Game Thread: Yankees v Twins, 4/26 @ 12:10pm CT

[chpettit19]

10 minutes ago, Schmoeman5 said:

Billionaires gave been hiring bean counters for centuries. For increased profits and maximizing efficiency. I'm a retired truck driver who increased my company's productivity by 30% with common sense. I was in the field. Owners employ stats guys for 1 reason. And it's not to win games

And most of the "bean counters" who run/work in baseball ops were "in the field," and have common sense. Being smart, and good with numbers, doesn't automatically make you unathletic. Most of the folks in baseball ops departments played college ball (baseball or softball), a good number of them played professionally as well. Billy Beane was a first round pick. I'm not sure why there's this idea that the people running teams now never played the game. It's simply not true. I mean, that Rocco guy I hear so much about was a pretty decent player.

You know which team doesn't really have many "stats guys?" The Colorado Rockies. You know which teams have the most "stats guys?" The Yankees, Dodgers, Astros, Rays, and Braves. I promise you the "stats guys" are hired to win games.

[August J Gloop]

Seriously though. That game was cursed. They scored 6 runs in every game in the series vs the Yanks. The positives far outweighed the negatives in this series. 

[Squirrel]

1 hour ago, Original_JB said:

Thanks! I do and it does. Still would be nice to have it work as one would think it should though.

It all works for me. Sometimes clearing your browser helps? But if it persists start a thread in the Questions forum or PM Brock

[MABB1959]

Needed Buxtons bat today!

[ashbury]

14 minutes ago, MABB1959 said:

Needed Buxtons bat today!

Needed Joe Ryan to come back out and throw some zeroes at the Yankee lineup.  Oh, that Rocco, always resting his best players!

[USAFChief]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

 And the other thing many won't agree with me on is that I'd give his spot to Varland, not Ober, 

I'd go Varland as well.

But I wouldn't give Maeda 2 more starts. He's been pretty bad.

[Schmoeman5]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

And most of the "bean counters" who run/work in baseball ops were "in the field," and have common sense. Being smart, and good with numbers, doesn't automatically make you unathletic. Most of the folks in baseball ops departments played college ball (baseball or softball), a good number of them played professionally as well. Billy Beane was a first round pick. I'm not sure why there's this idea that the people running teams now never played the game. It's simply not true. I mean, that Rocco guy I hear so much about was a pretty decent player.

You know which team doesn't really have many "stats guys?" The Colorado Rockies. You know which teams have the most "stats guys?" The Yankees, Dodgers, Astros, Rays, and Braves. I promise you the "stats guys" are hired to win games.

We could go round and round on this. If analytics were the end all be all then guys like Mike Yaztremski who toiled in the minors for years would never be heard of. Or Wade who was claimed by the Giants and had a great 2021 season. How about Rooker. I think he has 6 homers 4 vs righthanders. In Minnesota if he was dh it was primarily vs lefties. How is that possible when the analytics say he has an x% chance of doing so. And turns it upside down. Those analytics give projections. They are right sometimes  but players need ample opportunities to establish a base line. And the variables aren't a constant either. Brian Kenny. King of analytics says wins aren't important. How so. If a pitcher is able to keep his team in let's just say 25 out of 30 starts and goes 18-5 like Verlander did last year. How can wins not be important. Sure sometimes you'll get big run production and have an off day and still get a win, but that's not the norm. He also says RBIs are over valued. If a guy drives in 100 runs, he's doing something right.. Today's analytics are given to the GMs for negotiating contracts.  And they will focus on all of the negatives. The agents will have the same numbers and their focus will point out all of the positives. Arreaz is another guy. High avg high obp and not much else Is what the Twins would say, but this year his slugging % is way up too. So which player is he? And I never said that these guy who collect and analyse the data are non baseball guys. Or unathletic. Every manager since the invention of baseball has had a book on players and their tendencies. It's just every so often they'd have a hunch and play off that hunch. That's not allowable today. If you don't follow the book, you'll be out of a job. I'm not anti Rocco either. I believe his hands are tied and most in game decisions are determined before the 1st pitch in daily meetings with Falvey and Levine. Have you ever noticed how the Twins don't post a lineup until a couple hours before the game. So unless you're Buxton or Correa the players don't know either. And I know that for a fact.

 

[MABB1959]

59 minutes ago, ashbury said:

Needed Joe Ryan to come back out and throw some zeroes at the Yankee lineup.  Oh, that Rocco, always resting his best players!

IMO, Buxton doesn’t need days off while DHing.  He was so pumped up after yesterday’s game.  Keep them going is the way most players get on a streak.   Could he really be exhausted or out for the season if he didn’t get  an extra day off?

