRoccoFan]

5 minutes ago, rwilfong86 said:

I'm just mentioning Winder because he hadn't pitched recently. 

Dude this is a horrible loss.

 

[Sutter50]

Just now, BiggestRoccoFan said:

Well make them available. They do have an off day tomorrow.

Start managing to today and worry about tomorrow, Tomorrow.

If you keep worrying about tomorrow and throwing away today it's not going to matter and Cleveland will win the division by 14 games 

Yup pitch em till their arms fall off. Got a sore arm? Rub a little dirt on ot and let's go!!

[chpettit19]

Just now, rwilfong86 said:

Considering Pagan has a horrible history of coughing up leads, I'm not sure how anyone else isn't a better option. 

Are you a better option? Am I? I mean come on. I don't want Pagan on the team. But let's be realistic about things here. He's thrown 3 high leverage innings in 66 games. They were short handed for 1 game. Why does every loss have to be some big thing? Can't we just say "dang, it sucks they were short handed today, and it's never ideal to have Pagan in a high leverage spot, just have to flush this L and go get'em Tuesday?"

[BiggestRoccoFan]

Just now, chpettit19 said:

Great way to get through 162 game season. No way that goes poorly at all.

It is.

Make your players play.

They are professionals. 

Stop coddling them.

 

[rwilfong86]

1 minute ago, chpettit19 said:

Are you a better option? Am I? I mean come on. I don't want Pagan on the team. But let's be realistic about things here. He's thrown 3 high leverage innings in 66 games. They were short handed for 1 game. Why does every loss have to be some big thing? Can't we just say "dang, it sucks they were short handed today, and it's never ideal to have Pagan in a high leverage spot, just have to flush this L and go get'em Tuesday?"

Considering we aren't on the 40 man roster that isn't a logical question, is it?