[Aggies7]

4 minutes ago, MABB1959 said:

IMO, Buxton doesn’t need days off while DHing.  He was so pumped up after yesterday’s game.  Keep them going is the way most players get on a streak.   Could he really be exhausted or out for the season if he didn’t get  an extra day off?

Someone mentioned earlier that the twins rarely go on long winning streaks (like 6+ games). The days off are a big reason why. Rocco won’t ever say it but his lineups and pitching usage basically indicate his tendency towards throw away games. Heck, we won 3 in a row…giving a couple guys the day off will bode well down the road. More than a winning streak in April. I think that’s the logic lol

[ashbury]

2 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Someone mentioned earlier that the twins rarely go on long winning streaks (like 6+ games). The days off are a big reason why.

Debatable.  But even if so, if the team makes it to the playoffs, the days off will go away so there won't be any reason they can't sweep every series. 

[chpettit19]

51 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

I'd go Varland as well.

But I wouldn't give Maeda 2 more starts. He's been pretty bad.

I thought his first 2 starts were fine. Nothing to write home about, but not the end of the world either. I think a trip to the IL with some rehab starts is the answer, and I'm fine if those 2 more starts he gets are rehab starts and kind of determine his place moving forward.

[Schmoeman5]

1 minute ago, chpettit19 said:

I thought his first 2 starts were fine. Nothing to write home about, but not the end of the world either. I think a trip to the IL with some rehab starts is the answer, and I'm fine if those 2 more starts he gets are rehab starts and kind of determine his place moving forward.

I like the rehab aspect. The Twins can't afford to find out where he is in meaningful games

[chpettit19]

12 minutes ago, Schmoeman5 said:

We could go round and round on this. If analytics were the end all be all then guys like Mike Yaztremski who toiled in the minors for years would never be heard of. Or Wade who was claimed by the Giants and had a great 2021 season. How about Rooker. I think he has 6 homers 4 vs righthanders. In Minnesota if he was dh it was primarily vs lefties. How is that possible when the analytics say he has an x% chance of doing so. And turns it upside down. Those analytics give projections. They are right sometimes  but players need ample opportunities to establish a base line. And the variables aren't a constant either. Brian Kenny. King of analytics says wins aren't important. How so. If a pitcher is able to keep his team in let's just say 25 out of 30 starts and goes 18-5 like Verlander did last year. How can wins not be important. Sure sometimes you'll get big run production and have an off day and still get a win, but that's not the norm. He also says RBIs are over valued. If a guy drives in 100 runs, he's doing something right.. Today's analytics are given to the GMs for negotiating contracts.  And they will focus on all of the negatives. The agents will have the same numbers and their focus will point out all of the positives. Arreaz is another guy. High avg high obp and not much else Is what the Twins would say, but this year his slugging % is way up too. So which player is he? And I never said that these guy who collect and analyse the data are non baseball guys. Or unathletic. Every manager since the invention of baseball has had a book on players and their tendencies. It's just every so often they'd have a hunch and play off that hunch. That's not allowable today. If you don't follow the book, you'll be out of a job. I'm not anti Rocco either. I believe his hands are tied and most in game decisions are determined before the 1st pitch in daily meetings with Falvey and Levine. Have you ever noticed how the Twins don't post a lineup until a couple hours before the game. So unless you're Buxton or Correa the players don't know either. And I know that for a fact.

 

Nobody said analytics were the "end all be all." But if you don't use them you won't succeed in today's game. And it's not hard to see that.

Why do you assume Yaz 2.0, Wade, and Rooker weren't guys who got their chances because of analytics? Wade wasn't claimed, he was traded for. And he was traded for because of analytics. You say analytics are bad in Rooker's case because he'd be getting platooned, yet use one of the most platooned players in baseball in Wade as another example. The Giants wanted Wade because of his patience, and ability to get on base, because that's what the analytics say is important. In that "great 2021 season" he had 339 PAs against righties. 42 against lefties. I mean he's an absolute analytic darling. Rooker keeps getting chances because of his batted ball data. He hits the ball hard, and analytics say that's important so he keeps getting chances. And I hope he makes the most out of this one. I don't know enough about Yaz to speak on him. But 2 out of 3 of your anti-analytics examples are literally arguments for analytics and disprove your point.

I'm happy to go stat by stat through things with you, but all you're doing is showing you don't really understand what analytics are doing, or the points Kenny, and others, are trying to make. You just don't like the word analytics. Pitcher Wins, and RBIs, aren't "useful" because we have better stats that actually describe what you want them to. What you really care about is a pitcher "keeping their team in the game," or a hitter "getting clutch hits." Wins and RBIs aren't actually showing you those things the way you want them to be. Domingo German giving up 6 runs in 6 innings today shouldn't be something you look at and say "dang, sure impressed by German today," but he got a Win! That "stat" isn't useful if it doesn't actually tell you anything about the player's performance. As you said, it's something the agents use to try to get more money in negotiations. Jacob deGrom famously has terribly low win totals because his teams never score him runs. He was the best pitcher in baseball for half a decade. His Win total wouldn't make you think he was anything even above average. So, yeah, us "stat guys" wouldn't use wins to determine who's good and who's not. Because, as a stat, wins doesn't actually do that.

RBIs is really people wanting to know if guys are good at driving in runs. A counting stat there doesn't tell you that because there's too many variables outside their control that effect the stat. What you really want is to know their batting average with runners in scoring position. We track that now. It's easily accessible. So, yeah, us "stat guys" wouldn't use RBIs to determine who is good and who is not. Because, as a stat, RBIs doesn't actually do that. A team building a lineup based on RBI totals would lose to a team building a lineup based on BA w/RISP. So why should we care about RBI when we have a stat that can actually tell us what we want to know? Other than the history of the game, and nostalgia? Those stats aren't telling you what you want them to be, but you don't care because you just don't like the term analytics so you'd rather stick with worse data. To each their own.

I'd love to know what inside info you have about Rocco's communication with the players about their playing time. I'd love to know how you "know for a fact" that the players don't know. Always looking for more knowledge.

[MABB1959]

1 hour ago, Aggies7 said:

Someone mentioned earlier that the twins rarely go on long winning streaks (like 6+ games). The days off are a big reason why. Rocco won’t ever say it but his lineups and pitching usage basically indicate his tendency towards throw away games. Heck, we won 3 in a row…giving a couple guys the day off will bode well down the road. More than a winning streak in April. I think that’s the logic lol

Makes no sense to me. A win is the same in April is the same as a win in September.   Especially for this team.   

[stringer bell]

6 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Tough crowd in here. Did the Twins get swept?

Seriously though, lighten up a bit. It's one game of 162 and the Twins just won the season series against the Yankees for the first time in 22 years.

I drove into downtown and wasted two hours of my life at this dumpster fire of a game and I'm not half as mad as a bunch of people in this thread.

Me too!

[stringer bell]

2 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

Someone mentioned earlier that the twins rarely go on long winning streaks (like 6+ games). The days off are a big reason why. Rocco won’t ever say it but his lineups and pitching usage basically indicate his tendency towards throw away games. Heck, we won 3 in a row…giving a couple guys the day off will bode well down the road. More than a winning streak in April. I think that’s the logic lol

I think the reason why the Twins don't go on long winning steaks is pitching depth.

[stringer bell]

Reading the game thread after I got home from the game. Yes, bad defense and bad pitching are going to mean a loss about 90-99% of the time. Does Rocco concede games or "throwaways" as they've been called on this thread, of course not. Does he at least outwardly show confidence in guys on these threads have already deemed substandard or worse, yes, but I think every manager does that. 

I shake my head over Byron Buxton. Apparently, what most players would consider a minor surgery has at least a long recovery period or maybe he'll never be able to shake knee problems. Ronald Acuna Jr. had a torn ACL and leads all of baseball in stolen bases. Buxton has/had tendinitis and no longer freewheels and will be a DH for who know how long. I'm totally puzzled. 

Donovan Solano can hit, but not for power and gives back some of his offense with pretty poor defense. Not really a surprise, but he does make Nick Gordon look like a gold glover. Gallo has a long reach and he's pretty agile, but he didn't make a couple plays today. 

I am pretty sure Kenta Maeda needs rest and rehab. I don't know if that is enough to get him back in the rotation and for him to help in the bullpen. There are pretty good alternatives available in Ober and Varland. 

I think something might be wrong (still) with Correa's back. He hasn't looked comfortable at the plate, but he's been playing a good shortstop. If the light switch has turned on for Miranda, maybe it's worth absorbing a bad loss. 

The left handed corner conundrum continues. Until his o-fer today, Kepler had strung together enough decent games to get to the short side of average. Larnach's overall numbers are also in the average range, but he has reached a lot on walks and has a lot of RBI, which do count for something. I would like to see Alex Kirilloff ASAP believing that he can be hitting in the top half of the lineup for the rest of the decade and be both a run producer and a high OBP guy. Gallo is gonna play and from his performance he deserves it. As long as Buxton is the primary DH, we have too many left handed corner guys for the available positions.